Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[DoctorAction]

Man, what? It makes perfect sense to update it a little. A ship from 1966 wouldn't fit in a 2017 sci-fi without some tweaks, obviously. 

I hesitated to address some of your other points because I just felt the opposite of them and don't want to appear abrasive. It's all entertainment, right? But for example:

• Sarek is Sarek. Not a beat felt wrong for me. He's great.
  
• Loved Sonequa from TWD and in this. She's great too.
• The characters are some of the best in a Trek show, imo. Diverse, interesting and really well acted (although they've ignored a lot of bridge members entirely) - Saru, Hugh, Tilly, Stammets, Lorca, Ash, T'Rell. Even hammy bad Georgiou. The admiral is weak, imo, but most of the characters are unusually good, I think.

I'm not sure about bad writers. This might be the same thing: I think the plotting and pacing of the show is really random, manic and wacky. That's not unusual for Trek afaic, but with Discovery they seem to be trying to do so much all the time that I find myself wanting them to slow down and breathe a little. (There are some real pace head-scratchers next season. Get ready!  ) But it is a really big ask to create a new beloved franchise show that hasn't been on air a long time, is referencing core history, trying to do something different, and in an era of television that is very different to past ones.

I think we know by now that our perceptions of Trek are very different. For me, Star Trek is an INCREDIBLE idea, implemented with hugely differing amounts of success. It's odd to think I'm saying this about my all-time favourite franchise (I grew up with it and have awaited and watched literally every series premiere and movie release on day one since The Undiscovered Country) but SO MUCH of it blows, across all of the shows. And so much if it is so widely different from what came before. It changes and evolves with every episode/movie, so I have absolutely no problem with it referencing or redrawing hallowed canon or characters, or missing the mark regularly. That's Trek. I'm just happy they're making it (even Picard..). The more they make, the greater chance of them creating a thing that resonates with me, you know?

But it sounds like you got something out of the season, so I hope you'll find some things to enjoy in season 2. 

[Adami]

Like I said, it's better than Picard, but that's not a terribly high bar.

At this point I'd put Discovery on par with the lower tier of Voyager episodes. At best, it's fun and unoffensive, and at worse it's just awful.

As for the side characters, I like Saru despite them seeming to try hard to make him unlikeable. But I'm also primed to like Doug Jones, and while I like Anthony Rapp's character, I honestly can't tell you much about him. He's gay. He's a dick...sometimes? Selfless other times? While most of the characters have likable qualities, much like Picard, they just seem to be whatever the plot needs them to be and there isn't a core to much of them for the most part.

And Sarek is SO over the top emotional in much of this and illogical that he bares no resemblance to the Sarek I remember, who was the ideal Vulcan prior.

[El Barto]

I think Discovery did a good job with redesigning the original Enterprise. It is faithful to the original 60's model while being updated tastefully. I especially like the interior, and that is going to get shown more in season 2.

I think this redesign is far better than the variant in JJ's movies.

I just checked out the STD Enterprise bridge on YT, and I agree. Very nicely done. Quite faithful to the original and still halfway modern looking.

[Adami]

I think Discovery did a good job with redesigning the original Enterprise. It is faithful to the original 60's model while being updated tastefully. I especially like the interior, and that is going to get shown more in season 2.

I think this redesign is far better than the variant in JJ's movies.

I just checked out the STD Enterprise bridge on YT, and I agree. Very nicely done. Quite faithful to the original and still halfway modern looking.

The bridge? Hm. I'll see that tonight I assume when I start season 2.

[DoctorAction]

Remember that this is Sarek ten years previous and he's got a bunch of stuff going on, that you'll get to in season 2.

[Adami]

Remember that this is Sarek ten years previous and he's got a bunch of stuff going on, that you'll get to in season 2.

I think it just hits closer to home for me cause I really really loved Mark Lenard as Sarek and consider him essentially the perfect Vulcan. So I'm likely to dislike many other people's takes on him. But he's also just written....yea I dunno. Telling Michael that it's perfectly logical to hate all Klingons because of what happened to her or that it's only logical to commit genocide. I feel like Vulcan logic used to be more ideal and the way it's been portrayed for the last however many years is closer to just how humans feel in general. So I'll likely not be happy with it but I can tolerate it. The actor isn't bad at all. I just don't like how they wrote him. Especially when he was in his coma and they decided the only way for him to interact was through matrix fighting with Michael? It's just the writing is so not Vulcan. Even if it's 10 years earlier.

There's a good number of things in Discovery (season 1 at least) and Picard that if someone says they really love, then I'll say they aren't really getting Star Trek, but if someone likes the Sarek from Discovery, that's cool. I'm too biased to make a judgment call.

[El Barto]

Remember that this is Sarek ten years previous and he's got a bunch of stuff going on, that you'll get to in season 2.

I think it just hits closer to home for me cause I really really loved Mark Lenard as Sarek and consider him essentially the perfect Vulcan. So I'm likely to dislike many other people's takes on him. But he's also just written....yea I dunno. Telling Michael that it's perfectly logical to hate all Klingons because of what happened to her or that it's only logical to commit genocide. I feel like Vulcan logic used to be more ideal and the way it's been portrayed for the last however many years is closer to just how humans feel in general. So I'll likely not be happy with it but I can tolerate it. The actor isn't bad at all. I just don't like how they wrote him. Especially when he was in his coma and they decided the only way for him to interact was through matrix fighting with Michael? It's just the writing is so not Vulcan. Even if it's 10 years earlier.

I have no idea what the context here is, but it seems to me that Vulcans, and Sarek in particular, have always been pragmatic bastards perfectly capable of violence. What was it Spock said, "my father is perfectly capable of killing, both efficiently and logically?" One of my favorite scenes from ENT was when a Vulcan ship came to the rescue just in a nick of time, and the captain says, in the most understated voice imaginable, "tell them to surrender their weapons or we'll destroy their ship." There's no question that they'd do it without reservation as, after all, Vulcans never bluff. If they were the police they'd announce "come out with your hands up or we'll blow up your house in 5-4-3. . ." Like I said, I don't know what the logic was, but I can see Sarek using logic to justify preemptive killing or even genocide.

[Adami]

Remember that this is Sarek ten years previous and he's got a bunch of stuff going on, that you'll get to in season 2.

I think it just hits closer to home for me cause I really really loved Mark Lenard as Sarek and consider him essentially the perfect Vulcan. So I'm likely to dislike many other people's takes on him. But he's also just written....yea I dunno. Telling Michael that it's perfectly logical to hate all Klingons because of what happened to her or that it's only logical to commit genocide. I feel like Vulcan logic used to be more ideal and the way it's been portrayed for the last however many years is closer to just how humans feel in general. So I'll likely not be happy with it but I can tolerate it. The actor isn't bad at all. I just don't like how they wrote him. Especially when he was in his coma and they decided the only way for him to interact was through matrix fighting with Michael? It's just the writing is so not Vulcan. Even if it's 10 years earlier.

I have no idea what the context here is, but it seems to me that Vulcans, and Sarek in particular, have always been pragmatic bastards perfectly capable of violence. What was it Spock said, "my father is perfectly capable of killing, both efficiently and logically?" One of my favorite scenes from ENT was when a Vulcan ship came to the rescue just in a nick of time, and the captain says, in the most understated voice imaginable, "tell them to surrender their weapons or we'll destroy their ship." There's no question that they'd do it without reservation as, after all, Vulcans never bluff. If they were the police they'd announce "come out with your hands up or we'll blow up your house in 5-4-3. . ." Like I said, I don't know what the logic was, but I can see Sarek using logic to justify preemptive killing or even genocide.

I think there's a line. I didn't buy Sarek not only advocating for genocide but also letting the emporer from the mirror universe take command of the Discovery and then lie about the whole thing to the crew. It was just way too much.

Also his logic seemed so human most of the time. It's only logical to want to kill all the Klingons, after all, they killed your parents. No. That's not Vulcan logic, that's human logic.

Sarek especially seemed not driven 100% by cold logic but also by a wisdom. Sure you could calculate when genocide is the most favorable outcome, but I feel like a greater wisdom would overrule that.

[El Barto]

Remember that this is Sarek ten years previous and he's got a bunch of stuff going on, that you'll get to in season 2.

I think it just hits closer to home for me cause I really really loved Mark Lenard as Sarek and consider him essentially the perfect Vulcan. So I'm likely to dislike many other people's takes on him. But he's also just written....yea I dunno. Telling Michael that it's perfectly logical to hate all Klingons because of what happened to her or that it's only logical to commit genocide. I feel like Vulcan logic used to be more ideal and the way it's been portrayed for the last however many years is closer to just how humans feel in general. So I'll likely not be happy with it but I can tolerate it. The actor isn't bad at all. I just don't like how they wrote him. Especially when he was in his coma and they decided the only way for him to interact was through matrix fighting with Michael? It's just the writing is so not Vulcan. Even if it's 10 years earlier.

I have no idea what the context here is, but it seems to me that Vulcans, and Sarek in particular, have always been pragmatic bastards perfectly capable of violence. What was it Spock said, "my father is perfectly capable of killing, both efficiently and logically?" One of my favorite scenes from ENT was when a Vulcan ship came to the rescue just in a nick of time, and the captain says, in the most understated voice imaginable, "tell them to surrender their weapons or we'll destroy their ship." There's no question that they'd do it without reservation as, after all, Vulcans never bluff. If they were the police they'd announce "come out with your hands up or we'll blow up your house in 5-4-3. . ." Like I said, I don't know what the logic was, but I can see Sarek using logic to justify preemptive killing or even genocide.

I think there's a line. I didn't buy Sarek not only advocating for genocide but also letting the emporer from the mirror universe take command of the Discovery and then lie about the whole thing to the crew. It was just way too much.

Also his logic seemed so human most of the time. It's only logical to want to kill all the Klingons, after all, they killed your parents. No. That's not Vulcan logic, that's human logic.

Yeah, I'll buy that. Though wasn't it a human he was speaking to? I'd agree with his logic there, but only as a prelude to why you shouldn't do it anyway.

Sarek especially seemed not driven 100% by cold logic but also by a wisdom. Sure you could calculate when genocide is the most favorable outcome, but I feel like a greater wisdom would overrule that.

I never really got that from Sarek. It was Spock that seemed to have the virtue of wisdom. Even towards the end Sarek always came across as a pragmatic hardass, motivated entirely by logic.

[Adami]

He was talking to a human raised largely on Vulcan by Sarek and Amanda. So basically a Vulcan.

And you might be right about Sarek. When I rewatch TOS and the movies, maybe I’ll reevaluate Sarek. I’m just going off memory which might be off.

[soupytwist]

He was talking to a human raised largely on Vulcan by Sarek and Amanda. So basically a Vulcan.

And you might be right about Sarek. When I rewatch TOS and the movies, maybe I’ll reevaluate Sarek. I’m just going off memory which might be off.

He's only in one episode of TOS and spends most of that in sickbay! 
You think he's one of those characters who turns up quite a few times, but he's only in 3 episodes (1 tos, 2 tng) and he pops up in briefly in 3(?) of the movies - obviously the search for slick he gets most screen time, but even that isn't as much as you'd think.  I'm wouldn't be surprised if the disco sarek has already had more screen time.

[Adami]

I don’t care about screen time. I only care if a Sarek found slick!

[soupytwist]

I don’t care about screen time. I only care if a Sarek found slick!

Lol @ slick.  Wtf!   Typing on my phone in a moving car (not the driver), must have auto corrected!

[Adami]

So watched the first episode of season 2 of discovery.

CONSIDERABLY better.

It's much lighter, way less doom and gloom and more I dunno..lively?

Anson (weird name) is lovely as Pike, and they stopped trying to make Saru unlikable and just let Doug Jones be awesome.

They basically just rewrote the engineering guy, but for the better.

The plot was still really dumb. The writing is better but only so much in tone and intent, actual writing skill is still pretty subpar.

Also Tig will be a welcome addition to the crew if she joins. She was great.

So I'm much more excited for this season. Though I still don't understand why they've essentially tried their hardest to totally shun the Star Trek aesthetic  and go as generic sci-fi as possible. It's all very pretty, don't get me wrong, but it just lacks that unique Star Trek flavor. Between this and Picard, the aesthetic (and only that) is much more akin to Firefly, Star Wars or Guardians of the Galaxy. Those are all great aesthetics, but I just want Star Trek to look like Star Trek. If you want to change it, update it, cool, but do so in the same spirit, which they aren't.

[soupytwist]

Season 2 is much better imo.  They still make too much of the story about Burnham though - and they should have ditched Ash Tyler/Voq as that character is a total mess and the actor playing him is poor (and kind off gormless). 

Anson is awesome as Pike though, if we never see him in star trek again he'll go down as one of the best character in the franchise - if they can get him to return then he could go down as one of the greatest.

It's funny the way you write about modern Trek is how I'm feeling about The Mandalorian - I waited a while to watch this as we didn't get Disney + in the UK till March (didn't want to pirate it) and with one episode left I'm so meh on it.  It's the most generic sci-fi show I think I've ever watched, nearly all the episodes have storylines that you can see have been lifted from elsewhere, the characters are all overused archetypes , yeah sure it looks great, have plenty of pow, pow action and baby Yoda is cute and all - but the writing is so safe, bland and predictable - I believe 3 episodes (out of 7) have used the standard trust betrayal blueprint!!

[DoctorAction]

Though I still don't understand why they've essentially tried their hardest to totally shun the Star Trek aesthetic  and go as generic sci-fi as possible. It's all very pretty, don't get me wrong, but it just lacks that unique Star Trek flavor. Between this and Picard, the aesthetic (and only that) is much more akin to Firefly, Star Wars or Guardians of the Galaxy. Those are all great aesthetics, but I just want Star Trek to look like Star Trek. If you want to change it, update it, cool, but do so in the same spirit, which they aren't.

This is incorrect and your phrasing really bemuses me. "tried their hardest to totally shun the Star Trek aesthetic" ? "I just want Star Trek to look like Star Trek" ? Well, it does:

Firefly/Guardians/Star Wars




Ent A / Ent D / Discovery




I think you'd rather that they had tried their hardest to totally shun the Star Trek aesthetic so you could really get up on your high horse and crow about it with real justification but, honestly, you just sound like you need to try and find negatives because, err, you liked some previous Trek and think you've found the one source of truth on what that Trek means? Come on. Give the makers some respect. No-one is destroying ancient temples here. They obviously want to make a Star Trek show that people like.

[Adami]

Anyway.

Plot twist!

Watched episode 2, of season 2 of Discovery and.........I liked it! Just a good episode. Felt very in the spirit of Trek, and I enjoy the overall mystery they're building so far with the angel whatever image. I really am liking Pike and the other characters are much better this season so far. Didn't notice any stupidity in the writing and thought it was a really interesting plot.

And no, I'm not having a stroke.

[Adami]

So, I gotta say. I think I'm through episode 5 of 6 of season 2 and I'm digging it!

It's not brilliant, but it's so much better and rather enjoyable. It really needs to slow the hell down, but for a modern take, it's not bad.

Looking forward to the second half of the season!

[soupytwist]

So, I gotta say. I think I'm through episode 5 of 6 of season 2 and I'm digging it!

It's not brilliant, but it's so much better and rather enjoyable. It really needs to slow the hell down, but for a modern take, it's not bad.

Looking forward to the second half of the season!

Good to hear!!
I'm willing to bet you'll have the Red Angel reveal though!

[Adami]

So, I gotta say. I think I'm through episode 5 of 6 of season 2 and I'm digging it!

It's not brilliant, but it's so much better and rather enjoyable. It really needs to slow the hell down, but for a modern take, it's not bad.

Looking forward to the second half of the season!

Good to hear!!
I'm willing to bet you'll have the Red Angel reveal though!

Hate? Probably haha.

I'm expecting to. It's very Battlestar, which I'd prefer Star Trek stop doing (even though BSG is one of my favs) but sadly it's the kind of mystery that rarely, if ever, has a good pay off. So I don't have high expectations for the reveal.

[Adami]

God damn I am loving Pike.

I obviously have no real opinions on him from ToS, given his limited role, and as much as I like Bruce Greenwood, I am liking this version of Pike the best.

[abydos]

I'm starting the last season of Voyager and I'm really not looking forward to finishing it as I've really grown to like it overall. It's a shame that most of the characters are.. just there, but they still add to the overall feel of the show. I was surprised to see The Rock in one of the episodes

[DoctorAction]

God damn I am loving Pike.

I obviously have no real opinions on him from ToS, given his limited role, and as much as I like Bruce Greenwood, I am liking this version of Pike the best.

He's so great, isn't he? I really hope they make the spin-off show with him they've talked about.

Did you catch the between-seasons Short Treks? At least 2 out of 4 of the first batch them had some link into season 2. We've not been able to see the post-season-2 batch in the UK yet, unfortunately.

I also read that Jonathan Frakes has directed a few episodes of season 3.

[El Barto]

I'm starting the last season of Voyager and I'm really not looking forward to finishing it as I've really grown to like it overall. It's a shame that most of the characters are.. just there, but they still add to the overall feel of the show. I was surprised to see The Rock in one of the episodes

I'm about halfway through S6, and I'm kind of in the same boat about not wanting to suffer through the end. Overall I think it's a very good show, but it really started to tank near the end, much like TNG. There's a weird problem that they have. Seven was an excellent character, and exactly what they needed. At the same time her arrival changed the dynamic so the style of the shows changed, as well. Beltran and Wang have both been pretty outspoken about how bad the final seasons were, and in retrospect they're exactly right. It's become more about the characters than the situations they find themselves in, which are invariably just plot contrivances. It almost feels more like a sitcom, or some awful family show than science fiction. There are still some good episodes, but a lot are just awful. When TNG or DS9 did set pieces it could work because the characters are well-defined and stay mostly within their roles, or required to act outside of them. I just watched Virtuoso and it's like they forgot who the Dr. and Janeway were. They certainly weren't the same two people from the previous hundred or so episodes.

[soupytwist]

There is an awful lot of dialogue sharing in Voyager.  Scenes where most of the cast are together and it just feels like the who speaks which lines have been drawn by straws, not related to the character.

The main problem with that show is the characters weren't strong enough to carry the mediocore writing, TNG and DS9 cast and characters can make a average episode still seem decent.  Voyagers crew turned it the other way an average episode would feel worse.  Kim, Chakoty and Torres are boring and Neelix and Kes were terrible characters -they are no fun to spend time with when the story isn't engaging. 

[DoctorAction]

Totally.

It was a bit surprising, as it began with the idea of conflicting marquis and Starfleet crew on the same ship but that went away quite early on and everyone became really quite comfy and reasonable all the time. Which is nice but not very dramatic.

[El Barto]

Totally.

It was a bit surprising, as it began with the idea of conflicting marquis and Starfleet crew on the same ship but that went away quite early on and everyone became really quite comfy and reasonable all the time. Which is nice but not very dramatic.

But even when they got all nice and cozy with each other they were producing good episodes. There seems to be a marked change at the end of 5/beginning of 6 where the writing just fell apart, and stories were being cranked out with no real understanding of the characters involved. They just stopped being grounded. I just wrapped up the conspiracy theory episode. Where Chakote and Janeway arm themselves and accuse each other of being enemy agents because of a 3 minute power point presentation by 7/9. Who are these people and what are they doing on a starship? It's like the writer had never heard of these people before.

[Adami]

Man, I need to rewatch Voyager haha.

I know when I looked up Bryan Fuller, he was involved with Voyager, was he part of those last seasons? Cause his parts in Discovery seem to indicate that he doesn't get Star Trek or characters (as a concept) at all.

[The Dark Master]

Hey guys, long time no see!

So thanks to the current pandemic, the wife and I have been re-watching TNG, DS9 and Voyager.  We're on the last season of Voyager right now and after having not watched some of these episodes in years, it's very interesting how the quality of Trek waxed and waned over the years.  Anyways, watching all this Star Trek recently has encouraged me to look into who exactly was executive producer/showrunner during which seasons, and to what effect that had on quality.  All this information is available on wikipedia or memory alpha but given the recent conversation about the later seasons of Voyager, I thought it would interesting to post it here in a nice succinct format for discussion.

Next Generation:

Season 1: Gene Roddenberry
Season 2: Roddenberry, Maurice Hurley
Seasons 3-4: Roddenberry, Rick Berman, Michael Piller
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Piller
Season 7: Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor

It's worth noting that Roddenberry's direct control was curtailed significantly after the first season due to his declining health and pressure from the studio. Also, while Piller was still given a credit as executive producer and showrunner on season 7, his input was relatively limited as he was mostly focusing on DS9 at the time, hence why Jeri Taylor became an executive producer and showrunner for season 7.

DS9:

Seasons 1-3: Berman, Piller
Seasons 4-7: Berman, Ira Steven Behr

From what I've read or heard in interviews, it seems that Berman overall had very little direct input into DS9 after the first season as he preferred to focus on TNG and Voyager.  Also it appears that while Behr was only a writer and episode producer for the first 3 seasons, his role in shaping the overarching story was immense (the creation of the Dominion and subsequent plotlines were largely his doing), and even before Piller left after season 3, Behr was already being groomed as his replacement as showrunner so that Piller could focus more on Voyager.  This is probably why I found DS9 to be the most consistent of all the shows in terms of quality, given that so much of it was the product of one guy's creative vision.

Voyager:

Seasons 1-2: Berman, Piller
Seasons 3-4: Berman, Piller, Taylor
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Brannon Braga
Season 7: Berman, Kennith Biller

It's a damn shame that Piller left Trek after season 4 of Voyager as it appeared that the show was just starting to find it's legs with the introduction of Seven of Nine.  While most of the episodes that were focused on her and the Borg were pretty consistently good for the remainder of the series, it seems that after Piller left all the other characters just kind of fell by the wayside, perhaps because Berman, Braga and Biller didn't really know what to do with them (other then the Doctor, who is the other highlight of the show).  The writing of Janeway fluctuates wildly from one episode to the next (was she by the book like Picard, or more of a risk-taker like Kirk?) while everyone else is just relegated to their niche and forgotten, only to be trotted out for the sake of plot necessity or variety of character focus.  Which is a damn shame, as the show is pretty well cast and Kate Mulgrew is an immensely talented actress.

Overall, I've come to the conclusion that much of what made Trek great during that era could be attributed to Piller or (in the case of DS9) Behr.  Braga had plenty of experience writing and producing individual episodes for Next Gen and Voyager prior to becoming an executive producer but I just don't think he had the vision for the big picture necessary in a showrunner, and neither did Biller, despite his extensive writing credits for Voyager prior to becoming showrunner for season 7.  As for Berman, while he can take credit for presiding over what could be considered the height of the franchise, by most accounts he was more of a studio exec type rather then a creative force, and relied heavily upon the talent of others.  Once the creative minds with big ideas like Piller and Behr left Trek, it's no surprise Berman and Braga had difficulties carrying on without them.

[El Barto]

Next Generation:

Season 1: Gene Roddenberry
Season 2: Roddenberry, Maurice Hurley
Seasons 3-4: Roddenberry, Rick Berman, Michael Piller
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Piller
Season 7: Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor

It's worth noting that Roddenberry's direct control was curtailed significantly after the first season due to his declining health and pressure from the studio. Also, while Piller was still given a credit as executive producer and showrunner on season 7, his input was relatively limited as he was mostly focusing on DS9 at the time, hence why Jeri Taylor became an executive producer and showrunner for season 7.

If you haven't seen it, you might check out Chaos on the Bridge, which is Shatner's documentary about the first few seasons. Rodenberry was largely gone during S2. Hurley really didn't like the show at all. If I'm not mistaken he was a Hill Street Blues writer, and thought ST was just stupid. And Roddenberry's lawyer, apparently the world's biggest asshole, was meddling in the writing the whole time. The first couple of seasons were a real mess. It wasn't until Roddenberry was completely gone and his lawyer had been banned from the studio that Piller and Berman got things on track.

DS9:

Seasons 1-3: Berman, Piller
Seasons 4-7: Berman, Ira Steven Behr

From what I've read or heard in interviews, it seems that Berman overall had very little direct input into DS9 after the first season as he preferred to focus on TNG and Voyager.  Also it appears that while Behr was only a writer and episode producer for the first 3 seasons, his role in shaping the overarching story was immense (the creation of the Dominion and subsequent plotlines were largely his doing), and even before Piller left after season 3, Behr was already being groomed as his replacement as showrunner so that Piller could focus more on Voyager.  This is probably why I found DS9 to be the most consistent of all the shows in terms of quality, given that so much of it was the product of one guy's creative vision.

Missing in that is Behr's writing partner Robert Wolf Hewitt, who deserves just as much credit for creating the dominion. Behr had come up with the concept of a Dominion that was spooky and controlling the Gamma quadrant. My understanding is that "Wofie" went home for the weekend and came back with an outline for the whole Founder/Vorta/Jem H'dar structure, thus creating the Dominion as we know it. If you look at his writing credits, RWH was their Babe Ruth for writing.

Voyager:

Seasons 1-2: Berman, Piller
Seasons 3-4: Berman, Piller, Taylor
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Brannon Braga
Season 7: Berman, Kennith Biller

It's a damn shame that Piller left Trek after season 4 of Voyager as it appeared that the show was just starting to find it's legs with the introduction of Seven of Nine.  While most of the episodes that were focused on her and the Borg were pretty consistently good for the remainder of the series, it seems that after Piller left all the other characters just kind of fell by the wayside, perhaps because Berman, Braga and Biller didn't really know what to do with them (other then the Doctor, who is the other highlight of the show).  The writing of Janeway fluctuates wildly from one episode to the next (was she by the book like Picard, or more of a risk-taker like Kirk?) while everyone else is just relegated to their niche and forgotten, only to be trotted out for the sake of plot necessity or variety of character focus.  Which is a damn shame, as the show is pretty well cast and Kate Mulgrew is an immensely talented actress.

Yeah, it's certainly worth noting that Braga was banging/married to Jeri Ryan for all of that. It's no surprise that the writing took a decidedly different turn towards the end when Seven showed up in the cast.

Hey guys, long time no see!

[The Dark Master]

Next Generation:

Season 1: Gene Roddenberry
Season 2: Roddenberry, Maurice Hurley
Seasons 3-4: Roddenberry, Rick Berman, Michael Piller
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Piller
Season 7: Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor

It's worth noting that Roddenberry's direct control was curtailed significantly after the first season due to his declining health and pressure from the studio. Also, while Piller was still given a credit as executive producer and showrunner on season 7, his input was relatively limited as he was mostly focusing on DS9 at the time, hence why Jeri Taylor became an executive producer and showrunner for season 7.

If you haven't seen it, you might check out Chaos on the Bridge, which is Shatner's documentary about the first few seasons. Rodenberry was largely gone during S2. Hurley really didn't like the show at all. If I'm not mistaken he was a Hill Street Blues writer, and thought ST was just stupid. And Roddenberry's lawyer, apparently the world's biggest asshole, was meddling in the writing the whole time. The first couple of seasons were a real mess. It wasn't until Roddenberry was completely gone and his lawyer had been banned from the studio that Piller and Berman got things on track.

I've hear of that but have yet to check it out, so I'll put it on my to do list.

DS9:

Seasons 1-3: Berman, Piller
Seasons 4-7: Berman, Ira Steven Behr

From what I've read or heard in interviews, it seems that Berman overall had very little direct input into DS9 after the first season as he preferred to focus on TNG and Voyager.  Also it appears that while Behr was only a writer and episode producer for the first 3 seasons, his role in shaping the overarching story was immense (the creation of the Dominion and subsequent plotlines were largely his doing), and even before Piller left after season 3, Behr was already being groomed as his replacement as showrunner so that Piller could focus more on Voyager.  This is probably why I found DS9 to be the most consistent of all the shows in terms of quality, given that so much of it was the product of one guy's creative vision.

Missing in that is Behr's writing partner Robert Wolf Hewitt, who deserves just as much credit for creating the dominion. Behr had come up with the concept of a Dominion that was spooky and controlling the Gamma quadrant. My understanding is that "Wofie" went home for the weekend and came back with an outline for the whole Founder/Vorta/Jem H'dar structure, thus creating the Dominion as we know it. If you look at his writing credits, RWH was their Babe Ruth for writing.

Yeah, I was mostly thinking about executive producers and showrunners, so calling DS9 "one man's vision" was a gross exaggeration on my part.  Certainly there were other writers such as Wolfie and Ronald Moore who were instrumental in the shaping of the Dominion story arc and making DS9 what it was.  That said, after watching the show and comparing it directly to Next Gen and Voyager, it just seems obvious how much more of a cohesive vision there was behind DS9 relative to the others.  Not just because it was serialized; serialization was a result, not a cause of such coherent writing.  From all that I've read, it seems that because Berman and the studio focused so much more on Next Gen and Voyager they more or less let the writers do what they wanted on DS9 with far less restraints, which was codified when Behr became showrunner, but certainly, he was not alone in his efforts in shaping the overarching story of DS9.

Voyager:

Seasons 1-2: Berman, Piller
Seasons 3-4: Berman, Piller, Taylor
Seasons 5-6: Berman, Brannon Braga
Season 7: Berman, Kennith Biller

It's a damn shame that Piller left Trek after season 4 of Voyager as it appeared that the show was just starting to find it's legs with the introduction of Seven of Nine.  While most of the episodes that were focused on her and the Borg were pretty consistently good for the remainder of the series, it seems that after Piller left all the other characters just kind of fell by the wayside, perhaps because Berman, Braga and Biller didn't really know what to do with them (other then the Doctor, who is the other highlight of the show).  The writing of Janeway fluctuates wildly from one episode to the next (was she by the book like Picard, or more of a risk-taker like Kirk?) while everyone else is just relegated to their niche and forgotten, only to be trotted out for the sake of plot necessity or variety of character focus.  Which is a damn shame, as the show is pretty well cast and Kate Mulgrew is an immensely talented actress.

Yeah, it's certainly worth noting that Braga was banging/married to Jeri Ryan for all of that. It's no surprise that the writing took a decidedly different turn towards the end when Seven showed up in the cast.

Yeah... there was that too.  Jeri Ryan is a great actress and easy on the eyes, and Seven's character arc basically wrote itself, so I won't complain about the amount of screentime she got.  It's just disappointing that all the other characters, with the exceptions of Janeway and the Doctor were relegated to very limited character niches, but then again, I wonder how much of it was just Trek running out of ideas. For example, Chakotay's whole "ex-terrorist first officer" shtick had already been done with Kira, and with much more depth, so how much more could they explore that concept over the course of yet another 7 season show?

I should point out that I do enjoy Voyager quite a bit, even the later seasons.  Episodes like "Year of Hell" and "Equinox" are among the best in the franchise.  But by the time they got to season 7 it just seemed like Trek was a bit burnt out and in need of some new blood.  Instead we got three more seasons of Berman/Braga on Enterprise.  By the time Manny Coto showed up for season 4, it was too little too late.

Hey guys, long time no see!

[soupytwist]

Any season 2 update Adami?

[Adami]

Any season 2 update Adami?

Final episode later tonight. I'll post my thoughts after that.

[masterthes]

Old school Star Trek query for you. In The Enemy Within, their transporter is broken and they can't beam up the away party. Why couldn't they take one of the little vessels and take that instead? Are we supposed to believe they weren't around until the movies started happening?

[ZirconBlue]

Old school Star Trek query for you. In The Enemy Within, their transporter is broken and they can't beam up the away party. Why couldn't they take one of the little vessels and take that instead? Are we supposed to believe they weren't around until the movies started happening?

A shuttle had been suggested initially during the production of "The Enemy Within", but was ultimately rejected due to the cost.[1] It was raised again in Oliver Crawford's pitch for "The Galileo Seven". Series creator Gene Roddenberry attempted to persuade executives at Desilu Productions that the prop was needed for both this episode and his plan for "The Menagerie", but they rejected this again because of the budget. This delayed production on "The Galileo Seven" for more than two months.