Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[soupytwist]

I'd argue that Picard had the second best first season of any Star Trek show (behind TOS). 

[DoctorAction]

I felt they were great actors and some outstanding scenes in Picard S1. Seven was really cool. The doctor woman, Raffi, pilot dude, Android girl. The Riker/Troi scenes were incredibly well done. Some real flashes of brilliance.

Overall, I pretty much hated it. No need to restate why but I am interested to see what happens in S2. Different seasons are often very different in tone and quality.

[soupytwist]

I enjoy the idea of Star Fleet/The Federation going dark and Picard being the beacon of light.  I know some of this is down to bad and repetitive writing but Star Trek has been full a lot of corrupt Starfleet Admirals who have endorsed such things as forced relocation of populations, military coups, and genocide.  There has always seemed to be a shadiness to The Council and how they run things.

[Kotowboy]

Lower Decks is the only show at the moment that remembers that Star Trek was mostly a fun sci fi show. Not every episode of TNG was torture and death.

I didn't think Picard was as bad on second viewing. TNG was dreadful in Series 1 so it may get really good. Discovery took a few seasons to really find its footing.

Picard needed more episodes like Nepenthe. But they also need to not go overboard with TNG cameos.

Picard S2 looks like it might be all timey wimey so it could be fun. And hopefully it won't end in yet another Universe threatening disaster.

Which is basically a really lazy way of saying " you gotta stay tuned to see how this ends even though we haven't written it yet. "

[DoctorAction]

I'm down for light, darkness, family fun, violence, whatever. I truly believe Trek can be anything. I just want to be able to get behind the characters and be carried along.

[gmillerdrake]

I'd argue that Picard had the second best first season of any Star Trek show (behind TOS).

Oooh….That’s a bold claim. We all have our opinions but I just can’t see it. The writing on that season was brutal. It nearly destroyed the Picard character and struggled to make the others mildly interesting. Raffy may have been the single most horribly written and cast/acted Star Trek character to date. Just brutal in near every scene.

[Kotowboy]

Well to be fair they did kill Picard. If Q does make him human again then that will be incredibly lazy.

JLP needs to go through some existential crisis. It’s “him” but just his likeness and memories.

“HE” is dead.

[gmillerdrake]

The Riker/Troi scenes were incredibly well done.

Agreed. And that's because of the chemistry and familiarity of those characters/actors. While Picard was always 'the man'....in TNG they did a good enough job of building a cast of characters around him to where it all worked. S1 of 'picard' was filled with a bunch of characters that there was no reason to give a hoot about. We were supposed to believe from a flashback and a handful of conversations that Picard and Raffy had this long history together? There was zero chemistry there and IMO that's due to a failure of casting a capable actor. Michelle Hurd just wasn't compelling or believable....it wasn't pretty.

Santiago Cabrera was great as Rios......Jerry Ryan was on point as 7 of 9......Alison Pill was good as Agnes......but outside of those three there wasn't really any strong performances. Patrick Stuart was 'fine' as Picard but the writing he had to work with was pretty bad so I felt bad for him that this 'legendary' character he had created was just being thrown on screen with nothing of substance to solidify his place as a generational character. It only harmed that legacy.

Ehh....anyway, as I said I'll watch S2 because I love the genre and am a fan of ST. It can only get better from S1

[DoctorAction]

I think Patrick Stewart / Picard / Data were the biggest problems.

I saw Patrick Stewart but Picard just wasn't there. Some whispering old guy who does nothing is not JLP, imo. So dull. Patrick had plenty of input into the show so he doesn't get a free pass from me on that.

And Data? I wish he'd not been in it at all, and instead focus more on interactions with android whatsername. Even then, rehashing the android / Data thing was super boring to me.

[Kotowboy]

The only reason Data is in it - is because Brent Spiner loves himself.

Every TNG movie was about Picard and Data. I'm sure i read that Spiner and Stewart were executive producers on all 4 TNG movies so of course

every film will be about them.

[DoctorAction]

Ah. Didn't know that.

[soupytwist]

TNG is like comfort food - you can turn on.any episode and everything will be as it should be, characters remain the same with their couple of traits.  Data will still want to be human, Picard will be cultured, Worf will get angry at some point and Troi will sense something extremely obvious.  A lot of the episodes will be pretty interchangable, sometimes you will get something amazing (4 lights) and sometimes you'll get a big laugh (merry man).  But mostly the episodes write themselves because nothing has any effect on the show or characters.

Troi in Picard for that one episode was by far most a real person than she ever was in TNG (drunk Troi in first contact is the only other time she remotely seemed real).  Picard himself is an old man broken by what he considers a betrayal of Star Trek - the very thing he dedicated his life too, now he's found his purpose again.

I really hope they keep golem Picard - firstly because it pisses off the 'robbenberry will be turning in his grave' brigade,  and secondly because any timey wimey, god power, he actually downloaded himself in another person and his body is regrowning on genesis planet and when it reaches maturity they can reload it back - would be bullshit. 

[Kotowboy]

Yeah it's so odd. It made me feel icky for some reason. Picard is dead. He's just a copy of himself.

It's like whatever happens now they can go - doesn't matter - not real Picard.

[Progmetty]

Got time for some TNG again, so I dove right back where I left off!

TNG - S4E2 - Family

What a beauty, fine world building and character development here. I did not expect to pick up where we left off, in the aftermath of the Borg incident, but I very much appreciated it.

"They took everything I was. They used me to kill and to destroy, and I couldn't stop them. I should have been able to stop them! I tried. I tried so hard, but I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't good enough." Picard

That was tough to watch, and fuckin bravo Patrick Stewart again, of course. It was also tough to watch since I know from you guys that the Borg doesn't amount to anything great in the future of the show. Maybe it's good that I already know that so I wouldn't be disappointed later, and we already got a powerful run of episodes out of them.

I thought Jack Crusher's message to Wesley was touching and nicely done. It engaged me and I don't even like Wesley.
Speaking of which, I might be coming around on Wesley, in his current form as an adult insign as of season 4, he's fine as long as he's out of the plot's focus.

Hey Worf has eastern European parents! So many things make sense now  , jk. Loved them, can't imagine what it must've been like for them to raise him, can you imagine teenage Worf? I can't, cause the current Worf behaves like an angry teenager most of the time so I can't imagine a worse version of that heh
They felt real, much more real than Troi's mom whatsername ever was.

My biggest problem with the episode is that it conflicts with my head cannon where I convinced myself that Picard is English, not French, because as I've said here before; it's fuckin ridiclous to try to pass off Patrick Stewart, one of the most proper English gentlemen I've ever seen on screen, as French. This episode relentlessly kicked my head cannon down, but I'm working to rebuild it fast.

Robert Picard maybe an asshole, but he's spot on when it comes to his dislike of the Replicator. I agree with him, but for different reasons. Mainly cause I think obesity would skyrocket within weeks of the release of this invention, I personally know I won't stop eating. The only reason I'm not morbidly obese right now is that I'm usually too lazy to cook or go eat somewhere, but still manage to be fat though heh

Some visual elements of this episode impressed me as well, like this shot of Picard's town, as he's walking away from his brother. By today's standard it may be slightly off, but definitely - and surprisingly- not too "off". The backdrop and how it blends in the scene is pretty great for 1990 grade TV CGI, I thought.

[soupytwist]

Yeah it's so odd. It made me feel icky for some reason. Picard is dead. He's just a copy of himself.

Transporter technology in Star Trek pretty much does this anyway, the existence of Thomas Riker proves this.

[Kotowboy]

Yes exactly. But at least that's an exact microscopic recreation of YOU. Picard now is just a blank disc with his memories.

Some people would argue that the Transporter is not even a copy but it's YOU - broken down and rebuilt - not copied and pasted.

But yeah essentially the same thing.

Mike from RLM said it best. With Transporters and holodecks - how is everyone on Enterprise not having existential panic attacks 24/7 

[Progmetty]

My remarks aren't as comprehensive when I watch a whole bunch of episodes over a couple of days, but here goes what I remember: 

TNG - S4E3 - Brothers

The existential questions thrown around in this episode are pretty cool, but were very superficially examined. Things like immortality through continuity and how centiant can Data really be, and how would it affect his behaviour.

Also, does Lore having emotions and feeling make him less or more valuable, in human terms, than Data? Possibly a lot to unpack there, the kinda themes Westworld and SOMA explore.

So, Data has a homing device, which takes over him completely when activated and can prompt him to do anything. Data is capable of taking over the Enterprise and rendering the entire crew helpless. Lore knows about the homing device and he's still out there. Therefore I'm hoping they'll do something interesting with that one day.

Data continues to be a fascinating character and Brent Spiner continues to be amazing and very entertaining to watch.

6/10

TNG - S4E4 - Suddenly Human

Eh.. this one felt like an early season 3 episode. I know they need to return to bottle episodes, cause this the 90's after all and season-long arcs were still a little uncharted and worrisome as far as ratings go. Brother was a good bottle episode because it had Data as it's main focus, which was a good way to slowly lead us away from The Best of Both Worlds/Family continuity. But this one just didn't click for me.

Not much that I recall wanting to write about here.

3/10

TNG - S4E5 - Remember Me

Ok hard to forget this one.
The Twilight Zone kinda premise was very intriguing at first, I really wanted to find out what's going on before the episode tells me. All my guesses fell flat, just like the reveal.

Like I said, very intriguing and highly entertaining at first. The last third of the episode was pretty cringy, the stuff with Wesley and the traveler, the scenes with Beverly trying to figure out what to do after everyone was gone and finally the resolve, was all very shaky and badly executed.

It didn't help that McFadden is an abysmal actress. Just. Fuckin. Horrible. Her performance is as weak as it's ever been. I used to refer to her as Kay Parker but I've seen Parker do better acting than this so I'm gonna be fair to her and stop making the reference.

I'm trying to think which character/actor would have served this plot better, maybe La Forge, they needed that connection with Wesley though. Troi? She's got Riker, but the actress isn't that much better than McFadden either.

You know, writing this now, I'm still not sure what the resolve of the plot meant. Did the warp bubble make her hallucinate everything that happened while inside it? Or did the warp bubble actually create a copy of reality, with Beverly at the center of it, which then shrunk as the bubble shrank? How did Wesley and the Traveler's Jedi shit factor into her extraction? Was that a spiritual thing?

I get and appreciate what they were going for with the remembrance theme and all, but it didn't really hit the mark for me.

4/10

TNG - S4E6 - Legacy

So much 80's hair, just... so much.
I'd wager that everyone we saw on Turkana IV was also on Shredder's street gang in 1990 Ninja Turtles movie.

Is it me or have we come across a very similar plot before? I really feel like I've seen something like this on TOS.

I didn't hate this episode, I was pretty indifferent to it as I was watching. You could easily figure out everything that was gonna happen within the first 20 minutes or so.

However, there are some problems that this episode present to the world building in the broader sense. I'm talking mainly about how the federation operates and deals with it's colonies. So Turkana IV was a colony where the federation resettled humans, these humans formed a civilization and government, then over the years; civil war broke out and it all fell apart, violence, "rape gang" and mass murder, ok. Why doesn't the federation interfere? I mean, this is not a prime directive thing, these are the people YOU resettled here, your colony, within your jurisdiction. Their independence became invalid as soon as their civil government fell apart and a continuous state of war became the norm.

Best thing about this episode: Data's poker face, priceless!

4/10

[El Barto]

My remarks aren't as comprehensive when I watch a whole bunch of episodes over a couple of days, but here goes what I remember: 

You're in a fairly awful stretch of S4. The good news is that it'll turn the corner pretty soon. The second half of S4 has some great stuff in it.

I generally agree with your assessment of these. Where we differ is Brothers, which I thought was terrible. Data is a great character, and Spiner is great at making him work, but Lore, and all of the other characters Spiner plays are just awful. I guess you've only seen him play 3 "Soong" characters. Watch the list continue to grow and you'll come to hate Spiner as much as the rest of us. Really, anytime he has to step outside of Data he's pretty bad.

[YtseJam]

Watch the list continue to grow and you'll come to hate Spiner as much as the rest of us. Really, anytime he has to step outside of Data he's pretty bad.

  Who is the rest of us? Spiner did such an excellent job carrying an otherwise ridiculous role, turning them into dynamic characters. No one could be a better Data and his related characters. Anyone who hates him and his roles outside of Data, dare yourself to do better. What would you have done better? All hail Spiner 

[DoctorAction]

This brings me back again to my point about judging the new serieseseses. There is tons of awful Trek before we get to Discovery and Picard. Trek has always been very variable in quality (and to a lesser degree in content and style).

I'd vote for DS9 as by far the most consistent in quality.

[Kotowboy]

  my absolute favourite argument is " Oh you don't like [actor] ? Where's YOUR billion dollar movie ? ". As if you have to be hugely successful at something before you can criticise.

Nobody ever says "  Oh Dream Theater are your fave band ? Where's YOUR million selling album ? "

You don't have to be a successful actor to realise that Brent Spiner is incredibly limited as an actor.

Any role that isn't Data usually had that exact same nasal whine and the scoff at the beginning of every sentence.

[El Barto]

Watch the list continue to grow and you'll come to hate Spiner as much as the rest of us. Really, anytime he has to step outside of Data he's pretty bad.

  Who is the rest of us? Spiner did such an excellent job carrying an otherwise ridiculous role, turning them into dynamic characters. No one could be a better Data and his related characters. Anyone who hates him and his roles outside of Data, dare yourself to do better. What would you have done better? All hail Spiner 

While certainly not universal, I think it's generally accepted round these parts that Spiner is very limited. He is Data; he essentially created the character and because of what we know Data to now be, you're right that nobody could do it better. Like most Trek actors, though, asked to step outside of the roles they created they don't do so well. In his case, several of them are quite honestly awful. Hell, the fact that Kowtowboy and I actually agree on this point is really quite telling. 

[Adami]

I'm gonna agree and disagree with Bart on different points. I agree that Spiner was largely terrible outside of Data (within ST, he was fantastic in Out to Sea). But I disagree with the assumption that people are unsurprisingly good when they had to essentially create the character. We're not talking about how good Sirtis was as Troi or how good Gates was as Crusher or even Wil as Crusher. They had as much control and originality over those characters as Spiner did and they were (mostly) not very good. So I want to give Spiner more credit for how good he was as Data and not dismiss it as "he created the character and thus could only be good at it."

[DoctorAction]

It's not unusual for actors to be one trick ponies. And as long as you dig that one trick then it's all good, right? I don't like Spiner's performances but I think he delivers the goods as Data.

Just watched Lower Decks S02E04 - great fun.

[Kotowboy]

Whilst I think every character he did outside of Data ( including Data with emotion chip. same mannerisms and whiny voice ).. was pretty much the exact same...

..Data was a masterpiece. You truly believe he is an android. He absolutely sells it without resorting to the 80s cliche of HELLO. I AM A ROBOT. And jerky movements.

Even when Data was 'malfunctioning' he just sort of twitched a bit. Possibly the greatest portrayal of a humanoid machine on screen imo.

[El Barto]

I'm gonna agree and disagree with Bart on different points. I agree that Spiner was largely terrible outside of Data (within ST, he was fantastic in Out to Sea). But I disagree with the assumption that people are unsurprisingly good when they had to essentially create the character. We're not talking about how good Sirtis was as Troi or how good Gates was as Crusher or even Wil as Crusher. They had as much control and originality over those characters as Spiner did and they were (mostly) not very good. So I want to give Spiner more credit for how good he was as Data and not dismiss it as "he created the character and thus could only be good at it."

I think that might have something to do with the fact that they were both weak characters. I think there's a recurring theme of distinctly average, if not bad actors being brilliant at portraying the actors they create. Spiner is just one. Shatner. Avery Brooks. Dorn was terrible. I thought Siddig was perfect as Bashir, but he might have been the worst of the lot. Just watch any mirror universe episode and you're in for some truly awful acting. The reality is that, so long as you get to keep at it for a while, creating a character will always be easier than portraying a different one, and that often hides a lack of real talent.

Whilst I think every character he did outside of Data ( including Data with emotion chip. same mannerisms and whiny voice ).. was pretty much the exact same...

Absolutely. I'm through being your puppet!

[jammindude]

I thought Spiner killed it on the Matthau/Lemon vehicle Out to Sea as the baddie cruise director.

Whitest version of Oye Como Va I’ve ever seen in my life!!! 

https://youtu.be/xNM4X1nIiHw

[Kotowboy]

And Data singing in TNG or Nemesis or telling jokes in Generations cause you know Spiner went to Rick Berman and said " You know I can sing right ? And i'm a funny guy..I think Data should sing or tell jokes.."

He's 100% the Shatner of TNG.... Says he's done with Star Trek then comes back to it at the slightest suggestion of money.

Bill Shatner : Ugh - i've done more than Star Trek you know...

People aren't paying attention to him anymore : " Hey remember when I was Jim Kirk "

[Progmetty]

I generally agree with your assessment of these. Where we differ is Brothers, which I thought was terrible. Data is a great character, and Spiner is great at making him work, but Lore, and all of the other characters Spiner plays are just awful. I guess you've only seen him play 3 "Soong" characters. Watch the list continue to grow and you'll come to hate Spiner as much as the rest of us. Really, anytime he has to step outside of Data he's pretty bad.

You just inadvertently blew my mind with the revelation that Spiner played Soong as well. I read your post, thought "What does he mean 3?" and google it, I had no idea Spiner was Soong too!
Even with heavy make-up I usually recognize an actor's trait or tone of voice, but I genuinely thought there was some 90's random guest-star playing Soong.
Also makes me really appreciate the editing work done here; the scenes with Soong and Data were smooth as fuck. They didn't really lean on the obvious 70's/80's/90's trick of having the two characters stand across the room from each other and stand in front of each other if need be, but never cross or walk past each other. And that's another props I gotta give, this time to the casting director who got Spiner's body double, these people rarely pass undetected, in that era of TV there was usually only two settings for the body double thing 1-Bad 2-Laughable.

I'll take your word for the idea that Spiner doesn't work out as good later, but for now I'm pretty pleased with him 

[Kotowboy]

  I love seeing it when it's supposed to be the same actor twice and the one you see from behind is so obviously a completely different actor.

That or it's really bad compositing . Thomas and Will Riker looked ok but Star trek VI looked terrible

" Shoot him he's the one! " Pointing nowhere near Kirk. TNG probably had a bigger budget than The Undiscovered Country.

[El Barto]

I love seeing it when it's supposed to be the same actor twice and the one you see from behind is so obviously a completely different actor.

That or it's really bad compositing . Thomas and Will Riker looked ok but Star trek VI looked terrible

" Shoot him he's the one! " Pointing nowhere near Kirk. TNG probably had a bigger budget than The Undiscovered Country.

Maybe, but "not me you idiot, him" was one of Kirk's finest moments, simply because it worked. 

[Kotowboy]

Yes but you could argue that eyepatch guy knew exactly which one was Martia and wanted to kill her anyway and gloat to Kirk.

[Adami]

Yes but you could argue that eyepatch guy knew exactly which one was Martia and wanted to kill her anyway and gloat to Kirk.

Could you?

I assume if anything the dude didn’t care who he shot. He wanted Kirk dead anyway. Kirk just got lucky.

[Kotowboy]

Could you?

Well I said it so It must be wrong.

[jammindude]

Could you?

Well I said it so It must be wrong.

Well…ya!