Author Topic: Star Trek: Thread Space 9  (Read 270905 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2485 on: May 28, 2020, 09:48:08 AM »
Well, I'm not sure what your criteria for that list is, so I can't argue with what I see as very odd choices, but again they might make perfect sense given the criteria. But it's an interesting idea. Since I have to watch all but three of the movies as part of my rewatch anyway, I'll do a similar thing.

Want to

ST: TMP
ST: TROK
ST: TSFS
ST: TVH
ST: TUD
ST: Generations
ST: First Contact

Meh on
ST: TFF
ST: Insurrection
ST: Nemesis

Don't want to and glad I don't have to
ST: 2009
STID
STB
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2486 on: May 28, 2020, 04:39:46 PM »
They definitely don't make any sense. I'm not really that kind of guy.  ;) But there are often certain scenes or lines in movies, shows (or music) where a certain aspect really resonates with me, and that usually swings it for me. Or the other way.

I'll explain a couple of choices.

ST5 is generally rated really low. But as a young child i kind of played with the idea that you might be able to fly a spaceship far enough to find God, so wow! That film definitely worked for me. I never believed in God, btw, even as a child but i liked the idea. It has some great acting and chemistry by the main cast. The enterprise is lovely. "Damn you, sir. You will try." "I need my pain."

Never enjoyed TVH. Spock is empty. They're on earth. The whales. There's no enterprise. The whales woman. It's all really kooky, cringy comedy. I don't get why it's usually so liked.

You should watch the 2009 one. The cast really gel together. And Leonard Nimoy is in it tons. It's by far the best of the new films, and much better than many of the old ones.

All just random opinions, of course.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2487 on: May 28, 2020, 05:17:49 PM »
Oh I've seen ST 2009. It wasn't...bad. It just felt so Star Wars (which makes sense given the team in charge) that I couldn't connect with much. It had good moments. Karl Urban was fantastic and I generally liked Chris Pine. But a lot of the plot was just dumb and fast (which seem to plague a lot of JJ films) for the sake of moving from point A to point B without consideration for logic that I just shook my head a lot. And while a lot of the other ST has similar issues at times, I was invested enough in the characters that I looked past it, but not for the new crew.

I never finished Into Darkness cause what I saw was just trash. And Beyond was fine for the first 2/3 then garbage for the last 3rd.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2488 on: May 29, 2020, 12:35:28 AM »
Ah, right. Got it.  :tup

Into Darkness had many, err, surprising choices. To try and reboot such a classic movie and scenes without having earned all that informed TWOK was a shame.

I just love the cast in those films.

Also, there is this habit in newer Trek that they have to look back often. Discovery was in the past, Enterprise was in the past, STID was a remake of TWOK. I remember thinking after that one, fine, you've established this team, now please just give them a new thing to discover out there in space.

Thinking about it, Voyager may be successful as the setting is so right.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2489 on: May 29, 2020, 03:36:28 AM »
Quite liked Insurrection. I felt it was fairly quiet, which was nice for a movie. Felt a lot like an episode to me.


The problem is the good guys 'The Bak'u' are total wankers.  There are like 600 of them and they want the entire planet to themselves - and they aren't even indigenous to the planet.   They kick the badguys 'The Son'a' of the planet (not sure how as the Bak'u are supposed to be peace loving, renouncing technology hippy dicks) because the Son'a  want to embrace the fountain of youth and actually make something of the gift.

The fact the enterprise crew sides with the Bak'u is wrong.  And then we have Star Fleet represented by yet another evil admiral (seriously does Star Fleet have more evil old white men in charge than the Trump administration right now?) acting all cloak and dagger (aka not remotely Star Fleet).

Basically all the motivations of all factions are totally wrong.  Throw in the cheap looking production (seriously looks like some one changed the camera lens for the bottom of a milk bottle).  The fact hardly any of the cast get anything to do (Worf gets a zit, Troi and Crusher talk about their tits...).  The action is dull, the story even if the motivations made sense would still be boring.  Nothing remotely interesting or memorable happens in the dirge - that's why it's the worst Star Trek for me anyway.

As for my order.

Khan.
ST09
First Contact
Undiscovered Country
Into Darkness
Search For Spock.
Generations.
Beyond
Final Frontier
Nemesis
Motion Picture.
Voyage Home.
Insurrections.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 04:38:55 AM by soupytwist »

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2490 on: May 29, 2020, 08:26:58 AM »
Lists... it's what we do.

The Wrath of Khan
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Generations
Nemesis
Voyage Home
Search For Spock
ST09
Beyond
Into Darkness
Insurrection
Final Frontier
Motion Picture (it's last largely because I have very little recollection of it)

I'm weird... I like Nemesis.  I thought Hardy's performance was very good.  The Voyage Home is very 'campy', but I enjoyed that divergence that the franchise took.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2491 on: May 29, 2020, 09:20:36 AM »
Quite liked Insurrection. I felt it was fairly quiet, which was nice for a movie. Felt a lot like an episode to me.


The problem is the good guys 'The Bak'u' are total wankers.  There are like 600 of them and they want the entire planet to themselves - and they aren't even indigenous to the planet.   They kick the badguys 'The Son'a' of the planet (not sure how as the Bak'u are supposed to be peace loving, renouncing technology hippy dicks) because the Son'a  want to embrace the fountain of youth and actually make something of the gift.

The fact the enterprise crew sides with the Bak'u is wrong.  And then we have Star Fleet represented by yet another evil admiral (seriously does Star Fleet have more evil old white men in charge than the Trump administration right now?) acting all cloak and dagger (aka not remotely Star Fleet).

Basically all the motivations of all factions are totally wrong.  Throw in the cheap looking production (seriously looks like some one changed the camera lens for the bottom of a milk bottle).  The fact hardly any of the cast get anything to do (Worf gets a zit, Troi and Crusher talk about their tits...).  The action is dull, the story even if the motivations made sense would still be boring.  Nothing remotely interesting or memorable happens in the dirge - that's why it's the worst Star Trek for me anyway.
/quote]

I have to agree with some of this. Except maybe the Bak'u stuff. It's been a bit since I've seen it, but I don't remember them kicking the people off the planet as much as them leaving. But I might have it wrong. But yea, you're right that it's a whole damn planet. ST and (and most sci-fi shows) have the same issue of portraying a whole planet as one small town. Hell, the long faced dudes could just move 100 miles away and should be fine. Though I can't agree with you thinking of the Bak'u as villains. I think the federation sided with them because they weren't the ones trying to actually commit genocide.

But you're totally right about Star Fleet. In fact....ironically....that's very similar (though on a smaller scale) to some of my issues with Star Fleet in Picard. It's all horrible and such.

Also agree that the movies tended to focus too much on Picard and Data. Everyone else tended get the shaft in the last two movies, which is a real shame.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2492 on: May 29, 2020, 12:30:32 PM »
Yeah. Data generally annoys me. And has always looked completely crap. I have no idea why they've spent so much time on him.

I liked the drinking scene in Generations, though.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2493 on: May 29, 2020, 12:48:34 PM »
Quite liked Insurrection. I felt it was fairly quiet, which was nice for a movie. Felt a lot like an episode to me.


The problem is the good guys 'The Bak'u' are total wankers.  There are like 600 of them and they want the entire planet to themselves - and they aren't even indigenous to the planet.   They kick the badguys 'The Son'a' of the planet (not sure how as the Bak'u are supposed to be peace loving, renouncing technology hippy dicks) because the Son'a  want to embrace the fountain of youth and actually make something of the gift.

The fact the enterprise crew sides with the Bak'u is wrong.  And then we have Star Fleet represented by yet another evil admiral (seriously does Star Fleet have more evil old white men in charge than the Trump administration right now?) acting all cloak and dagger (aka not remotely Star Fleet).

Basically all the motivations of all factions are totally wrong.  Throw in the cheap looking production (seriously looks like some one changed the camera lens for the bottom of a milk bottle).  The fact hardly any of the cast get anything to do (Worf gets a zit, Troi and Crusher talk about their tits...).  The action is dull, the story even if the motivations made sense would still be boring.  Nothing remotely interesting or memorable happens in the dirge - that's why it's the worst Star Trek for me anyway.

That's an interesting analysis. Hadn't thought about it like that before. However, the long faced guys weren't just wanting to use the planet, they were wanting to bottle it up and sell it. If they had wanted to turn one of the continents into the new Ryza then it wouldn't have been an issue. They were wanting to kick the Baku off of it and rip away the atmosphere or some shit. My problem with it was the same as the other TNG films. The movie characters weren't the same as the series characters. Picard's tendencies towards Ramboism. Data is permanently emotional. Troi is perfect starfleet officer, capable of filling every role on a starship. I understand why they did it, it's what modern cinema audiences want, but it's not what I want.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2494 on: May 29, 2020, 01:16:53 PM »
I'll agree about changing the characters too much for the movies. I didn't mind some of them, like emotional Data, but Picard did become too much of an action star. And like I said, the emphasis became WAY too heavy on Picard and Data. Riker was largely lost, Troi was lost, Worf was a joke, Crusher was....was she there? I forget, and Geordi was cool actually.

Luckily, for me at least, I was so invested in the characters by that point that I was able to follow them for the most part.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2495 on: May 29, 2020, 01:52:07 PM »
I'll agree about changing the characters too much for the movies. I didn't mind some of them, like emotional Data, but Picard did become too much of an action star. And like I said, the emphasis became WAY too heavy on Picard and Data. Riker was largely lost, Troi was lost, Worf was a joke, Crusher was....was she there? I forget, and Geordi was cool actually.

Luckily, for me at least, I was so invested in the characters by that point that I was able to follow them for the most part.

Problem with Data being emotional was it wasnt a natural evolution during the course of the show, sure he was always curious and tried to become more human - but he never really grew that much.  His change just came instantly from a software upgrade, very cheap.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2496 on: May 29, 2020, 03:52:43 PM »
I'll agree about changing the characters too much for the movies. I didn't mind some of them, like emotional Data, but Picard did become too much of an action star. And like I said, the emphasis became WAY too heavy on Picard and Data. Riker was largely lost, Troi was lost, Worf was a joke, Crusher was....was she there? I forget, and Geordi was cool actually.

Luckily, for me at least, I was so invested in the characters by that point that I was able to follow them for the most part.

Problem with Data being emotional was it wasnt a natural evolution during the course of the show, sure he was always curious and tried to become more human - but he never really grew that much.  His change just came instantly from a software upgrade, very cheap.
Definitely. And they were kind of onto something with it being permanently fused into his noggin, something he was stuck with and didn't know how to cope with, but that was an idea for the series and not the remaining few movies. Kind of like Ezri Dax. A wonderful character arc for them to explore, but implemented when there was no time to actually do anything with it. In Data's case it was really just a gimmick.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2497 on: June 03, 2020, 03:20:45 PM »
RANKINGS EH ?!

I recently did a watch through of one Star Trek film a night for 13 days obvs ( including All Good Things and Galaxy Quest )  :biggrin:

Here's how I rate them now...

( easier to do in groups )

TOS MOVIES

1. The Wrath of Khan
2. The Voyage Home
3. The Undiscovered Country
4. The Motion Picture
5. The Search For Spock
6. The Final Frontier

TNG MOVIES

1. Generations ( I love it. The cinematography, the lighting, the colour palette, the score, the other-wordly-fantasy feeling it has throughout. )
2. First Contact
3. Nemesis
4. Insurrection

KELVIN

1. Beyond
2. Star Trek
3. Into Darkness - but I do love it...


All Good Things should have been the final movie and Insurrection should have been a two part episode.

- How did Picard learn to freeze time so quickly ?
- Did he use it to get the holoship into orbit, copy the inside of the enemy ship exactly, beam the bad guys onto it in the same position they were on their own ship? It's not explained in the film at all
how they do it all so quickly.
- Why is it never mentioned again that Picard can freeze time ? Does it only work on that planet ?


-----------

I loved Disco S1 - but they needed to tone down the darkness in S2 - which they largely did. Much more enjoyable. Picard S1 started and ended strong i thought but the middle sagged.

And the whole fancy dress caper episode was tonally all over the place. Started with graphic torture. The middle was a camp farce and it ended with murder. Like most Trek shows I fully expect Picard S2

to be a huge improvement. Not least since nobody liked the gratuitous torture scene on Icheb. So much so that writer Michael Chabon had to post an explanation for it on Instagram.

----------

 :corn

TL;DR - Star Trek.

Online Polarbear

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2498 on: June 04, 2020, 01:35:27 AM »
1. The Wrath of Khan
2. Undiscovered Country
3. The Voyage Home
4. First Contact
5. Beyond
6. ST09
7. TMP
8. The Search For Spock
9. Generations
10. Into Darkness



11. The Final Frontier
12. Nemesis
13. Insurrection

Offline masterthes

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2499 on: June 06, 2020, 11:37:06 AM »
Switch 7 and 8, and you have my list

Anyway, back to my viewing of TOS, I just finished watching a Private Little War, and I know these episodes are supposed to be viewed as stand alones, but I find it very alarming Kirk's attitude goes from in the previous episode A Piece of the Action to strive for diplomacy, to A Private Little War where he's like, screw it, let them fight it out. Finding a peaceful settlement between the villagers and the hill people never enters his mind

Offline ErHaO

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2500 on: June 06, 2020, 05:56:40 PM »
Still enjoying TNG, early season 5 now. I think Picard, Worf and Data are the best characters. The rest of the main cast is good, but I don't like Troi that much to be honest and I am a bit neutral on Geordi.

Also ordered a dvd collection with all the pre-Abrams films, the stardate collection. First dvd set I bought in ages, cost me 20 euro's (blu ray was 65 euros, streaming legally 3 per film with a time limit, so opted DVD).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 06:05:06 PM by ErHaO »

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2501 on: June 20, 2020, 12:34:35 AM »
Still enjoying TNG, early season 5 now. I think Picard, Worf and Data are the best characters. The rest of the main cast is good, but I don't like Troi that much to be honest and I am a bit neutral on Geordi.

Also ordered a dvd collection with all the pre-Abrams films, the stardate collection. First dvd set I bought in ages, cost me 20 euro's (blu ray was 65 euros, streaming legally 3 per film with a time limit, so opted DVD).

Troi is generally a poorly written character.  Geordie is a weirdly written character, his best friends are a boy and a robot and he's super creepy round women.

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2502 on: June 20, 2020, 06:30:44 AM »
Soupy I don't know if you're still listening to the greatest gen podcast but they touch on both of those topics a lot over the TNG season.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2503 on: June 20, 2020, 09:51:52 AM »
I always figured Geordie was the epitome of the nerd stereotype.  He's the Chief Engineer on the flagship; he is Nerd Extraordinaire.  So being more comfortable with the boy genius and the ultimate AI dude, and totally clueless with women, fits right into that.

The character of Troi seemed to come about when they had planning meetings on what the bridge crew of the next generation starship would look like (as in its composition).  In the Star Trek universe, the only model they had at the time was TOS.  Spock was first officer, but also the Science Officer and had a regular station on the bridge.  McCoy obviously was Chief Medical Officer and they literally had to come up with excuses for him to visit the bridge.  But the trio of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were the core of the main cast, and Kirk constantly looked to Spock and McCoy for advice and insight.

On the TNG bridge, there's the three chairs, so the captain has constant access to his first officer for advice, and on the other side... whoever it is that would be basically next-gen McCoy.  The Counselor position was created.  Someone with empathic abilities, someone experienced and expert in dealing with novel situations and reading them immediately, and advising the captain accordingly.  Indispensible during first-contact situations, resolving conflicts, etc.  Unfortunately, the writers rarely came up with more than "He's hiding something" or "I sense fear, Captain" or "I advise caution" and the character/position became a joke.  But she was pretty and had nice boobs, so it was okay.

That was my take, anyway.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2504 on: June 22, 2020, 11:16:49 AM »
I always figured Geordie was the epitome of the nerd stereotype.  He's the Chief Engineer on the flagship; he is Nerd Extraordinaire.  So being more comfortable with the boy genius and the ultimate AI dude, and totally clueless with women, fits right into that.

The character of Troi seemed to come about when they had planning meetings on what the bridge crew of the next generation starship would look like (as in its composition).  In the Star Trek universe, the only model they had at the time was TOS.  Spock was first officer, but also the Science Officer and had a regular station on the bridge.  McCoy obviously was Chief Medical Officer and they literally had to come up with excuses for him to visit the bridge.  But the trio of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were the core of the main cast, and Kirk constantly looked to Spock and McCoy for advice and insight.

On the TNG bridge, there's the three chairs, so the captain has constant access to his first officer for advice, and on the other side... whoever it is that would be basically next-gen McCoy.  The Counselor position was created.  Someone with empathic abilities, someone experienced and expert in dealing with novel situations and reading them immediately, and advising the captain accordingly.  Indispensible during first-contact situations, resolving conflicts, etc.  Unfortunately, the writers rarely came up with more than "He's hiding something" or "I sense fear, Captain" or "I advise caution" and the character/position became a joke.  But she was pretty and had nice boobs, so it was okay.

That was my take, anyway.

And a sexy accent.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2505 on: June 29, 2020, 05:14:34 AM »
Not a slight on Marina of course as an actress - she was great in Picard... But Troi was the most pointless and useless character in TNG.

If anyone on board Enterprise wanted proper counselling - they always went to Guinan. Who gave actual good advice and never passed out or had a hissy fit at the slightest thing.


-

When I think of Troi episodes I always think of "Where ARE youuuu?" or the music box episode where she's pretty much just whinging the entire time.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2506 on: June 29, 2020, 11:58:01 AM »
I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that S2 of ENT is better than the far more popular S3. S3 has Similitude, which is probably the best thing they ever did, but by and large the good/bad episodes average out about the same. And maybe not even. It certainly had more excitement, which I suppose people appreciate, but it was mostly towards the end, and people often overlook the fact that less than half of the episodes are actually related to the Xindi. Mixed into all of that you've got utter shit like Northstar, Exile, Hatchery, and Extinction. S2 didn't have the highs (Similitude, X2), but it didn't have as many dogs, and was generally more consistent.

The bigger point, though, is that the characters were better in S2. First and foremost, Bakula doesn't do dark and brooding very well, and he damn sure tried to be in every episode. He was better than he got credit for at being an explorer and generally upright ship's captain. He flat out sucked as a vengeful and desperate captain. Plus the whole T'pol and Tucker thing. I'm pretty sure TOS never tried to have Spock fuck McCoy, and it's probably because they new it would be stupid (and creepy). Plus the thing with T'Pol turning into a junky. They radically changed the nature of these characters and in most cases it was a downgrade.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2507 on: June 29, 2020, 12:02:29 PM »
I'll agree on some of it. I liked Season 2 a lot, I just didn't dislike Season 3 as much as you did, despite some of the episodes being pretty meh. I also don't think it was the action that did it for me since I've been pretty outspoken about that not being what I like about ST.

I will also agree that Bakula was a great captain that CAN NOT do dark and brooding at all. Dude just seems too naturally nice.

I think the T'Pol and Tucker thing was good actually. I don't have to hold them to identical recreations of Spock/McCoy and let that ruin it, I thought they built their romance pretty well over a long period of time. I also didn't have a problem with her addiction as a concept, though it could've been written better.


And Kotow, the idea of Guinan as the actual counselor on the ship.....was not something that had occurred to me. Not only is it actually true, but it really represented how a lot of people saw therapy. Don't go to a therapist, go to a bar. Sad, but you got a good point.


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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2508 on: June 29, 2020, 12:16:45 PM »
It's like they realized how badly they screwed up the actual Counselor position (my little exploration upthread was entirely conjecture) and decided to create a character who could actually counsel the captain, and everybody else for that matter.  Guinan was one of my favorite characters.

"I'm Guinan.  I tend bar.  And I listen."

Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2509 on: June 29, 2020, 12:21:55 PM »
I'll agree on some of it. I liked Season 2 a lot, I just didn't dislike Season 3 as much as you did, despite some of the episodes being pretty meh. I also don't think it was the action that did it for me since I've been pretty outspoken about that not being what I like about ST.

I will also agree that Bakula was a great captain that CAN NOT do dark and brooding at all. Dude just seems too naturally nice.

I think the T'Pol and Tucker thing was good actually. I don't have to hold them to identical recreations of Spock/McCoy and let that ruin it, I thought they built their romance pretty well over a long period of time. I also didn't have a problem with her addiction as a concept, though it could've been written better.


And Kotow, the idea of Guinan as the actual counselor on the ship.....was not something that had occurred to me. Not only is it actually true, but it really represented how a lot of people saw therapy. Don't go to a therapist, go to a bar. Sad, but you got a good point.
It's not that I dislike S3 at all. As I pointed out, there's a lot of good stuff in there. And insofar as bad guys go, the Xindi are a great idea and generally well done. I'm mostly just pushing back on the common perception that S3 was the highlight of the series. I think S2 was better.

As for Tucker/T'Pol, it's not that I'm holding them to be recreations of Spock and McCoy. They clearly had a similar dynamic, though, and it was better when they were mostly adversarial. Honestly, even had they not gotten together, I think they'd changed Tucker's character too much, anyway. He's better at brooding than Bakula, but it was still an unnecessarily dark turn, I think. Maybe it would have worked out on its own, but combined with T'Pol he was just too different, I think.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2510 on: June 29, 2020, 12:23:51 PM »
When Picard needed counseling he went straight to Troi. When he didn't want counseling Guinan was the one that would call him out on it. She took on that role with Riker, too.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2511 on: July 01, 2020, 04:29:53 AM »
Troi was more upfront about her advice like : This is what you need to do.

Guinan made you realise the correct course of action for yourself.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2512 on: July 01, 2020, 10:34:24 AM »
I'll agree on some of it. I liked Season 2 a lot, I just didn't dislike Season 3 as much as you did, despite some of the episodes being pretty meh. I also don't think it was the action that did it for me since I've been pretty outspoken about that not being what I like about ST.

I will also agree that Bakula was a great captain that CAN NOT do dark and brooding at all. Dude just seems too naturally nice.

I think the T'Pol and Tucker thing was good actually. I don't have to hold them to identical recreations of Spock/McCoy and let that ruin it, I thought they built their romance pretty well over a long period of time. I also didn't have a problem with her addiction as a concept, though it could've been written better.


And Kotow, the idea of Guinan as the actual counselor on the ship.....was not something that had occurred to me. Not only is it actually true, but it really represented how a lot of people saw therapy. Don't go to a therapist, go to a bar. Sad, but you got a good point.
It's not that I dislike S3 at all. As I pointed out, there's a lot of good stuff in there. And insofar as bad guys go, the Xindi are a great idea and generally well done. I'm mostly just pushing back on the common perception that S3 was the highlight of the series. I think S2 was better.

As for Tucker/T'Pol, it's not that I'm holding them to be recreations of Spock and McCoy. They clearly had a similar dynamic, though, and it was better when they were mostly adversarial. Honestly, even had they not gotten together, I think they'd changed Tucker's character too much, anyway. He's better at brooding than Bakula, but it was still an unnecessarily dark turn, I think. Maybe it would have worked out on its own, but combined with T'Pol he was just too different, I think.

I guess I should've said I don't dislike what you dislike about it as much, and I like more about it. My bad.

I didn't have a problem with what they did with T'Pol or Trip at all. Again, totally agree about Bakula, but I actually really liked the other characters, even if they didn't do a whole lot most of the time.

I think, with T'Pol at least, it was interesting how they set up the Vulcans to be rather different than they were by the time of TOS and how T'Pol was an indication of some of that evolution, as well as a sign of their primitive past as well. Spock was a much more evolved Vulcan, and I see T'Pol and those folk as a middle ground between how they used to be and how they eventually become.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2513 on: July 01, 2020, 11:49:22 AM »
I'll agree on some of it. I liked Season 2 a lot, I just didn't dislike Season 3 as much as you did, despite some of the episodes being pretty meh. I also don't think it was the action that did it for me since I've been pretty outspoken about that not being what I like about ST.

I will also agree that Bakula was a great captain that CAN NOT do dark and brooding at all. Dude just seems too naturally nice.

I think the T'Pol and Tucker thing was good actually. I don't have to hold them to identical recreations of Spock/McCoy and let that ruin it, I thought they built their romance pretty well over a long period of time. I also didn't have a problem with her addiction as a concept, though it could've been written better.


And Kotow, the idea of Guinan as the actual counselor on the ship.....was not something that had occurred to me. Not only is it actually true, but it really represented how a lot of people saw therapy. Don't go to a therapist, go to a bar. Sad, but you got a good point.
It's not that I dislike S3 at all. As I pointed out, there's a lot of good stuff in there. And insofar as bad guys go, the Xindi are a great idea and generally well done. I'm mostly just pushing back on the common perception that S3 was the highlight of the series. I think S2 was better.

As for Tucker/T'Pol, it's not that I'm holding them to be recreations of Spock and McCoy. They clearly had a similar dynamic, though, and it was better when they were mostly adversarial. Honestly, even had they not gotten together, I think they'd changed Tucker's character too much, anyway. He's better at brooding than Bakula, but it was still an unnecessarily dark turn, I think. Maybe it would have worked out on its own, but combined with T'Pol he was just too different, I think.

I guess I should've said I don't dislike what you dislike about it as much, and I like more about it. My bad.

I didn't have a problem with what they did with T'Pol or Trip at all. Again, totally agree about Bakula, but I actually really liked the other characters, even if they didn't do a whole lot most of the time.

I think, with T'Pol at least, it was interesting how they set up the Vulcans to be rather different than they were by the time of TOS and how T'Pol was an indication of some of that evolution, as well as a sign of their primitive past as well. Spock was a much more evolved Vulcan, and I see T'Pol and those folk as a middle ground between how they used to be and how they eventually become.
Agree completely. I like that there was a mistrust and resentment that was gradually assuaged. That applied to Soval, as well. Not too long ago I watched Cease Fire, and Soval's parting words were "Your presence here has not been... overly meddlesome." Enough for Shran to comment "I think he likes you!" The development of the Vulcan/Human relationship was one of the better things about the show.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2514 on: July 01, 2020, 11:50:48 AM »
Oh yea, I actually really came to love Soval.

A Soval and Shram spin off would've been entertaining to say the least  :lol
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2515 on: July 02, 2020, 02:55:55 AM »
Not a slight on Marina of course as an actress - she was great in Picard... But Troi was the most pointless and useless character in TNG.

If anyone on board Enterprise wanted proper counselling - they always went to Guinan. Who gave actual good advice and never passed out or had a hissy fit at the slightest thing.


-

When I think of Troi episodes I always think of "Where ARE youuuu?" or the music box episode where she's pretty much just whinging the entire time.

My favourite crap Troi episode is undoubtedly the one where she's become 'Commander'.   It's just a B-Story to a rather dull Data crash lands on a planet and loses his memory A-Story............but it so stupid.

- Troi decides she want to become a Commander.
- She decides to take the exam.
- Riker will be the sole person judging her.
- The exam is done in the holosuit.
- Troi fails twice, gets whiny at Riker for being to hard on her.
- Troi passes the exam 3rd time and becomes Commander Troi.

Issues? 

- The Commanders exam is just one holosuit program - you don't have to study/learn for it, you don't have to put in the hours in the captains chair, you don't have to go to the academy.
- To pass you merely have to be willing to send one of your crew to their death - in a holosuit where there is no jeopardy at all.  No wonder high ranking Star Fleet crew are such dicks, they'd happily send the crew to their death.
- You can take the Commander's exam (which allows you to commander a starship) numberous times, Troi takes it three times in the span of the episode which based on the A-Story is a week at most.
- Troi turns into whiny Troi when she fails (twice) and gets pissy with Riker - this alone should prove she's no commander.
- Troi is the ships Counselor, yet can just take the Commanders exam.   This episode follow 'Lower Decks' and the way promotions are done is totally different in that episode.
 

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2516 on: July 02, 2020, 06:19:59 AM »
Yeah, I always thought Troi getting her strips (or buttons in this case), was lame.  I mean, the fucking professor basically gave her the answer.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2517 on: July 02, 2020, 10:03:04 AM »
At least Picard didn't beam every single officer down to a planet and leave her in charge with a bunch of nobody's while the Borg were out wilding in the very next episode.
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2518 on: July 22, 2020, 03:04:14 AM »
What are the general thoughts on the upcoming 'Lower Decks'? (the trailer is out).  I like Sci-Fi comedy cartoons such as Rick & Morty and Futurama....but I'm just not sure I want Star Trek like that - is it even supposed canon?   I'll give it ago if I can watch it in the UK, but I'm not overly looking forward to it if I'm being honest.

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds on the other hand I cannot wait for.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2519 on: July 22, 2020, 05:49:31 AM »
I'm looking forward to checking it out. I'm curious to see what kind of tone it's going to have.