Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[lonestar]

 

[abydos]

sometimes ST:Picard is so talky it almost feels like a documentary, where Patrick Stewart is interviewing various ppl

YT comments are fun 

[Adami]

Also, I'm starting to think that the writers don't really get who Picard is for the most part. Some definite exceptions, but there's a number of aspects about the character that seem pretty off.

More so than the movies where he kept flipping out and turning into John McClain?

Well, that didn't bother me quite as much because he was still (minus Nemesis to some degree) the same guy, just needing to adapt to a new situation. It's also why I don't think it suits movies well. Movies need to make it action heavy, which tends to be a bit not-trecky. But even in First Contact and that other one about the dudes who get tons of face lifts and stuff, he was still the same character. He was just that character in situations that required a lot more action. And given that Starfleet is (at least partial) military, that didn't bother me.

This Picard isn't entirely different than the Picard we know, but I feel like the writers read a wiki article on him and missed a few important things. Picard is not comfortable around kids. Picard is largely very formal and proper. This Picard is just having a ball playing with kids with no discomfort at all, and is extremely silly and laid back much of the time. I get that characters change after 20 years, but you kind of have to justify some of it. You can't just change tons of stuff and be like "well that just happens." It's bad writing.

That moment when Picard got very stern with the sometimes British Romulan ninja kid was when I was like "Oh yea, THAT'S Picard" and made me realize how not-Picard he had been at times.



Also, unrelated to the character, but watching the show....is this just a pure capitalist world now? I keep getting hints that the federation has essentially gone (to some degree) capitalist or something. I dunno. It just feels so antithetical to what Star Trek was.


I will say, however, I am enjoying the expansion on the Romulans. After hating what they did with the Klingons in the JJ verse, I like making the Romulans a much more dynamic and diverse peoples, and not just identical soldier/spies.

[jingle.boy]

Also, I'm starting to think that the writers don't really get who Picard is for the most part. Some definite exceptions, but there's a number of aspects about the character that seem pretty off.

I'm starting to agree with you.  While I'm enjoying this very much, it doesn't deserve the Star Trek moniker.  Nice to finally get 7.  Wonder if they'll explain how they know each other - or maybe I'm mis-remembering things (I never did watch the entirety of Voyager).

[ReaperKK]

I'm sure 7 knows of Picard because of his run as Locutus, but it'll be interesting to see if they had a relationship after voyager returned.

[hefdaddy42]

I am doing a selective re-watch of Voyager right now.

Yesterday I saw "Bride of Chaotica!"  Holy shitballs, what fun!  Or maybe I'm just weird.

[ReaperKK]

That is a fun ep, come to think of it there were a lot of fun eps in voyager.

I'm currently half way through of season 3 of Enterprise and I'm really enjoying it. I'm curious if the show got a full 7 season run what it would've developed into.

[Adami]

That is a fun ep, come to think of it there were a lot of fun eps in voyager.

I'm currently half way through of season 3 of Enterprise and I'm really enjoying it. I'm curious if the show got a full 7 season run what it would've developed into.

I'm also on season 3. A few duds, but mostly really great stuff.

The MAIN problem with season 3, which didn't bother me much in the first 2 seasons (though it did everyone else) is the theme song. Most of season 3 has a super dark moody intro and then you get this very upbeat inspiring theme song and it just REALLY sounds off.

[ReaperKK]

I agree with you and I completely forgot that they changed the theme song slightly for season 3 onward.

[Adami]

I agree with you and I completely forgot that they changed the theme song slightly for season 3 onward.

I think if they gave it a more typical ST theme song, and shortened season 3 from 23 or whatever episodes to maybe 13? I think it'd be one of the best seasons of any ST show.

[soupytwist]

Also, I'm starting to think that the writers don't really get who Picard is for the most part. Some definite exceptions, but there's a number of aspects about the character that seem pretty off.

More so than the movies where he kept flipping out and turning into John McClain?

Well, that didn't bother me quite as much because he was still (minus Nemesis to some degree) the same guy, just needing to adapt to a new situation. It's also why I don't think it suits movies well. Movies need to make it action heavy, which tends to be a bit not-trecky. But even in First Contact and that other one about the dudes who get tons of face lifts and stuff, he was still the same character. He was just that character in situations that required a lot more action. And given that Starfleet is (at least partial) military, that didn't bother me.

This Picard isn't entirely different than the Picard we know, but I feel like the writers read a wiki article on him and missed a few important things. Picard is not comfortable around kids. Picard is largely very formal and proper. This Picard is just having a ball playing with kids with no discomfort at all, and is extremely silly and laid back much of the time. I get that characters change after 20 years, but you kind of have to justify some of it. You can't just change tons of stuff and be like "well that just happens." It's bad writing.

That moment when Picard got very stern with the sometimes British Romulan ninja kid was when I was like "Oh yea, THAT'S Picard" and made me realize how not-Picard he had been at times.



Also, unrelated to the character, but watching the show....is this just a pure capitalist world now? I keep getting hints that the federation has essentially gone (to some degree) capitalist or something. I dunno. It just feels so antithetical to what Star Trek was.


I will say, however, I am enjoying the expansion on the Romulans. After hating what they did with the Klingons in the JJ verse, I like making the Romulans a much more dynamic and diverse peoples, and not just identical soldier/spies.

I put the small changes in Picard down to in the TNG he was very much a company man.  All his decisions and opinions were though the prism of Starfleet and the Prime Directive.   We now meet a Picard removed from Starfleet (not on good terms) for 14 years, I think the changes mostly make sense. 
TNG generally wasn't big on character development but we did see Picard's dislike of children thaw though his relationship with Wesley.

[Adami]

And I agree with some of that, for sure. But not all of it. I think a lot of the changes fall into "Well...he changed off camera, just go with it" which works for very passive viewing, but not great writing. For me, specifically, at least.

But like I said, I didn't even really notice until he fully acted like Picard on occasion. Stewart is just so good that I went along for the ride until those moments when the writers got it right, which made me realize they had been getting it wrong prior.

I think the show made some really great characters (well some anyway) in Picard (duh) his two staff people, Daj (before she died) and that Spanish captain dude. The friend who keeps calling him JL isn't bad but she REALLY needs to stop calling him JL immediately, and Allison Pill is just kind of there. The young hot Romulans are kind of meh and Daj's sister is pretty meh.

I think where they're getting lost is make the show about solving 20 mysteries. Where's Bruce Maddox? What happened to Data's body? Who is Daj and her sister whatever? Why are the Romulans on a Borg ship? What happened to the last Romulan ship assimilated? Why did the robots attack Mars? Why are the super Romulan CIA inflitrating the federation? Why did the federation turn on Picard that way? Why does Rafi want to go to wherever she secretly wants to go to?

You know? It's just SO many mysteries that most other modern TV is doing but was never really what Star Trek was about. And that's just the first few episodes! You need a mystery to drive the plot because you don't have enough faith in the characters? Fine, pick one or two of those things at most. But now it's just such a huge mess of intrigue that I don't end up caring about any of it.

[jingle.boy]

I see where you're coming from, and agree with a bunch of that.  Having multiple mysteries might be ok if it was longer than a 10-episode run, but yeah... I'm kinda bummed that we don't get the Maddox/Data issue explored more.  The root of the story apparently revolves around Soji and the "rest" of them.  There's a lot of sub-plots that don't seem like they'll get fleshed out properly... or other things that get glossed over.  I'd like to hear more about Captain Rios and his history with Starfleet.

[Adami]

Also, I'm right that all of the holograms on that ship are the same actor, right?

Cause I actually really dig that. Having the same actor playing multiple characters like that is actually a really cool idea and speaks to his ego that he'd program that.

[hefdaddy42]

Also, I'm right that all of the holograms on that ship are the same actor, right?

Yes.

Cause I actually really dig that. Having the same actor playing multiple characters like that is actually a really cool idea and speaks to his ego that he'd program that.

I like it too.

[El Barto]

Sounds like a great idea. And yeah, speaks to his personality, both of his self confidence, and lack of confidence in others.

Reading this thread I come across a lot of great ideas that make me want to give it a chance, and a lot of stupid things that make me roll my eyes and think how typical of modern "Star Trek."

[Adami]

Sounds like a great idea. And yeah, speaks to his personality, both of his self confidence, and lack of confidence in others.

Reading this thread I come across a lot of great ideas that make me want to give it a chance, and a lot of stupid things that make me roll my eyes and think how typical of modern "Star Trek."

It has great elements and a ton of bad ones.

The writers also clearly hated the world of Star Trek (which you might appreciate of them Bart) or they just have no idea what the federation actually is. Because the federation and society in general in this show bares basically no resemblance from any other Star Trek except when section 31 would do shady stuff. The world seems largely capitalist in nature, people are racist and selfish, everything is completely corrupt, and the system is BAD.

Also, in watching a review of the show, someone reminded me of ANOTHER mystery in the show. That the super secret Romulan police have a profound secret so disturbing that it would break apart a person's mind, and that they've been around thousands of years. UGH.

[El Barto]

I didn't hate the world of the federation at all. I quite liked it, in fact. I just hated that its finest citizens were soulless drones. I can certainly see how a Federation built for modern audiences would have to look like the US, though. Imagination not really being the target audience's strong suit, and all.

And I gather the super-secret Romulan police are something other than the Tal Shiar? Those guys were so far beyond the pale I hardly see why they'd need their own Section 31 in addition to.

[Adami]

I didn't hate the world of the federation at all. I quite liked it, in fact. I just hated that its finest citizens were soulless drones. I can certainly see how a Federation built for modern audiences would have to look like the US, though. Imagination not really being the target audience's strong suit, and all.

And I gather the super-secret Romulan police are something other than the Tal Shiar? Those guys were so far beyond the pale I hardly see why they'd need their own Section 31 in addition to.

Yea, the Federation just bares no resemblance to what it had. It's almost as if Section 31 took over and just undid everything.

As for the Romulan stuff, I'm calling it the super secret police cause their name is dumb and hard to remember. But no, they are not the Tal Shiar. They make a point that the Tal Shiar are essentially the equivalent of the normal police and that these guys are beyond super secret, have existed for thousands of years, have some secret that would break a person's mind, and also hate synthetic life forms with a burning passion.

One theory I heard (with no real evidence, not that the show requires any) is that this super secret police force may have created the Borg. Eh. Either way, it feels dumb to me.

[abydos]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the show had to be called Mass Effect: Picard (but with worse writing).

[soupytwist]

I suspect the writing of the Federation in Picard is meant to mirror modern politics.  There has been a push to move us to a more to a more tolerant, liberal society though gender equality, LBGTQ, racial and climate issues etc.....but clearly we aren't ready for this yet as we've seen the counter to this with rise of rightwing politics throughout the world.
Either that or those parasites that infiltrated high ranking Starfleet members in the season one episode 'Conspiracy' are finally back 

[hefdaddy42]

I got up early this morning to watch the new episode of Picard before work.

It wasn't showing yet for me.  Anyone else have that problem?

[El Barto]

I watched the first episode last night. They very clearly set it in 2020 America, only with newer toys and more diverse architecture. I was actually surprised by how accurate it was in that regard, and fairly disappointed. Showing the corruption of paradise might have been interesting, but they started after the whole thing had turned into a modern shit-show.

And will there be some explanation for how Data painted a daughter he presumably never knew he would have?

I liked the idea of Dahj Bourne. Too bad they killed her. And killed her with exploding puke, no less.

[Adami]

I watched the first episode last night. They very clearly set it in 2020 America, only with newer toys and more diverse architecture. I was actually surprised by how accurate it was in that regard, and fairly disappointed. Showing the corruption of paradise might have been interesting, but they started after the whole thing had turned into a modern shit-show.

And will there be some explanation for how Data painted a daughter he presumably never knew he would have?

I liked the idea of Dahj Bourne. Too bad they killed her. And killed her with exploding puke, no less.

I don't think it's that Data painted his future daughter as much as whoever built Dahj modeled her after the painting because of she was likely build from Data. I think.

And I thought Dahj was killed by the exploding gun. Which made the exploding puke a bit dumb and confusing.

[hefdaddy42]

The puke isn't exploding, it was more acidic, and it seems activated by crunching a dental implant, like the old spies with cyanide trick.

She just got a double dose - exploding gun AND acidic spit/puke.

[Adami]

She just got a double dose - exploding gun AND acidic spit/puke.

I have no idea why, but reading this (which is 100% accurate) in a Star Trek thread just makes me laugh.

[hefdaddy42]

She just got a double dose - exploding gun AND acidic spit/puke.

I have no idea why, but reading this (which is 100% accurate) in a Star Trek thread just makes me laugh.

I laughed typing it, as well.

[soupytwist]

Fifth episode was the best and fun so far (dodgy accent and eye patch aside).  It's got a more standalone feel to it - let's call it the Heist episode.  Be interested to see what those not fully engaged in the show make of this one.

[Adami]

Fifth episode was the best and fun so far (dodgy accent and eye patch aside).  It's got a more standalone feel to it - let's call it the Heist episode.  Be interested to see what those not fully engaged in the show make of this one.

I'll hopefully watch it tonight!

[abydos]

Be interested to see what those not fully engaged in the show make of this one.

It was terrible.

[soupytwist]

This is how I'd rank the series of Star Trek. 

King Tier.
1. DS9 (All the best TNG writers jumped on to this (that's also why TNG season 7 wasn't as good) and it shows - by far the most complex show)
2. ToS. (Season 3 is spotty to say the least, but it was so far ahead of it's time....)

Prince Tier. (It's to early to rate Picard, but it's in this tier after 5 episodes).
3. TNG (Seasons 3 - 6 are King tier, but seasons 1 & 2 are Jester).
4. Discovery. (Certainly has issues, the biggest being a bland main character - but it's progressively got better)

Jester Tier.
5/6 Enterprise/Voyager (Pretty hard to separate, both are mostly dull with a lot of forgettable characters)
7. Animated (Pretty much unwatchable now)

[Adami]

Be interested to see what those not fully engaged in the show make of this one.

It was terrible.

Yea. It was pretty bad. This might have been the most actively insulting episode to everything Star Trek used to be.

[soupytwist]

I thought that'd be your response 

Just outta curiosity did you watch ToS or TNG (and spin offs) first?  - Having personally grew up on the repeats of ToS my reaction to TNG when it was first broadcast is similar to yours with Picard - this is not Star Trek!

[Adami]

I grew up on TNG. Saw TOS after.

[El Barto]

I thought that'd be your response 

Just outta curiosity did you watch ToS or TNG (and spin offs) first?  - Having personally grew up on the repeats of ToS my reaction to TNG when it was first broadcast is similar to yours with Picard - this is not Star Trek!

I also grew up on TOS, and I didn't think TNG wasn't Star Trek. I thought it was shit, but it was very much still the same concepts and the same universe.


I watched 2-4 of PIC last night, and it's The Magnificent 7. It's set up just like an 8 hour long movie, with the first half assembling the team, and presumably the second half will show what they do. That seems like an excellent stopping place, so I'll probably blow it off until it's finished, and then see how much further I can watch it without rage-quitting. The stuff revolving around Picard isn't all that bad. It's certainly not ST, but at least he's a likeable character. The stuff on the Borg ship is just dreadful, though, and the Romulan ninja nuns might be the most ridiculous idea to come out of a "ST" series.

It's amazing how little has changed over the next 350 years. The slang is the same. People still where jeans and wayfarers. They behave the same. The only difference is that they have ray guns and can fight super fast. Government is still corrupt. Conspiracies still abound. The media is still made of bottom feeders. For 4 series Star Trek portrayed humanity in a better light. Now suddenly we're just as awful. TNG's era seemed like a nice enough place to live. Picard's Earth looks absolutely dreadful. Seriously, what's the point of going on if things never get better? Fuck, even Abrams's universe seemed like a marginal improvement, despite rogue military plots.