Author Topic: Star Trek: Thread Space 9  (Read 276903 times)

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2065 on: February 04, 2020, 10:57:37 AM »
The difference is that TNG was episodic television and PIC is serialized.

I was just coming in here to comment on this.  Adami... TNG certainly did have plot twists when looked at over the course of the interconnected shows (Commander Sela; Return of Lor; Borg individualism), so I don't think that's a fair criticism to say plot twists (for no reason) are bad writing.  And who's to say - AFTER TWO EPISODES - that there is no reason?  We've got 8 episodes to reveal/understand the reason (although, I really don't know what the twists are that you reference). I also don't see that things are ONLY happening to make the plot move - but regardless, isn't that was a serialized show has to do ... follow a progression of events?  Not sure what motivations are "dumb dumb dumb".  Do we even know the real motivations of the antagonists yet?  Seems you have a beef with the show (which is fine), but the way your articulating it doesn't seem to be.... logical.  :biggrin:

Television has evolved since the 80s.  We don't get A-Team / Knight Rider / Simon & Simon as the style of our leading dramas anymore.  To expect Star Trek to be in the vein of TNG or DS9 ... well, that's what gave us Voyager and Enterprise - which by-and-large the lesser enjoyed/liked series for the hardcore ST fan-base.  To me it seems the producers changed gears here - again, no longer about exploring strange new worlds yada yada ... all wrapped up neatly in 42 minutes.  So what if they changed the style?  I don't see how that means it's 'bad writing'.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2066 on: February 04, 2020, 11:21:33 AM »
If you guys really want, I can go back and re-watch the episode to give you every example of bad writing. I get that I'm doing a poor job expressing it.

That said.....why? I mean, I don't need you guys to think it's bad writing. I am happy you're all enjoying it. In fact, if you think the writing is great, I'd hate to challenge that. And I don't want you guys trying to prove why the writing is good or why, if it's bad, that's okay because other things have been bad too.

Up to you. My complaints about the writing, however, can be (maybe poorly) summarized as such...

1) The characters are largely speaking to the audience and not each other. In that, this isn't what they would say to one another, it's just a lazy way of hand feeding the audience info.
2) Many of the decisions are simply to be cool and not be logical. The Romulan death troops or whatever show up in that chick's apartment, kill the dude with a knife and have a cool fight. We all think it's cool and never stop to wonder why the hell they threw a knife at a dude when they have blasters. Who the hell is throwing knives for anything other than dramatic effect? There's a lot more of those, but that's just the one I immediately thought of.
3) It's all plot and very little character. The only character that is shown to be an actual character is Picard, and that's only cause Patrick Stewart is the god damn man, and the current writers are simply importing 30 years of established character into him. Shows that are all plot are, to me and maybe me alone, much less interesting and much more forgettable. We like the characters thus far because they found good actors, but the story rarely has anything to do with character moments and is almost 100% plot driven, which isn't very interesting to me and is the sign of lazier writing, since really, any of us can do a fine job writing plot twists.

I was thinking about something else, and again this is NOT to make anyone think any less of the show, so no need to try to destroy the argument or prove it wrong. But looking at various documentaries about Star Trek or fans or what have you, there's a recurring trend of inspiration. We have doctors, engineers, naval officers, astronauts, technicians, etc, that became those things BECAUSE different incarnations of Star Trek inspired them. It was inspirational. It was never JUST entertainment. It gave a lot of people hope for a better future and sparked a fire to bring that future about, even if in some small way.

But these new shows? The JJ Verse and after? It's entertainment and entertainment only. I doubt you'll see too many people being inspired to change their lives or have life altering realizations about themselves, the world, and humanity from Star Trek 2009, or Into Darkness, or Discovery. They're all trying to be a blend of Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica. The problem is, Star Trek had a distinct voice which it doesn't have so much anymore. I love Battlestar and I like Star Wars. I don't need Star Trek to be like those things, I already have those things.

Again, this is just my perspective. Not trying to change anyone else' perspective. The show isn't bad or anything, I just think the writing is lazy and subpar and could be so much better given how fantastic of a cast they have. I'll watch it til the end and hope it gets better and continue to enjoy Patrick Stewart if nothing else.

And just to reiterate one last time, I do not hold previous versions of Star Trek as perfect or anything near it, so pointing out that other shows had bad episodes has absolutely no impact on what I'm trying to say at all.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 11:37:13 AM by Adami »
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2067 on: February 04, 2020, 11:51:17 AM »
That was very well put, and I can better understand and appreciate this point of view, even if I don't see it that way.  It certainly ain't your father's Star Trek.

And I'm not poking holes at your stance, or trying to prove you wrong... I'm simply responding with my POV.

Personally, the only instances of 'talking to the audience' was the 20/20-style interview and the debrief about how Dahj was created - both necessary for fast-forwarding thru 2 critical past events that are the basis of the show. The knives... why not?  They're like Romulan Ninja's.  Silent attack, no chance of peripheral damage to the apartment.  I wasn't stuffed about this.  Characters - I'm digging the Romulan helpers (damnit... their run is over now?).  Ironically, I liked Dahj, but I'm not too interested in Soji.  Still more to characters to come.

It's only 2 episodes in... I'm not going to get bent out of shape over the few warts/flaws.
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
I fear for the day when something happens on the right that is SO nuts that even Stadler says "That's crazy".
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2068 on: February 04, 2020, 12:13:53 PM »
NO U



But yes, I do like the Romulan staff, but mostly cause the actors are so cool.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2069 on: February 04, 2020, 12:17:56 PM »

1) The characters are largely speaking to the audience and not each other. In that, this isn't what they would say to one another, it's just a lazy way of hand feeding the audience info.
To be fair, that's a recurring theme with series premiers. That's actually why I liked VOY's more than DS9's. The latter was too heavy-handed with its expository dialogue.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2070 on: February 04, 2020, 12:23:41 PM »

1) The characters are largely speaking to the audience and not each other. In that, this isn't what they would say to one another, it's just a lazy way of hand feeding the audience info.
To be fair, that's a recurring theme with series premiers. That's actually why I liked VOY's more than DS9's. The latter was too heavy-handed with its expository dialogue.

Indeed, but this was the 2nd of 10 episodes. Some expository dialogue is fine and necessary, I get that. But there were whole swaths of dialogue on the Romulan Borg ship that served NO purpose other than to tell the audience what they should have been showing us instead. Key rule of writing, show don't tell.

Also, this is just coming back to me, and it didn't bother me THAT much but the whole Mars scene was way over the top. I remember talking to my mom about it and being like "that isn't how racism works!" Even racist people don't sit around all day every day talking about racist stuff. They also talk about normal things. On Mars it was like 95% racist comments toward the robots to really let us know that things were bad. This wasn't day 1, this was years of working together. It just felt unnatural and ham fisted. Again, I get the need, but it really could've been done with more subtlety than "HEY EVERYONE WE RACIST AGAINST ROBOTS!"
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2071 on: February 05, 2020, 01:14:20 AM »

Also, this is just coming back to me, and it didn't bother me THAT much but the whole Mars scene was way over the top. I remember talking to my mom about it and being like "that isn't how racism works!" Even racist people don't sit around all day every day talking about racist stuff. They also talk about normal things. On Mars it was like 95% racist comments toward the robots to really let us know that things were bad. This wasn't day 1, this was years of working together. It just felt unnatural and ham fisted. Again, I get the need, but it really could've been done with more subtlety than "HEY EVERYONE WE RACIST AGAINST ROBOTS!"

I re watched this scene this morning.  To be honest there was very little racists comments, one friendly crew member even tries to share a joke with the Bot - and when the Bot goes rogue the crew were sitting down eating just talking about how awful the food was.   One crew member says the Bot creeps her out (but my Mum gets creeped out by Alexa!) - but the whole scene plays out in less than 3 minutes - so not what I'd class as 95% racist comments, certainly not Pulaski's on Data levels anyway :)

As for the showing not telling, talking directly to the audience...Star Trek always did this, the Stardate Logs voice over entries are purely for telling audience what's going on in the story and any plot advancements they didn't show.

"Captain's Log Stardate 43125.8 : Plot, plot, plot, plot"
"Captain's Log supplemental : Exposition"



« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 01:56:38 AM by soupytwist »

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2072 on: February 05, 2020, 05:39:55 AM »
I get it dude. You don’t agree with me.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2073 on: February 05, 2020, 06:25:30 AM »
I get it dude. You don’t agree with me.

Well I tried.  But we seem to be watching different shows!

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2074 on: February 05, 2020, 07:00:31 AM »
I get it dude. You don’t agree with me.

Well I tried.  But we seem to be watching different shows!

Nope. I just don't see the writing the way you do, and I don't care that other Star Treks also did that stuff in different ways. That's all.

Keep enjoying the show. I hope I will too.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2075 on: February 06, 2020, 10:35:54 PM »
Another good episode, I especially am intrigued by Raffi, hope they develop that character and her strained relationship with Picard intact. I expect things to move into overdrive on the overall story arc now that there actually in space.


Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2076 on: February 07, 2020, 04:41:14 AM »
Another good episode, I especially am intrigued by Raffi, hope they develop that character and her strained relationship with Picard intact. I expect things to move into overdrive on the overall story arc now that there actually in space.

Yeah... but "JL"!?!?!  That was bad.  Also, Stewart's de-aging was not done very effectively.  Otherwise, things are moving forward now.

I often notice the disconnect about how technology moves forward so much in 20 years in current time, but (naturally) isn't representative in the tech of the future.  For instance, control panels.  In TOS, there are lights and knobs and dials and handles.  In TNG, everything is touch screen.  Now, we're seeing most things are 3D holograms - Raffi's "iPad", how Rios' ship controls etc...  No way to avoid it, it's just a nit I always notice.
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
I fear for the day when something happens on the right that is SO nuts that even Stadler says "That's crazy".
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2077 on: February 07, 2020, 06:35:39 AM »
As a person who identifies with initials for a first name, I fully embraced JL.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2078 on: February 07, 2020, 06:44:47 AM »
As a person who identifies with initials for a first name, I fully embraced JL.

Ok, Ron.  :lol
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
I fear for the day when something happens on the right that is SO nuts that even Stadler says "That's crazy".
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2079 on: February 07, 2020, 06:46:15 AM »
*insert Picard middle finger gif here*

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2080 on: February 07, 2020, 09:47:36 AM »
Random Star Trek-related thing:  My wife has been fighting a condition which grants her a Handicapped placard to hang from the rear-view mirror.  Sometimes we'll need to grab it out of her car because we're taking mine, or vice versa, so I tell her I'm going to get Jean-Luc.  That's what I call it.  The first time I said that, I had to explain that it's the Jean-Luc Placard.  Got smacked on the shoulder for that one.  True story.

Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2081 on: February 07, 2020, 11:25:29 AM »
There's nothing that I like about the show and how they went with it. I'm gonna watch it just to know how bad they messed up what I have been waiting for for 20 years now.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2082 on: February 07, 2020, 12:06:08 PM »
Quote from: jingle.boy link=topic=48443.msg2627070#msg2627070 date=1581075674Also, Stewart's de-aging was not done very effectively.
[/quote
Ah, so they made him older to start with. When I watched a clip of the first episode I couldn't believe how old PS seemed.
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2083 on: February 07, 2020, 05:14:34 PM »
Another good episode, I especially am intrigued by Raffi, hope they develop that character and her strained relationship with Picard intact. I expect things to move into overdrive on the overall story arc now that there actually in space.

Yeah... but "JL"!?!?!  That was bad.  Also, Stewart's de-aging was not done very effectively.  Otherwise, things are moving forward now.

I often notice the disconnect about how technology moves forward so much in 20 years in current time, but (naturally) isn't representative in the tech of the future.  For instance, control panels.  In TOS, there are lights and knobs and dials and handles.  In TNG, everything is touch screen.  Now, we're seeing most things are 3D holograms - Raffi's "iPad", how Rios' ship controls etc...  No way to avoid it, it's just a nit I always notice.

I've been really enjoying the series so far but her constantly saying JL is driving me nuts for some reason.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2084 on: February 07, 2020, 06:24:30 PM »
Yea. More poor writing.

JL.

Still love the Romulan staff. Sucks they’re gone for a while.

Meh overall.

Glad so many others are loving it so much. Wish I could as well.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2085 on: February 09, 2020, 05:36:13 AM »
Ending with an 'Engage' to me suggests we are moving onto the adventure now, after 3 episodes setting up the world building, story setting and characters introductions.   Looking forwards to seeing where they go with this!

Offline YtseJam

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2086 on: February 10, 2020, 02:16:14 PM »
Not to change the subject but I started watching deep six nine per your recommendations. If Odo can change his appearance, why does he make himself look like an ugly woman wearing a mask before bed? Shouldn't he shapeshift into Brad Pit?

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2087 on: February 10, 2020, 02:22:24 PM »
Not to change the subject but I started watching deep six nine per your recommendations. If Odo can change his appearance, why does he make himself look like an ugly woman wearing a mask before bed? Shouldn't he shapeshift into Brad Pit?

Haha. I believe he's said on a few occasions that human (or maybe other species in general) are very difficult to get the fine details and that how he looks is the closest he can get.


Spoilers? Maybe? But you'll see in some occasions that take place in the far future, he can get a bit closer to normal looking.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2088 on: February 10, 2020, 02:27:29 PM »
Not to change the subject but I started watching deep six nine per your recommendations. If Odo can change his appearance, why does he make himself look like an ugly woman wearing a mask before bed? Shouldn't he shapeshift into Brad Pit?
Originally he said he just sucked a mimicking human appearances. There's an interesting comment in another 4 or 5 seasons where he's flying around. A Star Fleet Admiral tells him he made a pretty convincing hawk, and he replied "I doubt the other hawks would agree with you." Passable is one thing. Convincing is another.

In any case, if you're really going to dig down into it there are far more problems. All of the other changelings look just like him. Even ones that have never seen him before. Stands to reason that's just the default appearance they take when behaving as solids. Also, where does his combadge go when he turns into a mouse? Or blends into a wall?
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2089 on: February 10, 2020, 02:32:06 PM »
Yea, Barto has good points. I didn't remember the hawk line, it's a good one.

There's way more problems with the com badge in general than where Odo's go. It's kind of a "does what is needed when needed" thing.
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Offline FreezingPoint

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2090 on: February 10, 2020, 03:22:31 PM »
There are times when they slap the com badge, talk and then never close the channel or say "out" which always made me chuckle since whoever's on the other end would hear the rest of the conversation. Small nits like that always make me laugh a little.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2091 on: February 10, 2020, 03:31:48 PM »
There are times when they slap the com badge, talk and then never close the channel or say "out" which always made me chuckle since whoever's on the other end would hear the rest of the conversation. Small nits like that always make me laugh a little.

Or that it always who to connect to even before they say the name.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2092 on: February 13, 2020, 07:38:49 AM »
Picard episode 4: at this point, I can't tell if Adami will like this one or not.

But I certainly did.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2093 on: February 13, 2020, 07:54:11 AM »
Picard episode 4: at this point, I can't tell if Adami will like this one or not.

But I certainly did.

I’m honestly trying to be as open minded as I can. I’ll watch it tonight and let you know!
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Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2094 on: February 13, 2020, 09:00:36 AM »
Cursing, beheadings, and likely incest. Welcome to Star Trek 2020.

Offline YtseJam

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2095 on: February 13, 2020, 03:35:20 PM »
I plan to watch it tonight as well and am looking forward to it.

 As far as deep69 goes, you guys were right it is good... Well it gets good, but unfortunately takes way too long to get good. And now that it gets good, it's about to end. I'm at the end of season 7 although I skipped a bunch of episodes due to passing out or distractions so will have to go back. Another observation, it seems like the theme song was good at first and then morphed into some technoboogie version. Is it just my imagination?

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2096 on: February 13, 2020, 05:45:16 PM »
Picard episode 4: at this point, I can't tell if Adami will like this one or not.

But I certainly did.

It was definitely significantly less dumb than the others but Still some really dumb moments.


A big improvement.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2097 on: February 13, 2020, 09:54:37 PM »
Fuck, was so busy this week that I totally forgot to watch this morning, and now I'm too pooped to watch now. I'm such a hack fan...

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2098 on: February 14, 2020, 08:26:52 AM »
Also, I'm starting to think that the writers don't really get who Picard is for the most part. Some definite exceptions, but there's a number of aspects about the character that seem pretty off.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #2099 on: February 14, 2020, 10:15:46 AM »
Also, I'm starting to think that the writers don't really get who Picard is for the most part. Some definite exceptions, but there's a number of aspects about the character that seem pretty off.
More so than the movies where he kept flipping out and turning into John McClain?
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