Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[soupytwist]

The first Season of ToS is without doubt the best first Season of any Star Trek series - it's not even a debate.  However whereas the 80's and 90's spin-off shows (and Disco) tended to improve (dramatically in the case of TNG) ToS got weaker.  Season 2 is still good, but the there are fewer great episodes and a handful more duds.....Season 3 though is mostly weak - and it's no surprise it didn't survive.   I still think ToS season 1 though is better than any other Star Trek season aside from maybe peak DS9 (seasons 5 and 6).

It's interesting to see how different people view different shows/era's.   For me the worst Trek is the late 90's early 00's stuff (aside from the final seasons of DS9) Voyager, Enterprise + Insurrection and Nemesis.    I much prefer Disco, Picard and the Reboot movies over that flat era of bland characters in mostly weak stories.

[jammindude]

On that note, I really wish the animated series got more attention.   The writing had to be more compact to fit in a half hour "kids" show...but it's the same writers that were used in ToS.  And in many ways, they didn't have the restrictions they had in ToS because special effects weren't as much of an issue.   If you needed a freaky alien or a lush background, you could just draw it instead of doing makeup and having a set built. 

Not sure if many people realize that, while it was not considered "canon" for years...the legal rights were secured just a few years ago, and it is now considered the de facto "Season 4" of ToS.  So it is now canon.   And the writing is surprisingly adult considering it was supposed to be a Saturday morning kids show.   I don't think it gets enough love.   If you haven't seen it, watch it.

[Adami]

On that note, I really wish the animated series got more attention.   The writing had to be more compact to fit in a half hour "kids" show...but it's the same writers that were used in ToS.  And in many ways, they didn't have the restrictions they had in ToS because special effects weren't as much of an issue.   If you needed a freaky alien or a lush background, you could just draw it instead of doing makeup and having a set built. 

Not sure if many people realize that, while it was not considered "canon" for years...the legal rights were secured just a few years ago, and it is now considered the de facto "Season 4" of ToS.  So it is now canon.   And the writing is surprisingly adult considering it was supposed to be a Saturday morning kids show.   I don't think it gets enough love.   If you haven't seen it, watch it.

I'm gonna be completely honest with you, the only reason I don't watch TAS is because I can't stand the animation style. I know that's shallow and I'm missing out on great stories, and maybe I'll watch it one day, but I generally just skip it.

[jammindude]

On that note, I really wish the animated series got more attention.   The writing had to be more compact to fit in a half hour "kids" show...but it's the same writers that were used in ToS.  And in many ways, they didn't have the restrictions they had in ToS because special effects weren't as much of an issue.   If you needed a freaky alien or a lush background, you could just draw it instead of doing makeup and having a set built. 

Not sure if many people realize that, while it was not considered "canon" for years...the legal rights were secured just a few years ago, and it is now considered the de facto "Season 4" of ToS.  So it is now canon.   And the writing is surprisingly adult considering it was supposed to be a Saturday morning kids show.   I don't think it gets enough love.   If you haven't seen it, watch it.

I'm gonna be completely honest with you, the only reason I don't watch TAS is because I can't stand the animation style. I know that's shallow and I'm missing out on great stories, and maybe I'll watch it one day, but I generally just skip it.

If you walk in expecting ST:TOS S1, you might be mildly disappointed.   If you walk in expecting a Saturday morning kids show, you're going to be thoroughly impressed.    On the whole, I think most people would say it was better than TOS S3. 

[Adami]

I’m 35. If I’m watching an old Saturday morning kids show, it’s completely built on nostalgia for it. I’ve seen a few episodes of TAS as an adult and the animation just took me out of it too much. Sorry. Maybe one day.

Like I said, it’s 100% the animation. Not the story telling.

[Orbert]

I remember when the animated series was on, and my friends and I scoffed at the idea.  I mean, we were just idiot kids, but Star Trek was a "real" show, and the idea of reducing it to a Saturday-morning cartoon seemed quite an insult to the show, and by extension, to its fans.

But I caught a couple of episodes, and was quite surprised by how sophisticated the stories were, and was particularly impressed by the voice actors, how much they sounded like the original cast.  I didn't realize at the time that most of the original cast actually did the voice work.  Yeah, the animation is bad, but for a cartoon show in 1973 or whatever it was, that wasn't an issue.

[jammindude]

I remember when the animated series was on, and my friends and I scoffed at the idea.  I mean, we were just idiot kids, but Star Trek was a "real" show, and the idea of reducing it to a Saturday-morning cartoon seemed quite an insult to the show, and by extension, to its fans.

But I caught a couple of episodes, and was quite surprised by how sophisticated the stories were, and was particularly impressed by the voice actors, how much they sounded like the original cast.  I didn't realize at the time that most of the original cast actually did the voice work.  Yeah, the animation is bad, but for a cartoon show in 1973 or whatever it was, that wasn't an issue.

Actually, they were originally only going to get Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelly.   But Nimoy cried foul and pointed out that they were cutting the diversity out of the show by not using Nicholls, Takei, and Koenig.   So Nimoy went to bat and got Nicholls and Takei hired on...but they still couldn't afford Koenig.   But they made that up to him by buying and using one of his written scripts for the show. "The Infinite Vulcan"

[Orbert]

Cool stuff! 

There was an episode with Spock time-travelling back to visit his younger self, who was going through some shit.  He told his younger self that he was some distant cousin or something.  I remember thinking Damn, that's a really great Nimoy impression!  And the Shatner is good, too.  All of these guys are great!  In my head, I think it was a given that it wasn't them.   

[El Barto]

I remember when the animated series was on, and my friends and I scoffed at the idea.  I mean, we were just idiot kids, but Star Trek was a "real" show, and the idea of reducing it to a Saturday-morning cartoon seemed quite an insult to the show, and by extension, to its fans.

But I caught a couple of episodes, and was quite surprised by how sophisticated the stories were, and was particularly impressed by the voice actors, how much they sounded like the original cast.  I didn't realize at the time that most of the original cast actually did the voice work.  Yeah, the animation is bad, but for a cartoon show in 1973 or whatever it was, that wasn't an issue.

Actually, they were originally only going to get Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelly.   But Nimoy cried foul and pointed out that they were cutting the diversity out of the show by not using Nicholls, Takei, and Koenig.   So Nimoy went to bat and got Nicholls and Takei hired on...but they still couldn't afford Koenig.   But they made that up to him by buying and using one of his written scripts for the show. "The Infinite Vulcan"

And Doohan voiced pretty much every other character.

[jammindude]

Yup...good call. I’m actually ashamed I overlooked that.

[soupytwist]

We never got the Animated Series in the UK (or at least if we did I wasn't aware of it).  So I only got to watch it quite recently when Netflix added all things Star Trek a few years ago.  Like Adami the animation killed it for me, movement felt so stilted and with the episodes being only 20 minutes long it just felt bad.

[Adami]

So I just want to do one more shout out to Enterprise. During my rewatch I think it gets a very unfair rap.

Yes. The theme song is awful. Awful.
Yes. Some of the secondary characters were bland, like whatever the black kid's name is.
Yes. The first two seasons are a bit boring.
Yes. The last season is mostly fan fic.

THAT SAID

Many of the characters are pretty damn good. Hoshi is a bit meh at times, but she has great moments. I maintain that Phlox, Trip, T'Pol, and Archer are great characters and Reed even has some good moments.
The boring episodes aren't so bad. They can be, but they have some really amazing episodes those first two seasons.
The third season is like 90% amazing. A handful of dumb filler episodes that can be erased, but that happens with any 22 or whatever episode season. But season 3 did what a lot of Picard tried to do and actually succeeded at it as far as the moral ambiguity goes.
And yes, while season 4 is largely (though not entirely) fan fic style of TOS, it's really well done. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

So for everyone who saw a few episodes and gave up, give it another shot. Don't expect the adrenaline based ST of 2009 onward, but imagine a decent mix of TOS (with better production) and the other ST shows and you might dig it.

Feel free to mute the theme song.

[ProfessorPeart]

Enterprise is actually my second fave behind DS9.

Regarding Discovery, I will echo pretty much everyone else. Season 1 is okay. As a lifelong Trek fan I did struggle a bit with some of it. Season 2, however, is fantastic.

So I would tell Adami to stomach season 1 so you can get to season 2.

[Adami]

Oh, however I feel about it, I'm watching both seasons of Discovery. Just like I'm watching every episode of TOS, no matter how bad it gets in the second half or so.

Only skipping TAS and the JJ movies since those don't count to me.

[soupytwist]

Yes. The theme song is awful. Awful.
Yes. Some of the secondary characters were bland, like whatever the black kid's name is.
Yes. The first two seasons are a bit boring.
Yes. The last season is mostly fan fic.

I agree with all of that.

Many of the characters are pretty damn good. Hoshi is a bit meh at times, but she has great moments. I maintain that Phlox, Trip, T'Pol, and Archer are great characters and Reed even has some good moments.
The boring episodes aren't so bad. They can be, but they have some really amazing episodes those first two seasons.
The third season is like 90% amazing. A handful of dumb filler episodes that can be erased, but that happens with any 22 or whatever episode season. But season 3 did what a lot of Picard tried to do and actually succeeded at it as far as the moral ambiguity goes.
And yes, while season 4 is largely (though not entirely) fan fic style of TOS, it's really well done. I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

I agree and disagree here.  I don't really think any of Enterprises characters are great, infact I just find them all pretty mediocre - which is also positive because there aren't any outright badly written ones you just automatically hate  - like half the cast of Voyager!   But it also means there isn't an engaging enough character to really get behind (at least Voyager had The Doctor and Seven). Trip is probably the best of the bunch, but he tended to a lot get terrible episodes.

Season 3 is the best....but it has the problem a lot of arc based shows have where they have too many episodes for the story.  Really the story would have been much better over 8-10 intense episodes, but 20+ means things get dragged out with to much filler.  Also the final episode of Season 3 - the finale of the Xindi story is a bit crap really, all cliches and technobabble and a really, really stupid time travel ending.  Typical Berman and Braga fare really.

[Polarbear]

Enterprise literally has zero standout characters! They are all like a bland soup of people..

Voyager has Seven and The Doctor (and Tuvok IMO), Discovery has Saru and Picard has Raffi.

I Still maintain that Enterprise is still EASILY the worst spinoff show Star Trek has ever had.

[Adami]

Enterprise literally has zero standout characters! They are all like a bland soup of people..

Voyager has Seven and The Doctor (and Tuvok IMO), Discovery has Saru and Picard has Raffi.

I Still maintain that Enterprise is still EASILY the worst spinoff show Star Trek has ever had.

I can respect that. I disagree, but I can see your point.

Except Raffi? I mean, Picard has Juan Solo. Raffi was horrible by the end. All she did was complain and vape.

[jingle.boy]

In the handful of episodes I've seen of Enterprise, I really like Archer and Trip (of course, Bakula is a terrific actor, so that helps).  Raffi's quality as a character declined, just as Agnes' improved.  I guess there was a finite amount of interest the writers could hand out to the cast of Picard.

[El Barto]

I generally liked most of the characters in ENT. I just didn't like what they were made to do. Pretty bad writing, honestly. Trip was likeable as the sidekick. Then they made him bitter and angry all the time. T'Pol was fine as a Vulcan, and then they gave her some silly disease to make her more emotional. Then they combined them and it was just awful. I liked Hoshi as the fish out of water, but she never really developed anywhere. I liked Archer well enough, but I never thought he was right as the captain on a ST series.

And I never really saw S3 as being all that different. Obviously it had a season long story arc, but it had just as much filler as any of the other seasons. Not to mention four or five of the worst episodes of the entire series. Let's not forget that S3 brought us Extinction, North Star, Rogue Planet, and Hatchery. It also had Simililitude, which is probably the high water mark for the series, but it was still a pretty typical season, I thought.

[El Barto]

They should have put Picard's marbles in the butterfly. That would have been so much better. In season two he could just flutter around and offer up British commentary while other people do stuff. 

It was, for the most part, pretty enjoyable. God damn, was it was dumb, though. Adami was right. It was just terribly written, and the final twenty minutes might have been worse than These are the Voyages.

[Adami]

So I just finished Enterprise (minus the last episode).

I gotta say, I really liked it. A good number of clunkers, but I really got attached to the crew and I thought that a lot of the episodes were fantastic. It seems, oddly, the last two episodes (again, minus the last episode) dealt with a similar idea as Picard, in the idea of xenophobia and everything, and just handled it SO much better in two episodes than Picard did in 10.

I'm still not even sure HOW Picard handled it since they established that being anti-robot was bad, but then justified every single anti-robot fear.

Anywho. Will start Discover tonight or tomorrow. Don't have high hopes but I'll be open minded and follow through with it all.

[King Postwhore]

Season 3 was gitting on all cylinders.  When UPN halfway through the 4th season started to bump the show on different nights it killed it.

[Adami]

Season 3 was gitting on all cylinders.  When UPN halfway through the 4th season started to bump the show on different nights it killed it.

Dunno. But with a few exceptions I think season 4 was great. First two episodes were meh. The Orion one was meh but a lot of the rest really pretty damn good. Of course it seems a lot of people had no attachment to the crew, which may have been an issue. I loved them. But I can see why the show would be meh if you don’t care much for the crew.

[El Barto]

Season 3 was gitting on all cylinders.  When UPN halfway through the 4th season started to bump the show on different nights it killed it.

Dunno. But with a few exceptions I think season 4 was great. First two episodes were meh. The Orion one was meh but a lot of the rest really pretty damn good. Of course it seems a lot of people had no attachment to the crew, which may have been an issue. I loved them. But I can see why the show would be meh if you don’t care much for the crew.

The one with Khan Noonian Soong didn't work for me. I didn't like Spiner, and while the augments could have been good characters, there was just too much going on. It tried to be too much at once, which was often a problem with season 4. The one with the Andorians was pretty good. Didn't care for the one with Peter Weller, though I always like him. The thing with the Organians didn't work, but was a good idea. IaMD was hit and miss. I honestly don't remember the one with the Klingons. So overall S4 was pretty marginal, I thought.

[King Postwhore]

This is my perception watching week from week. I watched it when it premiered. 

I was tainted be UPN's handling of the airing time.

[soupytwist]

Been way to soft on Enterprise, didn't really want to piss it's fans off......but I'm in a bad mood and need to rant at something!!

Enterprise killed the ST revival.   So many bad decisions in it's creation - first and foremost making Braga the Showrunner, a hack who'd used up his few good idea's years ago and was now riffing of the same boring storylines over and over.
Let's list other mistakes.

- That theme song.  Probably the one thing people remember about the show - it's terrible.

- T'Pol.  Hey guys - remember when Voyager was on the verge of the axe then we added a sexy woman and the show survived?   Let's start with a sexy woman this time...............Ok but you struck lucky with Jeri Ryan, yes she loooked great - but she could act, infact she was bloody great as 7, elevating the material.    So Enterprise gives us T'Pol and promises us the sexiest Star Trek ever (Way to misjudge your fans...) Jolene Blalock is wooden, actually somehow (given the shite scripts) manages to make everything worse.  But Sideboobs and sexy massages.....go fuck yourself Braga.

- The show trying to be a little more like original Star Trek with three main characters and a bunch of lesser ones (and ohboy were they lesser).  But original Trek had Kirk, Spock and Bones....Enterprise had Archer, Tucker and T'Pol - need I say anymore.......and once those 3 failed to carry the show they tried turn it into a more ensemble cast, but no one cared about the other characters by then.

- Archer - "oh boy."  Scott is a decent actor in the right role.  A hangdog everyman - but as a Starship captain.  No.  Stick him in engine room as a put upon chief engineering and that'd be fine.

- When it was on the verge of axing at the end of season 2 because it was shite and most of the fans hated it.  Panic!  Fans love DS9 - let's rip them off and do an all out war series.   So we get Xindi war - which isn't ever close to being as good as the Dominion war and has a crap ending, because Enterprise writers aren't as good.   But at least it's watchable.

- Season 4 got a new showrunner in Manny Coto.  After Enterprise he joined Dexter in 2010 (From Season 5 onwards, when it went downhill).....So this dude has been involved in two of the worst last episodes ever written in Enterprise and Dexter.   He co-wrote the final episode of Dexter, let that sink in.

- But of course the final episode of Enterprise was of course written by Braga and Berman.  Completely tone deaf to what the fans wanted, it seems approriate these hacks put the final nail in the ST coffin for years.  Braga would go in the do Threshold, Tera Nova & Flashforward - all axed after one season.  Yet the guy still gets work.

[jingle.boy]

[soupytwist]

Haha.  Just needed to vent some frustration.

[ReaperKK]

I really need to finish watching Enterprise. I'm in the middle of season 3 now, it's definitely an improved over the previous two seasons.

[Orbert]

My wife has been watching Enterprise, TNG, and Voyager reruns on H&I Channel, and I've caught a bunch because it's important to spend time with your spouse, even if it means doing things you aren't really into.  Like watching Enterprise, TNG, and Voyager reruns on H&I Channel.

From what I've seen -- and I've seen a good 20 or 25 Enterprise episodes now, including the finale -- your assessment is spot-on.

[Adami]

Been way to soft on Enterprise, didn't really want to piss it's fans off......but I'm in a bad mood and need to rant at something!!

Enterprise killed the ST revival.   So many bad decisions in it's creation - first and foremost making Braga the Showrunner, a hack who'd used up his few good idea's years ago and was now riffing of the same boring storylines over and over.
Let's list other mistakes.

- That theme song.  Probably the one thing people remember about the show - it's terrible.

- T'Pol.  Hey guys - remember when Voyager was on the verge of the axe then we added a sexy woman and the show survived?   Let's start with a sexy woman this time...............Ok but you struck lucky with Jeri Ryan, yes she loooked great - but she could act, infact she was bloody great as 7, elevating the material.    So Enterprise gives us T'Pol and promises us the sexiest Star Trek ever (Way to misjudge your fans...) Jolene Blalock is wooden, actually somehow (given the shite scripts) manages to make everything worse.  But Sideboobs and sexy massages.....go fuck yourself Braga.

- The show trying to be a little more like original Star Trek with three main characters and a bunch of lesser ones (and ohboy were they lesser).  But original Trek had Kirk, Spock and Bones....Enterprise had Archer, Tucker and T'Pol - need I say anymore.......and once those 3 failed to carry the show they tried turn it into a more ensemble cast, but no one cared about the other characters by then.

- Archer - "oh boy."  Scott is a decent actor in the right role.  A hangdog everyman - but as a Starship captain.  No.  Stick him in engine room as a put upon chief engineering and that'd be fine.

- When it was on the verge of axing at the end of season 2 because it was shite and most of the fans hated it.  Panic!  Fans love DS9 - let's rip them off and do an all out war series.   So we get Xindi war - which isn't ever close to being as good as the Dominion war and has a crap ending, because Enterprise writers aren't as good.   But at least it's watchable.

- Season 4 got a new showrunner in Manny Coto.  After Enterprise he joined Dexter in 2010 (From Season 5 onwards, when it went downhill).....So this dude has been involved in two of the worst last episodes ever written in Enterprise and Dexter.   He co-wrote the final episode of Dexter, let that sink in.

- But of course the final episode of Enterprise was of course written by Braga and Berman.  Completely tone deaf to what the fans wanted, it seems approriate these hacks put the final nail in the ST coffin for years.  Braga would go in the do Threshold, Tera Nova & Flashforward - all axed after one season.  Yet the guy still gets work.

While I disagree with a lot of that, given what I’ve said about Picard, I’m gonna let this one go. Seems fair. 

[Adami]

Just watched the first two episodes of Discovery. I had seen the first episode on a plane some time ago, but watched it again with the second, since it's a two parter.



......ho....ly....crap.

That was just AWFUL. Everything about it other than production design. It's a very pretty show. A lot of money went into that. Just wish they paid for better writers.

Clearly they don't understand Klingons, Vulcans, or even the Federation. Just all of it was awful.

I heard it gets better. Let's hope so.


I also read that the 3rd season takes place far in the future. Which is good, means I don't have to wait for it before continuing to watch.

I could go on and on, there's just so many awful things. But ugh. No point.

Edit: Don't worry, I won't be commenting on every episode. Let's just assume my stance is what's above. If something changes or I see something REALLY bad, then I'll fill Soupy's heart with my venom.

[soupytwist]

Don't worry I completely accept Disco season one is a mess.  Those first 2 (maybe 3?) Episodes were written by Brian Fuller - who it appeared had a really odd plan with what he wanted to do with the show.  Then he left - most of season 1 is course correction.  Although it still does some weird stuff, and this show will always by hampered by Burnham who is dull and those boring klingons.

[ReaperKK]

I actually thought season 1 of disco started off terribly (much like most ST series) but it did quickly improve. I have yet to watch the second season.

[Adami]

Don't worry I completely accept Disco season one is a mess.  Those first 2 (maybe 3?) Episodes were written by Brian Fuller - who it appeared had a really odd plan with what he wanted to do with the show.  Then he left - most of season 1 is course correction.  Although it still does some weird stuff, and this show will always by hampered by Burnham who is dull and those boring klingons.

I looked it up, looks like Bryan was one of like 4 writers. Why are you placing the blame on him when the other writers have set that direction for Disco and Picard?