Author Topic: Star Trek: Thread Space 9  (Read 270711 times)

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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2380 on: April 13, 2020, 12:20:45 PM »
Don't worry I completely accept Disco season one is a mess.  Those first 2 (maybe 3?) Episodes were written by Brian Fuller - who it appeared had a really odd plan with what he wanted to do with the show.  Then he left - most of season 1 is course correction.  Although it still does some weird stuff, and this show will always by hampered by Burnham who is dull and those boring klingons.

I looked it up, looks like Bryan was one of like 4 writers. Why are you placing the blame on him when the other writers have set that direction for Disco and Picard?

Because he was the showrunner originally, then he 'left' mid production. 

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2381 on: April 13, 2020, 12:25:14 PM »
Ah. I gotcha.


So I didn't do research, but did anyone ever explain why the Klingons are essentially a different species?
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2382 on: April 13, 2020, 12:53:22 PM »
I haven't heard about why the Klingons were changed.  Poor decision, I hate them. 

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2383 on: April 13, 2020, 01:04:38 PM »
And, I know a lot has been said for how super advanced the tech is compared to TOS. And for a lot of it, I'm fine because if TOS had this budget, they'd have done it too.

But the holographic communications are too much for me. They didn't have that level of tech throughout almost any of the ST shows, even decades later, so that one bothered me the most. Especially considering they pointed out that that first ship was really old and outdated anyway. I'm sure there'll be more.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2384 on: April 13, 2020, 01:05:39 PM »
Ah. I gotcha.


So I didn't do research, but did anyone ever explain why the Klingons are essentially a different species?

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2385 on: April 13, 2020, 01:16:40 PM »
Ah. I gotcha.


So I didn't do research, but did anyone ever explain why the Klingons are essentially a different species?



Such a great way to handle that. While I liked the Enterprise episodes that dealt with it, they really weren't necessary at all.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2386 on: April 14, 2020, 04:02:06 AM »
I think I read that they just wanted to make Klingons more scary and alien, generally. (They do get more hair in Season 2.) I generally approved of what they did with the Klingons in Discovery, tho. They've often come across as very one-dimensional in the past but they are quite varied and intimidating in ST:D. The scenes are often too long and a bit dull but it was good to see them as a brutal-looking threat with some unstable zeal.

(That DS9 Trouble With Tribbles episode is a contender for best Trek episode ever, in my book)
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Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2387 on: April 14, 2020, 12:54:07 PM »
My son is binge-rewatching Enterprise, and I'm enjoying it.  One thing I had forgotten:  however bad the theme song may be (I actually like it as a song, but not as a theme song for this show), they made it even worse in Season 3 by adding acoustic guitar and drums at the beginning, and, I think, speeding up the tempo.

Online DragonAttack

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2388 on: April 14, 2020, 06:29:37 PM »
How many have watched 'The Naked Time' from TOS in the past five weeks? 

...going along with Dragon Attack's Queen thread has been like taking a free class in Queen knowledge. Where else are you gonna find info like that?!

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2389 on: April 18, 2020, 09:50:53 AM »
4 episodes or so into Discovery.

Do these writers just hate Star Trek? Good lord. Everyone is such a dick. Everything is dark and ultra gritty. The spore drive is just plain dumb.

I feel like this show was pitched as "Listen...everyone hates Star Trek, we know that. But the IP has made some money recently, so let's use the name and just completely reinvent every single thing about it. People want dark and gritty. People want unlikable characters. People want bleak and hopeless. People want cruelty and conspiracies. So let's just do that and try to capitalize on the ST name as much as we can."
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Online Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2390 on: April 18, 2020, 09:55:00 AM »
I think I read that they just wanted to make Klingons more scary and alien, generally. (They do get more hair in Season 2.) I generally approved of what they did with the Klingons in Discovery, tho. They've often come across as very one-dimensional in the past but they are quite varied and intimidating in ST:D. The scenes are often too long and a bit dull but it was good to see them as a brutal-looking threat with some unstable zeal.

(That DS9 Trouble With Tribbles episode is a contender for best Trek episode ever, in my book)

Between DS9, TNG and Enterprise, I do not think Klingons were shown as one dimensional at all. We got to see Klingon lawyers, and a look into not just their justice system, but how the system is viewed by those inside. We got to see Klingon scientists and engineers and how they view the culture as well.

Maybe Discovery does more? But as of now, they're just brutes who don't seem realistically capable of so technologically advanced.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 10:08:18 AM by Adami »
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2391 on: April 18, 2020, 10:07:19 AM »
Yeah, you're right. There was a lot of culture building across the years.
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2392 on: April 18, 2020, 10:13:05 AM »
Holy moly these people are dumb.

Chief security officer: I have an idea, I'm going to let a huge violent creature that killed a ton of people out of it's cage and shoot it.
Shocking to everyone, creature murders security officer who accomplished nothing at all. Brilliant.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2393 on: April 18, 2020, 06:20:40 PM »
4 episodes or so into Discovery.

Do these writers just hate Star Trek? Good lord. Everyone is such a dick. Everything is dark and ultra gritty. The spore drive is just plain dumb.


Fullers 'dark and gritty' influence.  You'll see them try and reverse this as the season progresses.  Same with the Klingon stuff.  The show definatly suffers the weak first season syndrome that's plagued all the spin off shows, it's not TNG season 1 levels of badness but it doesn't really find it's grove till a couple of mid season episodes (sadly the last couple of episodes are weak also).   There are also way to many twists in season one too, a lot are probabky the writers trying to course correct.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2394 on: April 18, 2020, 06:24:02 PM »
4 episodes or so into Discovery.

Do these writers just hate Star Trek? Good lord. Everyone is such a dick. Everything is dark and ultra gritty. The spore drive is just plain dumb.


Fullers 'dark and gritty' influence.  You'll see them try and reverse this as the season progresses.  Same with the Klingon stuff.  The show definatly suffers the weak first season syndrome that's plagued all the spin off shows, it's not TNG levels of badness but it doesn't really find it's grove till a couple of mid season episodes (sadly the last couple of episodes are weak also).   There are also say to many twists in season one too, a lot are probabky the writers trying to course correct.

I think it depends on type of badness. I don't see this badness as "better" than TNG's badness. They're just very different ways of being bad. I gotta say, this is hard to get through. I'll still do it, but I literally don't like any character minus Doug Jones and they're even trying to make him unlikable.

And maybe it is Fuller's fault, but Picard was just as guilty of all of this stuff.

Also, for some reason this stuck with me.

"Welcome to Discovery, it's a science ship"
Literally the next episode
"DISCOVERY IS NOW A WAR SHIP!!!"
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2395 on: April 18, 2020, 06:31:33 PM »
4 episodes or so into Discovery.

Do these writers just hate Star Trek? Good lord. Everyone is such a dick. Everything is dark and ultra gritty. The spore drive is just plain dumb.


Fullers 'dark and gritty' influence.  You'll see them try and reverse this as the season progresses.  Same with the Klingon stuff.  The show definatly suffers the weak first season syndrome that's plagued all the spin off shows, it's not TNG levels of badness but it doesn't really find it's grove till a couple of mid season episodes (sadly the last couple of episodes are weak also).   There are also say to many twists in season one too, a lot are probabky the writers trying to course correct.

I think it depends on type of badness. I don't see this badness as "better" than TNG's badness. They're just very different ways of being bad. I gotta say, this is hard to get through. I'll still do it, but I literally don't like any character minus Doug Jones and they're even trying to make him unlikable.

And maybe it is Fuller's fault, but Picard was just as guilty of all of this stuff.

There is nothing anywhere near as terrible as 'code of honour', 'justice', 'Angel one', 'when the bough breaks'  and that after school special drugs are bad episode!!  To name a few awful ones!!
I think the only good ones are the binary aliens one and 'conspiracy' (which they never go back too!)

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2396 on: April 18, 2020, 06:37:27 PM »
Like I said, different kinds of bad. Context changes a few things. Bad from the late 80's of a show establishing a voice is different than bad from the mid-late 2010's with a show that has 40+years of a philosophy established and then very quickly pissing all over it.

And I'm not defending Code of Honor or any of those. They're awful. Just a very different type of awful. 
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2397 on: April 18, 2020, 06:50:30 PM »
Like I said, different kinds of bad. Context changes a few things. Bad from the late 80's of a show establishing a voice is different than bad from the mid-late 2010's with a show that has 40+years of a philosophy established and then very quickly pissing all over it.

I'm not looking at it with modern eyes.  I watched it in the 80's and it was bad even when it first aired, and TNG very much felt like it was pissing all over the TOS legacy.  But it got better, much better.
Weird thing I always find about the first season of TNG - Worf and La Forge don't really have roles - they are just kind off there.  And they go though like 3 different chief engineers.  Worf obviously gets moved the security when Yarr gets eaten by the evil oil slick and Geordi finally goes to the engine room in season 2 - but so weird they didn't really have a role in season one.  And Troi also, you can argue they never really worked out what to do with her full stop - but season 1 Troi is amusingly underused, and that uniform!!

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2398 on: April 19, 2020, 12:56:37 AM »
AFAIC Star Trek has always been patchy, frequently ridiculous, takes a while to start and Discovery is no different in that regard.

There's a lot more togetherness, inclusivity and positivity in the show as it goes on.
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Offline ErHaO

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2399 on: April 22, 2020, 12:07:44 PM »
Relative newcomer:

So outside of the JJ Abraham films and the first season of Discovery I had never seen any Star Trek. I know those aren't really representative for Star Trek and a lot of fans seem to dislike them, but from a newcomer's perspective I really enjoyed the 2009 film and Beyond quite a bit (into darkness dissapointed me though). I was entertained by Discovery when it launched on Netflix, I did not have any major issues with it but don't recall a lot from it either, I have not seen season 2.

That being said, because I like Patrick Stewart and the concept of Star Trek, I decided to give TNG a go. I will be honest, at first (like ten episodes in) I thought it was pretty damn bad, sometimes downright awful, and I watch plenty of old "dated"stuff so it isn't just the age. Still, it was oddly entertaining and the internet taught me it will become a lot better. One of the best scifi/superhero seasons ever to me was in Agents of Shield (s4) and the first season of that was really bad (though nowhere near that early TNG episode with the black tribal people, good lord). Sometimes these shows need time to find footing. Turns out that was indeed the case and with some googling I watched a couple of "essential" episodes in s1 and s2 and then watched season 3. I really enjoyed season 3 (and the start of s4 which I also watched). I think it has a great cast of characters and some of the subject matters are interesting/handled really well. I will definitely continue watching it.

From this comes a question. I think the original series may not be for me. But am interested in the films. Are they accessible without having seen the original series? Furthermore, I am also interested in the films of TNG (after I finished the series). Are they worth it? They are not on any streaming services over here so I have to buy them, so that is why I ask.

Online DragonAttack

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2400 on: April 22, 2020, 01:16:58 PM »
^
'Space Seed' is a must to give you a backdrop for ST II.  'Journey To Babel' has Spock's parents on board, which helps with various dynamics in the movies that follow.

There are more than a handful (too numerous to mention?) of good / excellent ones for the backdrop of the main cast relations that others can mention.

(I'd go with 'The Enemy Within', 'The Naked Time', 'The Ultimate Computer', 'The Menagerie 1 and 2', and 'City on the Edge of Forever' as must sees to start.  And maybe 'A Piece Of The Action' and 'The Trouble With Tribbles' for the fun factor).
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2401 on: April 22, 2020, 01:49:08 PM »
Relative newcomer:

So outside of the JJ Abraham films and the first season of Discovery I had never seen any Star Trek. I know those aren't really representative for Star Trek and a lot of fans seem to dislike them, but from a newcomer's perspective I really enjoyed the 2009 film and Beyond quite a bit (into darkness dissapointed me though). I was entertained by Discovery when it launched on Netflix, I did not have any major issues with it but don't recall a lot from it either, I have not seen season 2.

That being said, because I like Patrick Stewart and the concept of Star Trek, I decided to give TNG a go. I will be honest, at first (like ten episodes in) I thought it was pretty damn bad, sometimes downright awful, and I watch plenty of old "dated"stuff so it isn't just the age. Still, it was oddly entertaining and the internet taught me it will become a lot better. One of the best scifi/superhero seasons ever to me was in Agents of Shield (s4) and the first season of that was really bad (though nowhere near that early TNG episode with the black tribal people, good lord). Sometimes these shows need time to find footing. Turns out that was indeed the case and with some googling I watched a couple of "essential" episodes in s1 and s2 and then watched season 3. I really enjoyed season 3 (and the start of s4 which I also watched). I think it has a great cast of characters and some of the subject matters are interesting/handled really well. I will definitely continue watching it.

From this comes a question. I think the original series may not be for me. But am interested in the films. Are they accessible without having seen the original series? Furthermore, I am also interested in the films of TNG (after I finished the series). Are they worth it? They are not on any streaming services over here so I have to buy them, so that is why I ask.


Dragon Attack is half right. You really should watch a handful of essential episodes, like you did with TNG S1 and S2. Probably 6 will do it. And while he was only half right, he wasn't really wrong at all. It's just that you'll get 30 different episodes when you ask for which 6 to watch. That said, Space Seed, while not a great episode in my opinion, will be required viewing. Menageries 1 and 2 and CotEoF should certainly be on the list. I'd probably go with a couple of Kirk/Spock/McCoy episodes, too. After that you just need a couple of episodes that feature McCoy being emotional, Spock being logical, and Kirk being Cignus.
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Offline ErHaO

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2402 on: April 22, 2020, 05:04:55 PM »
Thanks! Then I will watch the films later, for when I have time to explore some of the material from the original series. And who knows, maybe I'll enjoy it. For now though, I will focus on TNG. And having watched a couple of episodes of season 4 just now, I think the first stretch of that season is excellent.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2403 on: April 22, 2020, 05:39:08 PM »
So I'm nearing the final third of season 1 of discovery. Some random thoughts.

- The first 4-6 episodes (I can't recall) are just dreadful. Dreadful.
- The next batch of episodes are considerably better, as everyone said they'd be.
- They are still VERY dumb. The characters are just not written very well, the motivations rarely make any sense, there's little consistency outside of tropes, and they're mostly just plot devices.
- Michael Burnham is a pretty awful actress. Like surprisingly bad considering she's the lead.
- Serak is a completely unrelated character to his other versions and I can't stand it.
- The ideas can be good, but then they go and ruin it with bad characters.
- They have a few moments that feel Star Trek, but the writers are just bad. I'm so annoyed at this. When Star Trek even though DS9 was being done, it was a niche show that had almost no mainstream appeal and a pretty meh budget. They likely couldn't always afford or attract the best writers and yet they still got some fantastic ones. This show IS now mainstream and has a crazy budget and these are the best writers they can find? I put most of the writing quality on par with the Transformers movies.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2404 on: April 22, 2020, 07:40:11 PM »
When Star Trek even though DS9 was being done, it was a niche show that had almost no mainstream appeal.

I think you are underestimating how much of an event the launch of TNG was back in 87.  The original series had been regaining popularity throughout the 80s from constant repeats and the run of successful movies (TNG debuted shortly after The Voyage Home had been a box office smash).  To say it was niche and not mainstream is naive when you look at the figures, and not just in the US.

Agree about Burnham though, she maybe gets slightly better in Season 2 - but still meh.


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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2405 on: April 22, 2020, 07:54:18 PM »
When Star Trek even though DS9 was being done, it was a niche show that had almost no mainstream appeal.

I think you are underestimating how much of an event the launch of TNG was back in 87.  The original series had been regaining popularity throughout the 80s from constant repeats and the run of successful movies (TNG debuted shortly after The Voyage Home had been a box office smash).  To say it was niche and not mainstream is naive when you look at the figures, and not just in the US.

Agree about Burnham though, she maybe gets slightly better in Season 2 - but still meh.

I mean it obviously wasn't something that 20 people watched. But trekkies were a sub culture. It was NOT cool to be into Star Trek.

Star Trek in the 80's and 90's was kind of like DT. Some respect and a dedicated fan base but no one in the mainstream took it seriously outside of some respect for a few actors like Sir Patrick. But Star Trek now is much closer to.......I dunno, whatever band is much more popular.
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2406 on: April 22, 2020, 09:45:38 PM »
Metallica?  Once the fanbase was a rabid cult following; then gained mainstream popularity... and as the popularity in mainstream grew, the product got shittier.

Seems accurate to me.
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2407 on: April 22, 2020, 10:52:34 PM »
I remember the debut of TNG quite well, and while it was a big deal, it was very much not mainstream. It was a big deal because nightly news programs were telling people about the return of Star Trek twenty years after it was cancelled. Everybody knew about it. A whole lot talked about it. Plenty watched the premier. A relative few liked it and followed it.

As for myself, I was pretty typical. I watched the premier and said "uh, that was, different." I watched the first couple of seasons intermittently. I started watching regularly when it started to get good. I was captivated by the time Best of Both Worlds rolled around. That's pretty much the history of TNG, and relative to, say, Cosby, L.A. Law, Cheers, et al, it was a minor blip on the radar while it was happening.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2408 on: April 23, 2020, 12:51:29 AM »
I remember the debut of TNG quite well, and while it was a big deal, it was very much not mainstream. It was a big deal because nightly news programs were telling people about the return of Star Trek twenty years after it was cancelled. Everybody knew about it. A whole lot talked about it. Plenty watched the premier. A relative few liked it and followed it.

As for myself, I was pretty typical. I watched the premier and said "uh, that was, different." I watched the first couple of seasons intermittently. I started watching regularly when it started to get good. I was captivated by the time Best of Both Worlds rolled around. That's pretty much the history of TNG, and relative to, say, Cosby, L.A. Law, Cheers, et al, it was a minor blip on the radar while it was happening.

Those 3 shows you've listed didn't have anywhere near the level of popularity Star Trek has outside the US ( in the UK, certainly not).  TV shows don't generally get follow on cinema release movies unless there is a market for them so that's pretty mainstream.  Red Dwarf or Babalon 5 are more cult/niche sci-fi shows of a similar period.

I'd say Star Trek is more like Springsteen.  Always been popular, but never really cool.  Have a type of fan associated with them (blue collar for The Boss/Geeks for trek).  But mainstream, made cultural impact - most people know who he is, can name at least one song.  Like Trek (in the 80s) most people know of it, and can name a character from the show.  I doubt many people will have heard of Dream Theatre and certainly very few could name a member or song (they are definitely more Babylon 5!!).

In 87' Star Trekkin' (by The Firm) topped the UK singles chart for 2 weeks!!! A song that is basically a bunch of TOS catchphrases throw together over a basic tune.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 02:26:49 AM by soupytwist »

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2409 on: April 23, 2020, 01:18:26 AM »
Double post

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2410 on: April 23, 2020, 11:07:27 AM »
Springsteen was always cool, and much cooler than Trek (and I like Trek).
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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2411 on: April 23, 2020, 04:45:16 PM »
Alright!

Finished season 1 of discovery.


I won't repeat myself, but all of my former criticisms still apply. But god damn did this show put a heavy emphasis on dark. And it's very VERY similar arc wise to Picard. One person who is considered a failure/traitor does a lot of dumb stuff and then eventually tells off the federation which has very happy to completely betray every thing they ever stood for.

Seriously, the federation wanted to commit genocide and blow up a god damn planet?

When they put evil captain in charge at the end, I was like "Oh they're gonna pretend she's in charge but Burnham calls the shots"..........nope! They literally just put her in charge.

Every single character was dumb as a box of rocks. Just pure stupidity. I can't help but think the writers just aren't very intelligent or something because it seems they're trying to be smart and clever but every character is about 10 steps behind the god damn viewer.

Yea, it was fun at times, and definitely better than Picard but holy moly is it hard to not shake my head at the whole thing. And why did they do such a massive redesign of the Enterprise at the end? I mean, that ship was in TOS, TNG, Enterprise, and DS9 (to varying degrees) and they always tried to respect the original design as much as possible. But this design was just straight out of the JJ Abrams movies.

So, I honestly cannot see this as a prime timeline show. This makes sense in the Kelvin time line because everyone there is dumb or evil and the technology is super advanced, but prime timelime? Doesn't fit in the slightest bit.


Hoping season 2 is better. I doubt it, but hopefully it'll at least be more fun. I like Anson so him as Pike should be cool.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2412 on: April 24, 2020, 04:51:22 AM »
Captain Pike is very good in season 2. He has a little of the old Kirk swagger but, obviously, more grounded. :tup

Talking of swagger I loved Chris Pine as Kirk. He did an incredible job. Bummed that we likely won't see another Trek movie with that cast.

And why did they do such a massive redesign of the Enterprise at the end? I mean, that ship was in TOS, TNG, Enterprise, and DS9 (to varying degrees) and they always tried to respect the original design as much as possible. But this design was just straight out of the JJ Abrams movies.

The Enterprise original / A variants looks amazing in all forms, imo, but especially this one in Discovery. VERY similar to TOS. Great job.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2413 on: April 24, 2020, 05:55:05 AM »
I think Discovery did a good job with redesigning the original Enterprise. It is faithful to the original 60's model while being updated tastefully. I especially like the interior, and that is going to get shown more in season 2.

I think this redesign is far better than the variant in JJ's movies.

Online Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2414 on: April 24, 2020, 06:07:15 AM »
But it makes no sense to redesign in the first place, it's supposed to be the same damn thing in the same damn timeline. It's not that it looks ugly now, it's that the mindset behind it is dumb. I mean, I guess for casual viewers who aren't terribly invested in Trek it's not a big deal, but for someone like me, it's just weird and silly.

But again, of all the issues I had with season 1, that is such a tiny minuscule one. Definitely not the one to focus on.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 06:45:08 AM by Adami »
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