Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[Adami]

So, I didn't finish Into Darkness, couldn't stomach past the first 20 minutes or so.

However, a lot of reviews said an issue they had was that, by the end, they had essentially discovered the cure for death in some super blood or something.


Didn't Picard also just discover the cure for all death? I mean, if you can so easily just download everyone's consciousness into a new perfect body............you've eliminated death. That is a pretty big sign of lazy writing because I guaran-god damn-tee that the obvious implications and ramifications will never be examined beyond.....MAYBE...how Picard feels about it himself.

I want to say that the reason I mostly liked the episode, not 100%, but the main reasons were successful psychological manipulation. The episode was still, mostly, extremely poorly written and horribly thought out. They nailed a few key scenes though.

[lonestar]

That was easily my biggest gripe with the episode. The moment I realized Picard was going to die, a voice in the back of my head said "if they upload his conciousness into an android body, you're going to have to concede to Adami without fail that he was right"

[El Barto]

So, I didn't finish Into Darkness, couldn't stomach past the first 20 minutes or so.

However, a lot of reviews said an issue they had was that, by the end, they had essentially discovered the cure for death in some super blood or something.


Didn't Picard also just discover the cure for all death? I mean, if you can so easily just download everyone's consciousness into a new perfect body............you've eliminated death. That is a pretty big sign of lazy writing because I guaran-god damn-tee that the obvious implications and ramifications will never be examined beyond.....MAYBE...how Picard feels about it himself.

That's come up several times, though, including twice in the late sixties. Mudd's androids were already doing that, as was Nurse Chappel's old man (and we all appreciate what he did). And at least one person stuck his marbles in Data's noggin.

[YtseJam]

I just finished watching Picard:

Who the hell is doing the writing on this and what is wrong with them?

The production, listen hard and then extremely loud is obnoxious. What did he/she just say?

The CGI is way overdone.

The ending was clearly a version a) and version b) splice. Do we kill off Picard or keep him for a season 2?

I enjoyed it because I love Jean Luc but otherwise, the story was dumb and not worth following. A binge watch would have been better but doesn't that go against them trying to get subscribers? All in all, I would suggest, sign up, watch the whole thing and then unsubscribe which means it's essentially shit.   

[YtseJam]

Also, they would have been better off following the TNG model with the weekly episodes to attract subscribers and make for more interesting stories. 10 weeks of the same confusing pointless story is very walking deadish. Okay I'm done.

[Adami]

So, I didn't finish Into Darkness, couldn't stomach past the first 20 minutes or so.

However, a lot of reviews said an issue they had was that, by the end, they had essentially discovered the cure for death in some super blood or something.


Didn't Picard also just discover the cure for all death? I mean, if you can so easily just download everyone's consciousness into a new perfect body............you've eliminated death. That is a pretty big sign of lazy writing because I guaran-god damn-tee that the obvious implications and ramifications will never be examined beyond.....MAYBE...how Picard feels about it himself.

That's come up several times, though, including twice in the late sixties. Mudd's androids were already doing that, as was Nurse Chappel's old man (and we all appreciate what he did). And at least one person stuck his marbles in Data's noggin.

I don’t hold TOS to high standards with that. They weren’t trying to create a salient universe. They just wanted to write a bunch of unconnected stories and definitely didn’t anticipate 50 years of stories to come after.

I’ll admit I don’t remember every example of something similar, but didn’t they usually end with the one person who knew the secret biting the dust? In this case, Soong jr can just do this forever.

[jingle.boy]

Maybe the writer had just finished binge watching Altered Carbon??

[Adami]

While the Picard robot thing is NOT my biggest problem with....any of it really, it does really hit me.

As a person who does not believe that a person's entire essence can be reduced to data points, the Picard on the show, to me, is a copy and the real Picard is dead.

That really sucks. Especially since it served literally no purpose what so ever and was as  cheap as anything.

[lonestar]

Again, I totally agree. It was a cheap play for drama. I think a permanent death of another team member would've been much more effective without the lasting repurcussions of the now tainted storyline.

[abydos]

That really sucks. Especially since it served literally no purpose what so ever and was as  cheap as anything.

Summed up the whole show, especially Picard's entire role in it.

[soupytwist]

Didn't Picard also just discover the cure for all death? I mean, if you can so easily just download everyone's consciousness into a new perfect body............you've eliminated death. That is a pretty big sign of lazy writing because I guaran-god damn-tee that the obvious implications and ramifications will never be examined beyond.....MAYBE...how Picard feels about it himself.

Watch : TNG episode 'Inheritance'.   What happened with Picard in this finale fits perfectly into what was already done years ago by Doctor Noonien Soong to his wife Juliana.  It is actually completely canon. 

Here's the backstory if you can't remenber the episode...

"The android duplicate of Doctor Juliana Tainer was created from the contained the consciousness of, the mid-24th century Federation geologist Juliana Soong. This android was designed and created in 2338 by Dr. Noonien Soong to replace his comatose and later deceased Human wife.

After having made it to the Terlina system, the seriously injured Mrs. Soong fell into a coma. In a last attempt to preserve her memory, Soong built a new android and transferred his wife's memories into it, using a synaptic scanning technique. He made several modifications from his earlier androids: skin with the appearance of veins, capillaries, tear ducts, and sweat glands. He also included a feedback processor that sent out a false bio-signal, self-adjusting to mimic Human aging. She was programmed to eventually deactivate, her positronic matrix self-destructing, giving her the appearance of a natural death

Dr. Soong activated her, and much to his surprise, he recalled that "she looked up at me and smiled. She recognized me. It had worked! Here was a life not two minutes old, and as far as she knew I was her husband. She'd just recovered from a terrible injury. It was incredible."

[soupytwist]

And not forgetting the absolutely awful 'Insurrection' (honest I think this is the single worst ST film/episode) is about a fountain of youth.

[jingle.boy]

Canon or not Soong's wife was a one-episode character.  Picard is the franchise of this show, and *the* lead character of 7 seasons + 4 movies.  Slightly different impact of this happening to him vs Soong's wife.

[soupytwist]

Canon or not Soong's wife was a one-episode character.  Picard is the franchise of this show, and *the* lead character of 7 seasons + 4 movies.  Slightly different impact of this happening to him vs Soong's wife.

What actual impact?  Still the same character, personality and memories.   Transporters do pretty much the same thing.

[Adami]

First, yes I remember that episode off the quick description. And it falls under what I said before, it was always the case of the person behind it being dead and the secret dying with them. So that IS in fact quite different. Soong did that to his wife, and as far as I know it was actually presented that she was NOT the actual wife, but a recreation of her after the fact and they just let her believe she was real out of sympathy. Also, again, the secret behind the science was to have been lost with Soong.

So this is very different because it can be done by anyone at any time now.

And no, the insurrection planet is 100% different. Sorry.


And to your last post Soup, this is NOT the same as a transporter. Not even a little. There are lots of philosophical questions about the transporter, but these are not the same things. At all.

[soupytwist]

First, yes I remember that episode off the quick description. And it falls under what I said before, it was always the case of the person behind it being dead and the secret dying with them. So that IS in fact quite different. Soong did that to his wife, and as far as I know it was actually presented that she was NOT the actual wife, but a recreation of her after the fact and they just let her believe she was real out of sympathy. Also, again, the secret behind the science was to have been lost with Soong.

There is probably 3 decades between the Omicron Theta attack to Soong being killed by Lore where the only thing we know about his life was at some point (robot) Juliana left him - so we have no idea who he worked with, or told what.

And yeah it's easy to presume a transporter destroys the body and recreates a new one copy every time it's used.

[Adami]

To your first point, from a story telling perspective, it's in line with what I've said. You didn't address this, but she was presented as a recreation of Soong's wife, not his actual wife in an immortal body.

And the transporters can't fix death. You can't teleport a dying person somewhere and end up with a living person with perfect health and immortality. I think the most they demonstrated was being able to filter out certain pathogens or something, but that was it. So no, it's not the same.

And I still maintain that it served no purpose what so ever.

Maybe I missed it, but can someone explain to me Picard's great sacrifice? He knew he was dying, and was going to die anyway but he told Soji that she could kill him? I dunno. Maybe I missed a line of dialogue (very possible) but I honestly could NOT follow his sacrifice thing what so ever. The only parts I followed were that he was dying and then died. And now he's dead and there's a robot copy who thinks it's Picard.

[soupytwist]

To your first point, from a story telling perspective, it's in line with what I've said. You didn't address this, but she was presented as a recreation of Soong's wife, not his actual wife in an immortal body.

DATA: Then you do not believe she should know the truth?
SOONG: Truth? The truth is, in every way that matters, she is Juliana Soong. I programmed her to terminate after a long life.

And the transporters can't fix death. You can't teleport a dying person somewhere and end up with a living person with perfect health and immortality. I think the most they demonstrated was being able to filter out certain pathogens or something, but that was it. So no, it's not the same.

In 'Rascals' a 'transporters accident'  Picard, Ro and Guinan de-age their bodies back to childhood age.

[Adami]

And neither of those things contradict what I'm saying.


The Soong wife is still a recreation, but as far as SHE'S concerned, she can continue living as if she's the real thing, even though the real one died and this was his way of coping with her death.


And again, this is just a small part of the overall problem.

[El Barto]

They use transporters to cure people all the time. It's not much of a stretch from any of the other dues ex machinas they use to bring back dead people. The only reason they never used transporter patterns to cure a phaser blast to the skull is because it would have been fucking stupid. Not an issue in 2020.

And the truth is that the Picard you (Adami) knew is off doing Gods know what right now. He could be an admiral, or he might have died the day after All Good Things. The one in the series is some alternate universe Picard, and strikingly different than the one we watched in TNG. They could kill this guy off in a different manner every week and it wouldn't make any difference. Actually, that should be season 2.

[Adami]

Still disagree about the transporters being used to cause immortality. But whatever, it's really not a big deal at all.

Also, Bart, that's not the first time you've said that about Picard. While I agree that the Picard of 2020 has little in common with the Picard of 87-200whatever, have the creators stated that this is in a different universe? As far as I know, they keep hammering in that this is a direct sequel to the TNG movies/universe etc. While it CLEARLY doesn't feel like that at all, I just attribute that to the awful writers, and not it being in a different universe.

[jingle.boy]

The fact they continually referred to events of Nemesis, suggests it is a direct continuation of THAT ST universe.

[Adami]

The fact they continually referred to events of Nemesis, suggests it is a direct continuation of THAT ST universe.

Yea, they really were invested in what is widely considered the worst TNG movie. Good choice dudes. Good choice.

[Adami]

Just thought this was really nice.

[ReaperKK]

Very coool!

[lonestar]

Just thought this was really nice.

What's the story behind this?

[Adami]

Yesterday was Marina's birthday. So they all zoomed a happy birthday meeting. Frakes tweeted it out.

[El Barto]

Dorn looks like he still lives in his college dorm. Frakes at his grandmother's, and Wheaton never moved out of mom and dad's.

[El Barto]

Still disagree about the transporters being used to cause immortality. But whatever, it's really not a big deal at all.

Also, Bart, that's not the first time you've said that about Picard. While I agree that the Picard of 2020 has little in common with the Picard of 87-200whatever, have the creators stated that this is in a different universe? As far as I know, they keep hammering in that this is a direct sequel to the TNG movies/universe etc. While it CLEARLY doesn't feel like that at all, I just attribute that to the awful writers, and not it being in a different universe.

If I'm not mistaken Picard is being produced under the Bad Robot license terms, which means that it's necessarily different from the original ST universe by some arbitrarily defined percentage. Moreover, the producers have always been clear that Star Trek exists in an infinite number of universes. Granted, they're doing an awful lot to connect it to the original universe, PS is executive producer which might have something to do with it, but it's not the same universe as TNG-ENT. I posted a video about all of this a couple of weeks ago.

[jingle.boy]

Then they should just fuckin be done with it, and stop trying to hold on to little shreds here and there.  It's only confusing - and clearly pissing off - some fans of TNG ... hardcore or otherwise.

This upsets me even more now, because the plot of this show could've just as easily been done as "Buck", or any other generic sci-fi re-hashed character.  The fact they can only pull a little bit from ST canon simply tells me it was a marketing ploy to call this "Picard", and that's all.  I was giving them the benefit of the doubt for the first few episodes, but now I'm all Adami about this.

[Adami]

I'll take that as a compliment haha.


Well right now, Picard is far and away the worst ST show I've ever seen. Now, I say this not having watched Discovery. What Discover has going for it over Picard is that I don't care a whole lot about any of them from the gate. So dumb decisions won't be as much of a punch in the gut.

I have about half a season to go with Enterprise....which is actually really good on this run through.........and then I start Discovery before moving on to TOS.

I know Enterprise gets crapped on a lot...like a LOT. And yes, the theme song is very very bad. Especially in the 3rd season where it was just the opposite of what the show needed. But the show itself wasn't bad. A decent amount of awful episodes like any other Trek, but some great characters, and was a cool prequel. Season 3 is largely amazing. And thus far season 4 is pretty damn good. Yes, season 4 is largely TOS style fan fic, but it's well done.

So I have 0 hopes for Discovery. I saw the first episode once and it was horrible, but I've heard it improves.

[lonestar]

It does improve greatly, and the second season is outstanding, but I also concede that we have different standards for what comprises 'outstanding' in the Trek world.

[Adami]

It does improve greatly, and the second season is outstanding, but I also concede that we have different standards for what comprises 'outstanding' in the Trek world.

Well I’m gonna watch all of it either way. And I’ll be as open minded as I can.

Honestly I’m least excited for TOS. Some genius episodes. But so many episodes that are painful to get through for a variety of reasons.

[lonestar]

It does improve greatly, and the second season is outstanding, but I also concede that we have different standards for what comprises 'outstanding' in the Trek world.

Well I’m gonna watch all of it either way. And I’ll be as open minded as I can.

Honestly I’m least excited for TOS. Some genius episodes. But so many episodes that are painful to get through for a variety of reasons.

Never done a full run through of TOS, may need to since we got time. I think that argument can be made for all the series. TNG had some seriously painful episodes, especially during the writer's strike Wesley era. DS9 early on did too, but the last three seasons were pure gold, the consistently best Trek storytelling in my mind. We just won't talk about Voyager, a few bright spots but overall just damn.

[DoctorAction]

Discovery is much better than Picard, imo. There's some slowness in season 1, but loads of great characters, actors and events. It moves faster in season 2 and there's even more to enjoy. I think they did a really good overall job making Trek on TV again, balancing the legacy with new ideas, working for a modern tv audience.

There are certainly some pretty serious "erm... hello?" items (I can't wait to see what you say about some of them, Adami  ) and some things drove me a little bonkers while watching it, but overall it felt like Trek and was really entertaining.

Can't wait for season 3.