Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[jingle.boy]

I had no issue with Devil's Due.  Never thought that was ever in the top tier of 'worst episodes'.

[Polarbear]

Suffering through The Fight (VOY) got me thinking about the worst episodes of VOY, and by extension each of the franchises. Listing favorite episodes happens here once or twice a year, but I don't recall anybody trying to list their least favorite, so here goes.

The Empath--Let's torture McCoy for a day or two and see how it goes.
And the Children Shall Suck
The Lights of Zetar-- as a kid it always creeped me out with the garbled voices coming out of people. As an adult it creeps me out anytime Scotty is trying to get laid.

The Child--The last thing TNG needed was giving Troi a maternal sentimentality to whine on and on about.
The OUtcast--Partly because androgynous peopled creep me out, and partly because it was stupid. When they need somebody to score with a person who's not attractive as a male or a female they think of Riker?
Masks--Not only did it not make any sense, but Spiner sucks as anybody not named Data.

Profit and Lace--Ferengi attitudes towards women are fine the way they are. Leave them alone, FFS.
Move Along Home--Stupid game followed by stupider ending.
Crossover--None of the DS9 mirror universe episodes are any good, but the one that started it sucked the most. Frankly, killing Sisko then made the next four more tolerable.

Threshold--Fucking lizards, man.
The Fight--I don't even know that it's supposed to be about, and I just watched [most of] it.
The Thaw--Just insufferable.

Extinction--"one of the singularly most embarrassing episodes of Star Trek I've ever been involved with."  (Braga)
North Star--Yeah! A Western!
Coginitor--Great, more androgynous people.

Really, TNG and DS9 could have been made up entirely of Luwaxana episodes. Also, I've only made it through The FIght most recently, so I'm not entirely up on seasons six and seven of VOY, and all of ENT.

The Thaw??

I thought it was the best episode of the first 2 seasons, excluding the pilot. That scene between Janeway and "Fear" was outstanding. I thought the episode was almost unsettling at times, and ramped up the intensity nicely into a great ending!

[El Barto]

Suffering through The Fight (VOY) got me thinking about the worst episodes of VOY, and by extension each of the franchises. Listing favorite episodes happens here once or twice a year, but I don't recall anybody trying to list their least favorite, so here goes.

The Empath--Let's torture McCoy for a day or two and see how it goes.
And the Children Shall Suck
The Lights of Zetar-- as a kid it always creeped me out with the garbled voices coming out of people. As an adult it creeps me out anytime Scotty is trying to get laid.

The Child--The last thing TNG needed was giving Troi a maternal sentimentality to whine on and on about.
The OUtcast--Partly because androgynous peopled creep me out, and partly because it was stupid. When they need somebody to score with a person who's not attractive as a male or a female they think of Riker?
Masks--Not only did it not make any sense, but Spiner sucks as anybody not named Data.

Profit and Lace--Ferengi attitudes towards women are fine the way they are. Leave them alone, FFS.
Move Along Home--Stupid game followed by stupider ending.
Crossover--None of the DS9 mirror universe episodes are any good, but the one that started it sucked the most. Frankly, killing Sisko then made the next four more tolerable.

Threshold--Fucking lizards, man.
The Fight--I don't even know that it's supposed to be about, and I just watched [most of] it.
The Thaw--Just insufferable.

Extinction--"one of the singularly most embarrassing episodes of Star Trek I've ever been involved with."  (Braga)
North Star--Yeah! A Western!
Coginitor--Great, more androgynous people.

Really, TNG and DS9 could have been made up entirely of Luwaxana episodes. Also, I've only made it through The FIght most recently, so I'm not entirely up on seasons six and seven of VOY, and all of ENT.

The Thaw??

I thought it was the best episode of the first 2 seasons, excluding the pilot. That scene between Janeway and "Fear" was outstanding. I thought the episode was almost unsettling at times, and ramped up the intensity nicely into a great ending!

Yeah, unsettling isn't usually what I want from ST. You'll notice a trend in my picks with that in mind.

[DoctorAction]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

[El Barto]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

[hefdaddy42]

Never watched one episode of Enterprise.

Of course, I am not a fan of "prequel" projects, whether films, books, or TV shows.

[DoctorAction]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

I'd forgotten Hoshi! Good call.

And actually, the mirror universe in Disco was used as a great device and stands apart from all other instances, now I think on it. Eating Kelpien ganglia was genuinely disturbing...

[ReaperKK]

That really was a fucked up scene.

[soupytwist]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

As great as DS9 was, two of it's main cast (arguably THE two main characters) were quite hammy actors - Nana and Avery.  Avery's performance in the show was generally quite odd - he could go completely flat to full Shatner in the space of a few lines!

[El Barto]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

As great as DS9 was, two of it's main cast (arguably THE two main characters) were quite hammy actors - Nana and Avery.  Avery's performance in the show was generally quite odd - he could go completely flat to full Shatner in the space of a few lines!

In some cases bad enough to ruin what should have been very good episodes. Far Beyond the Stars could have been fantastic, were it not for the terrible acting. As I've long said, most of them were pretty bad. They're fantastic as their own characters, but as soon as you ask them to be somebody else it shows their flaws. Spiner is the classic example of that. The mirror universe episodes relied on them playing caricatures of their own characters, and that just meant hamming it up all over the place.

[soupytwist]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

As great as DS9 was, two of it's main cast (arguably THE two main characters) were quite hammy actors - Nana and Avery.  Avery's performance in the show was generally quite odd - he could go completely flat to full Shatner in the space of a few lines!

In some cases bad enough to ruin what should have been very good episodes. Far Beyond the Stars could have been fantastic, were it not for the terrible acting. As I've long said, most of them were pretty bad. They're fantastic as their own characters, but as soon as you ask them to be somebody else it shows their flaws. Spiner is the classic example of that. The mirror universe episodes relied on them playing caricatures of their own characters, and that just meant hamming it up all over the place.

'Our Man Bashir' is another terrible 'alternative characters' acting on DS9.  Kira as a russian spy....and Sisko as the main villian.  Jesus wept!

[ReaperKK]

I don't know about specific episodes but any mirror episode is usually fist-gnawingly hammy. I still shudder thinking of Nerys in black leather, purring and writhing like she's in Cats, and I stand as someone who found her fairly attractive.

She was certainly nicely built, so that should have come off far better than it did. Her acting ruined a decisive advantage she should have had.

In fact, that whole hammy baddy in black leather cliche they have always done is so patheticly bad it makes my brain hurty.

Ezri pulled it off. And let's not forget mirror universe Hot Slutty Hoshi.

As great as DS9 was, two of it's main cast (arguably THE two main characters) were quite hammy actors - Nana and Avery.  Avery's performance in the show was generally quite odd - he could go completely flat to full Shatner in the space of a few lines!

Avery did go full ham sometimes but on the whole I think he is one of the strongest actors in the ST universe. Kira started off terrible but as the seasons went along her character got better and better.

[Adami]

Brooks didn't go full ham. Brooks just well full Brooks.

[soupytwist]

Brooks didn't go full ham. Brooks just well full Brooks.

'The Captains'.

[soupytwist]

Found the first part of the Picard finale quite underwhelming.  The direction was oddly flat too.  Hopefully part two will be better.

[Adami]

Found the first part of the Picard finale quite underwhelming.  The direction was oddly flat too.  Hopefully part two will be better.

Maybe I’ll love it haha.

[soupytwist]

Found the first part of the Picard finale quite underwhelming.  The direction was oddly flat too.  Hopefully part two will be better.

Maybe I’ll love it haha.

[Adami]

Nope! Dumb as hell.


It was less dumb by mere virtue of less happening. Since almost everything that happens is dumb, the less things happen, the less dumb it is. Still super dumb.

[jammindude]

I was an OG fan from the TOS days.  (well....not the original run, although I did see TMP in theaters when it was first released)

I saw TNG from day one and loved most of it.

I feel the way most people do about the movies...with the exception that I adore Insurrection for personal reasons. 

Never could get into DS9, but I heard it got better, so I want to revisit it. 

Wanted to love Voyager because I loved the premise, but it mostly fell flat.   Some brilliant flashes on occasion, but I still enjoy it for what it is. 

Didn't like Discovery at all.  Doesn't feel like Star Trek at all.   Couldn't get past the first few episodes.  Calling that show ST is just wrong to me.


However, Picard is another story.   I **LOVE** this show.   I absolutely feel that this show captures what Star Trek is now.   There's a dash of the old, and making it fresh and original at the same time.   It's a mishmash of familiarity and new elements (not new per se, but new to ST) that are sometimes needed to give things a fresh perspective.   

[jammindude]

I will state further that the pacing of the show is the best part of it, and I'm afraid it is something they will do away with.  It's the intricate dialog and slower pacing that makes it so much more personal.   

[DoctorAction]

I will state further that the pacing of the show is the best part of it, and I'm afraid it is something they will do away with.  It's the intricate dialog and slower pacing that makes it so much more personal.

I've not seen the latest episode yet. It's a Friday thing for me. But I totally get what you're saying. There are a lot of aspects I love about Picard and that's a key one. The slow character work and great acting.

[soupytwist]

I was an OG fan from the TOS days.  (well....not the original run, although I did see TMP in theaters when it was first released)

I saw TNG from day one and loved most of it.

I feel the way most people do about the movies...with the exception that I adore Insurrection for personal reasons. 

Never could get into DS9, but I heard it got better, so I want to revisit it. 

Wanted to love Voyager because I loved the premise, but it mostly fell flat.   Some brilliant flashes on occasion, but I still enjoy it for what it is. 

Didn't like Discovery at all.  Doesn't feel like Star Trek at all.   Couldn't get past the first few episodes.  Calling that show ST is just wrong to me.


However, Picard is another story.   I **LOVE** this show.   I absolutely feel that this show captures what Star Trek is now.   There's a dash of the old, and making it fresh and original at the same time.   It's a mishmash of familiarity and new elements (not new per se, but new to ST) that are sometimes needed to give things a fresh perspective.

I'd definately give DS9 another shot.  Also Disco too - although it depends on how far you got, if you got past episode 5 and still hated it then it's probably not worth continuing.  Disco's first few episodes are a total mess - you don't even get introduced to most of the cast till episode 4 (i think).  Season 1 in general was 'OK' - but it really picked up in Season 2 and there are loads of well done links to ToS including Captain Pike (who was brilliant).

[Adami]

I will state further that the pacing of the show is the best part of it, and I'm afraid it is something they will do away with.  It's the intricate dialog and slower pacing that makes it so much more personal.

I would replace the word intricate with stupid, but I agree the pacing is......slower? Still way too focused on Star Wars like action. In fact, this is way more a Star Wars show than it is a Star Trek show.


Edit: Also apparently anyone, including freaking robots can LEARN a mind meld by reading about it? Is this something they established in Discovery or something? Because that almost made me turn off the show.

Also, those space orchids COULD have been actually really cool. If it was made by some alien race or something. But instead it was made by robots who were made by humans from earth. It was just the least well thought out version of what could've been a cool idea.

[DoctorAction]

Incredible how perceptions vary. On the whole, I'm disappointed with it as a show but I don't see the same things you see, Adami.

The dialogue has impressed me in many cases. The scenes about JL's brain this week and especially the love conversation between Raffi and him was beautifully done, I thought. To get that level of subtly and depth in Trek is unheard of up to this point. The same for Riker/Troi scenes. These kind of interactions referencing last goodbyes and the biggest of losses have been exceptionally well done.

I don't get any Star Wars from this episode at all. Not the slightest whiff. What scenes remind you of that? The physical action scenes are obviously much better than they've ever been in Trek, as they were usually very unconvincing and often laughable in pretty much all prev Trek (bar Discovery?). The space scenes look terrific, obvs, but don't remind me of Star Wars.

Space flowers protecting ships from the atmosphere? Loved it. More, please. I don't understand what "least thought out" means.

Robots learning mind meld? I do like that being Romulan or Vulcan only but we are talking about the most advanced robots imaginable, that have crossed into the definition of synthetic LIFE so presumably the mind's secrets have been discovered, including mind melds. (There's nothing i remember in Discovery about this. Sorry you can't aim this particular crit at that recent Trek series you'd like to trash too.)

You seem happy just to fire negativity at it the new stuff with little explanation except words like "bad" and "stupid". Some people would write off the old Trek as bad and stupid too but it's not a well considered criticism, is it? I get the feeling it's just not your old favourite incarnation of the show, and that's it. I get it. It's hallowed ground  but I think it's deserving more respect than you give it.

[Adami]

You’re free to dismiss my criticism if you’d like. Glad you’re loving the show. As I’ve said many times, I’m glad others love it. I wish I was as well. I really did want to like it. I’d respond more in detail if you’re open minded enough to read it but since you essentially just dismissed all of my objections as nonsensical, I’m not sure it’s worth the effort on my part. Happy to be wrong though.

I’ve made multiple more in depth posts of my issues. But it becomes redundant and time consuming to critically discuss every single issue I have with the show. I’ve even praised certain aspects of the show. Before insulting me, please reread those.

[DoctorAction]

You’re free to dismiss my criticism if you’d like.

I am. There was no need to clarify.

Glad you’re loving the show. As I’ve said many times, I’m glad others love it. I wish I was as well. I really did want to like it.

I'm not loving it. There are lots of positive aspects to it but it's boring me, in the main. I really wanted to like it too.

I’d respond more in detail if you’re open minded enough to read it but since you essentially just dismissed all of my objections as nonsensical, I’m not sure it’s worth the effort on my part. Happy to be wrong though.

Being open-minded means being open to the validity of differing opinions, not pretending to agree when you don't. Responding to points is what a discussion board is for so, sure, go ahead if you want. I haven't dismissed your objections as nonsensical. I've posted different ones, sometimes referring to some specific parts of the show.

I’ve made multiple more in depth posts of my issues. But it becomes redundant and time consuming to critically discuss every single issue I have with the show. I’ve even praised certain aspects of the show. Before insulting me, please reread those.

I'm not insulting you. The point I was making regarding your previous post was that you're using simple, negative words; there's a lot more nuance to be had; and the positive aspects of the show are more deserving of respect than your comments give it.

I've read some of your previous posts, probably all of them regarding Picard. I don't need to re-read them. If you don't want to talk about the show then don't but don't feel insulted as that isn't happening.

[Adami]

Edit: Nevermind. Gonna heed my own advice and not engage. Sorry.

[jingle.boy]

This week's episode had more flaws than strong points, imo.  The mind-meld thing was ridonkulous.  I liked having Spiner back as Son of Soon.  Agnes' whole arc sims wildly all over the place.  I'm curious to see where they're going to go with the Borg Cube.  It seems they're building up to a bigass battle - Romulans, Starfleet, Borg cube, and now (supposedly) Synthetic 'higher-power'.  You gotta believe it's just going to be some alternative 'super-race' trying to wipe the slate clean after they were imprisoned by synthetics 250,000 years ago - or something dumb like that.

All tidied up nice and tight with a bow in 60 minutes next week.

[Adami]

The Soong son thing is a bit mixed for me. I love Spiner, and I thought he brought a lot of natural charm and charisma to that role. Played it great. My problem is simply his very existence. It either completely rewrites Star Trek lore with regard to Data, or assumes a lot of pretty dumb stuff, like that Soong had a son that he never once mentioned, which I feel is odd given all of the Soong episodes prior which either stated or heavily implied that Data and Lore were his only real children. So either Data was completely unaware of Soong son, or he wasn't and no one ever mentioned it ever. If it's the former, then why in god's name do they have a Spot 2? It just felt like a cheap way to get more nostalgia in there and make people connect with what they remember, but it makes no logical sense to me, imo.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote. The characters just seem very poorly thought out. I have no idea what is going on with Agnes, and none if it is very consistent. Rafi.......again, similar. She's got a good actress, but is just so all over the place that I can't tell you very much about her at all. The Romulan Ninja is still an awful character, even if I am warming up to the actor playing him. He is just so one dimensional. Still digging Juan Solo, but he's testing my patience with the inconsistent character writing as well. Many of the characters, even Picard, are played with such charm and charisma, but are written almost entirely as plot devices and a collection of random and unconnected moments. The moments, on their own, such as the "i love you" scene between Rafi and Picard was lovely, but didn't make a lot of sense in context with everything else, at least without more backstory between them.

The whole robot planet started off very Star Trek but just became a joke when they went full Bender with their "kill all humans" thing. Bringing in Picard's Romulan failure? Soong joining them? Eh. It just felt like they knew point B but didn't care how they got there, so they just jumped to it. It just feels like so much of the story is a bullet point of things they want to do with almost no connecting tissue, and no real investment in any of the characters beyond making sure they hit those bullet points.

Anyone else think the robot god species are the ones that V-ger found? They do love to connect random memorable things from previous Trek, so it wouldn't shock me if it's a v-ger connection.

I have no idea what they're going to do with the robot god race. I find it quite silly, shocking, I know, but maybe it'll be interesting. Not excited for a huge space battle, but we'll see.

[jingle.boy]

I can't disagree with a single thing you wrote.  Don't know about the robot god species from Voyager ... I only ever watched a handful of episodes here and there.  Rios' feelings for Agnes seem weird to me - they schtooped once, and now he acts like she's his high-school sweetheart.  I too like Raff's actress, but the character as an on-again / off-again addict, spygames ex-Starfleet officer is just ... I don't comprehend her characters purpose or what she's really there for.  Too many events have happened that just seemed to have no purpose.  I very much get what you're saying that characters are more of a plot device than anything else - Narek the most.

[DoctorAction]

Great post, Adami.

It would be awesome if it were V-ger but I expect it will be more generic than that.

[Adami]

I can't disagree with a single thing you wrote.  Don't know about the robot god species from Voyager ... I only ever watched a handful of episodes here and there.  Rios' feelings for Agnes seem weird to me - they schtooped once, and now he acts like she's his high-school sweetheart.  I too like Raff's actress, but the character as an on-again / off-again addict, spygames ex-Starfleet officer is just ... I don't comprehend her characters purpose or what she's really there for.  Too many events have happened that just seemed to have no purpose.  I very much get what you're saying that characters are more of a plot device than anything else - Narek the most.

Oh, I didn't mean Voyager, V-Ger was from The Motion Picture. The earth probe that encountered a super civilized robot species that sent it back.

[jingle.boy]

Ahhh... right.  I remember virtually nothing from The Motion Picture.

[ReaperKK]

All I remember from the motion picture was how long it seemed. I haven't seen it in years though, I need to fit the movies rewatch in sometime soon.

[jammindude]

As a terribly impatient ADD child, I thought TMP was boring as heck.   As a 50 yr old adult with more of a taste for slower paced story telling (see: the original Planet of the Apes and The Andromeda Strain) I watch TMP today and like it quite a bit.   In fact I put it above 3 and 5.