Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[El Barto]

That's a good point, something I haven't really thought about before. Then again, I rarely watch The Emissary and don't remember that episode that well to be honest.

The only explanation that I can come up with is that because the prophets don't exist in linear time, creating The Sisko so he comes back, etc. doesn't need to go in an A -> B -> C fashion. Whatever version of time, if any, the prophets subscribe to, perhaps it makes sense to them.

Or maybe, their ignorance was feigned on purpose in order to slowly begin Sisko's journey and relationship with them. If they had said from the start, "Hey, Sisko, you're here! Awesome. By the way, just so you know, you had a different mom that you didn't know about, and we made YOU happen. Oh, and we made you an extremely important religious symbol and will go through some tough times the next seven years and then will spend time with us indefinitely after that", he probably would left to go work Surplus Depot Z15 on Qualor II.

I considered the linear time bit, but that just means that the prophets see all things at once. They wouldn't need to "learn" about corporeal life because Sisko's entire life was already known to them.

The second theory makes more sense, and I'd considered that one, as well. Though I hadn't considered your reasoning for why they'd do it. That's pretty reasonable. But weren't they just as ignorant with Quark?

I have a wild and pretty crazy theory.


What if....and follow me here.....the writers just didn't have a clue how the prophets were going to be used when they wrote that first episode and it's simply an inconsistency?

Sorry, I'll put the tinfoil hat down now.

Obviously this is the case. The prophets almost never showed up until the end of the story, and at that point the writers just blew off the episodes they'd already appeared in. I sometimes like to point these things out because when Spock calls himself a Vulcanian, or Kirk mixes up shields and deflectors people lose their fucking minds. The same inconsistencies in the "good series" are generally overlooked.

[Progmetty]

Little off-topic: Just saw the movie Border Incident, Ricardo Montalbán was great in it. Also saw a movie called Mystery Street where he was also great. I take back what I said earlier in the thread about not liking his acting, I still don't like what he did on Star Trek or possibly how it was written for him.

[Orbert]

When Ricardo was in the TOS episode, his character was over the top, because that's how you did it in the 60's.  When Khan was revisited in '82, I loved how he was the same guy 15 years older, same as everyone else.  Ricardo Montalbán was awesome.

[abydos]

STD started out well with this season but as soon as they went into the big story it turned to crap again, imo. Someone needs to tell these writers about pacing and character development.

[El Barto]

When Ricardo was in the TOS episode, his character was over the top, because that's how you did it in the 60's.  When Khan was revisited in '82, I loved how he was the same guy 15 years older, same as everyone else.  Ricardo Montalbán was awesome.

I liked how he was contemplating and ambitious in the first one, and just hate filled and vengeful in the second. He played the two characters well, I thought. My problem with Space Seed was that the girl was so dumb. It took, what, 3 meetings for her to become treasonous? That's a character flaw I'd have picked up on just interviewing somebody for a cashier job.

[Orbert]

I think the idea was that Khan had so much charisma and just plain sex appeal that she was smitten and ready to jump on him anyway.  Certainly not the type of person you'd want working for you, but I took it as more a statement of Khan and his effect on people than a reflection on her.

Also, 60's + hot = dumb.  She was pretty, therefore no one was surprised when she decided to go with him.

The exchange which brought it about is one of my favorite TOS moments.  Ricardo brought real acting chops.  He wants her, she's waffling and says something annoying and Khan says "Then go!" and in about 1/100 of a second you see on his face "Wait... shit... must bang..." and he quickly adds "...or stay.  But do it because it is what you want to do."  Ah, nice save.  Turn it around, give her the option, but make her commit to it.  If it's her choice, his conscience is clear.  She says she wants to stay, so Khan pushes even more, acts annoyed and says "You must now ask permission to stay."  And it works.  She begs him to let her stay.  His is superior.

[El Barto]

A little more manipulation and corruption would have been nice, though. I agree with your take, but simply "come be my willing thrall" shouldn't be quite enough.

[Orbert]

Yeah, but again, 60's drama.  Didn't she have some kind of obscure title, like Historical Anthropologist or something?  She'd studied guys like this, and here was a living breathing specimen, also damned hot, and she was smitten.  It happens.  It shouldn't, but it does.

[Progmetty]

If you watch it thinking she has an acute nymphomania then it all makes sense, that's the only way I got through that episode.
Orbert I didn't like his Khan, neither in Space Seed or Wrath of Khan, I know it's blasphemous opinion among trekkies. I just found it 1- too inconsistent between the two appearances, not just character wise, like why the hell is his skin so much lighter in Wrath of Khan? 2- Too unsympathetic and straightforward villainous, like old Adam West's Batman kinda villains.
After watching Montalbán in these Noir movies I've come to realize that it was just badly written IMO. It's not his fault.

[El Barto]

If you watch it thinking she has an acute nymphomania then it all makes sense, that's the only way I got through that episode.
Orbert I didn't like his Khan, neither in Space Seed or Wrath of Khan, I know it's blasphemous opinion among trekkies. I just found it 1- too inconsistent between the two appearances, not just character wise, like why the hell is his skin so much lighter in Wrath of Khan? 2- Too unsympathetic and straightforward villainous, like old Adam West's Batman kinda villains.
After watching Montalbán in these Noir movies I've come to realize that it was just badly written IMO. It's not his fault.

I think I mentioned earlier that I liked the contrast between his two appearances, and this is where it really lies. In Space Seed he was simply ambitious. He wanted to go out and do his own thing and the Enterprise would give him that opportunity. When it didn't pan out he was actually happy with Kirk's "sentence" that he be marooned on a planet he could conquer. Sound motivations, I think. Not unlike any of the conquerors he was compared to. Napoleon in particular. When he came back he was very pissed off at how it worked out. I find this also reasonable. He might have been a little too pissed off at Kirk personally, I'm not sure what he really expected, but such is story telling. I never thought of Ahab as being simply villainous, even if I thought him misguided.

[ProfessorPeart]

Oh man, just saw the trailer for the DS9 documentary. I am a day 1 backer of that and to see some of that in HD is just mind-blowing. It would be a dream if they remastered that whole thing but I doubt it will ever happen. I'm just glad that so many of us helped catapult this doc into something way more than they had intended since we threw so much money at it. I can't wait for this.

https://youtu.be/D4LPDX6uqSM

[ReaperKK]

That’s awesome! I’m going to watch it as long as it’s close to me. Going to go check now.

[El Barto]

Oh man, just saw the trailer for the DS9 documentary. I am a day 1 backer of that and to see some of that in HD is just mind-blowing. It would be a dream if they remastered that whole thing but I doubt it will ever happen. I'm just glad that so many of us helped catapult this doc into something way more than they had intended since we threw so much money at it. I can't wait for this.

https://youtu.be/D4LPDX6uqSM

So Ezri's looking pretty good nowadays.

I'm sure I'll check this out at some point, I'm as interested as everybody else about all of this, but I have a feeling it won't be my kind of thing. Modern documentaries just don't work for me. And I honestly had no idea this was even a thing.

[ReaperKK]

I bought my ticket earlier today so I'll let you guys know how it is.

[ProfessorPeart]

I bought my ticket earlier today so I'll let you guys know how it is.

Since I'm a backer I have a Blu-ray coming but I think I am going to try and get out to the theater to see this. It's showing about 30 minutes from me.

[SoundscapeMN]

yep, May 13th in Theaters.

my favorite show of all-time. Very excited!

[abydos]

So... what do you guys think? I for one was utterly bored by the season finale. I didn't care what happened to anyone really. And the way they tied it to the other show was hilariously lazy.

[gmillerdrake]

So... what do you guys think? I for one was utterly bored by the season finale. I didn't care what happened to anyone really. And the way they tied it to the other show was hilariously lazy.

In general I liked the season but i do agree that the way they explained away Discovery and all it's crew.....and then tied into (I guess??) cannon....did seem pretty lazy.

[El Barto]

So if I understand y'alls cryptic posts they created a show based around a ship that had nothing whatsoever to do with Star Trek and made a season out of it. Then they brought the Enterprise, Pike, and Spock alongside it for a season. Then they nuked it away from history a la Armin Tamzarian. Now season 3 will just be the Enterprise and people that actually fit into canon.

I seriously doubt I'd be into it, but if season 3 is simply Pike, Spock, and the Enterprise I'd probably be willing to check it out.

[El Barto]

Unrelated to unrelated ST, but I watched The Enemy Within over the weekend, and never noticed that Spock says something seriously creepy to yeoman Rand at the end of the episode. I suspect it just seems a lot more obvious nowadays in the Me Too era, but I have to think that even in 1969 that would have earned a visit from the Federation HP department. In the final two minutes Kirk and Rand are agreeing to never speak of the attempted rape ever again. Afterward Spock tells the just barely not raped Janice Rand something to the effect of "the other captain had some, eh, 'interesting' qualities, don't you think?", stopping just sort of batting those pointy eyebrows and nudging her with his elbow. Never noticed it before, but he was clearly teller her "yeah, you know you wanted it." 

[gmillerdrake]

So if I understand y'alls cryptic posts they created a show based around a ship that had nothing whatsoever to do with Star Trek and made a season out of it. Then they brought the Enterprise, Pike, and Spock alongside it for a season. Then they nuked it away from history a la Armin Tamzarian. Now season 3 will just be the Enterprise and people that actually fit into canon.

I seriously doubt I'd be into it, but if season 3 is simply Pike, Spock, and the Enterprise I'd probably be willing to check it out.

Pretty much EB. But, the kicker is.....Anson Mount as of right now is not coming back as Cpt. Pike on the Discovery series. There is some rumblings of him heading up another spin off of him Captaining the Enterprise with Spock and Co. due to a lot of fan love he's been getting....but right now he's not committed to returning to Discovery.

I have no idea what they'd do for a third season of Discovery. They left the potential to still follow Discovery's crew....but....at this point that'd seem silly I think.

[soupytwist]

I'm pretty sure the 3rd Season of Discovery will be following the Discovery crew.  I think the reason they didn't show what happened to the ship after it went into the future is because there is a new showrunner coming in, so they've have a completely blank canvas to start with.

[YtseJam]

So maybe I'd need to re-watch the entire season again but I had trouble following what the hell I was even watching half the time. It's annoying to have to concentrate when trying to relax and watch a stupid TV show. The camera cutting left and right quickly with over cluttered scenes, talking as fast as they can and the constant jumping around, trying to remember what happened last week, etc. I started out really enjoying the show but am annoyed by it at this point. Not sure I even want to watch it again as I didn't feel the story was very compelling. I need the reader's digest version of wtf I just watched 

[Samsara]

I was at the 30th anniversary re-screening of Batman (1989) over the weekend, and saw a trailer for "What We've Left Behind," the documentary on DS9. It is being screened one night only, a week from today (May 13) at 7 p.m. Sucks. I wanted to go, but I have a previous commitment. Anyone know if they plan on releasing it for purchase at some point? I'm not dialed into Star Trek communities any longer, so I have no idea. All I see is that it is a documentary, and was first out late last year.

[The Walrus]

Hey folks, sorry to hijack the thread but I'm looking for suggestions on a Star Trek series to watch. I've only ever seen a few episodes of the original Star Trek with Shatner but it's so low budget, corny, and (honestly) boring that I can't stand it. But I hear the later series, like TNG, are pretty interesting both from a thematic and visual standpoint. I like the idea of watching a scifi series that explores heady/philosophical concepts, but has the fantasy elements and compelling visual elements. Is TNG a good starting point or do I have to watch all the series in order to understand them?

I went with a friend to the 2009 Star Trek film but didn't really understand it beyond there being a Spock and redshirts and some planet destroying red matter. Visually it looked cool...

[Adami]

Hey folks, sorry to hijack the thread but I'm looking for suggestions on a Star Trek series to watch. I've only ever seen a few episodes of the original Star Trek with Shatner but it's so low budget, corny, and (honestly) boring that I can't stand it. But I hear the later series, like TNG, are pretty interesting both from a thematic and visual standpoint. I like the idea of watching a scifi series that explores heady/philosophical concepts, but has the fantasy elements and compelling visual elements. Is TNG a good starting point or do I have to watch all the series in order to understand them?

I went with a friend to the 2009 Star Trek film but didn't really understand it beyond there being a Spock and redshirts and some planet destroying red matter. Visually it looked cool...

I love TNG, but the first few seasons are pretty cheesy with low budget at times (though not nearly as low as the original series). It gets much better, despite what El Barto says, but it's rough for a bit.

DS9 is similar. First season is a bit rough (minus my favorite episode of the whole show) but then REALLY picks up. You'll have to sit through some crap, but that's par for course.

[The Walrus]

Which of those would you recommend first for someone who knows next to nothing about Star Trek and that whole universe? Do they connect at all? I think those are the two series I've thought of most.

[Adami]

Which of those would you recommend first for someone who knows next to nothing about Star Trek and that whole universe? Do they connect at all? I think those are the two series I've thought of most.

Man that's tough. They interconnect...a little...but honestly way less than they could have. The first episode of DS9 has some TNG stuff in there, but you're not really totally in the dark without knowing it.

I suggest TNG if you have patience and can tolerate some BS episodes with low budget or bad dialogue, cause it really improves as it goes before it kind of loses its footing in the final season.

[The Walrus]

TNG it is! Thanks Adami. Might start it tonight.

[El Barto]

I never said it didn't get better as it went on. AFAIK I've only suggested that season 7 sucked ass, and the characters weren't very interesting. My reputation for hating the thing is hugely overstated.

Kattelox: There's something like 165 episodes of TNG. A handful of them are 9s and 10s. A similar number are 1s and 2. Most are in the middle and mostly come down to your particular tastes and interests. The answer to your question is that the subsequent series, DS9 and VOY both build on a variety of stories and concepts from TNG. You'd be best served by starting at the beginning. You just shouldn't base any objections to a handful of episodes since they're so all over the place. I'd say that about TOS, as well. Out of curiosity, which episodes did you watch?

[The Walrus]

Kattelox: There's something like 165 episodes of TNG. A handful of them are 9s and 10s. A similar number are 1s and 2. Most are in the middle and mostly come down to your particular tastes and interests. The answer to your question is that the subsequent series, DS9 and VOY both build on a variety of stories and concepts from TNG. You'd be best served by starting at the beginning. You just shouldn't base any objections to a handful of episodes since they're so all over the place. I'd say that about TOS, as well. Out of curiosity, which episodes did you watch?

I've seen 3 or 4 episodes of the original, I think, and honestly the only thing I remember is that in one, I think the ship gets grabbed by a giant green alien who is a god or something - does that ring a bell? I think it was one of the first episodes but I could be wrong. (caught them on late night, local TV via antenna) The only other stuff I remember is the stuff that made me bored - the old and corny effects and uninteresting dialogue, which is what I was hoping the later series avoided. So I think I'd have a hard time watching the original series if I have to. I like old TV like Gilligan's Island but old scifi with its technological limitations doesn't interest me - I need the quality visuals to accompany the epic scope. (I use that term loosely since TNG was so long ago too but still much later than the original)

EDIT: Seems like TNG -> Deep Space 9 -> Voyager is the suggested path then? Since TNG was first. Neato.

[El Barto]

Kattelox: There's something like 165 episodes of TNG. A handful of them are 9s and 10s. A similar number are 1s and 2. Most are in the middle and mostly come down to your particular tastes and interests. The answer to your question is that the subsequent series, DS9 and VOY both build on a variety of stories and concepts from TNG. You'd be best served by starting at the beginning. You just shouldn't base any objections to a handful of episodes since they're so all over the place. I'd say that about TOS, as well. Out of curiosity, which episodes did you watch?

I've seen 3 or 4 episodes of the original, I think, and honestly the only thing I remember is that in one, I think the ship gets grabbed by a giant green alien who is a god or something - does that ring a bell? I think it was one of the first episodes but I could be wrong. (caught them on late night, local TV via antenna) The only other stuff I remember is the stuff that made me bored - the old and corny effects and uninteresting dialogue, which is what I was hoping the later series avoided. So I think I'd have a hard time watching the original series if I have to. I like old TV like Gilligan's Island but old scifi with its technological limitations doesn't interest me - I need the quality visuals to accompany the epic scope. (I use that term loosely since TNG was so long ago too but still much later than the original)

EDIT: Seems like TNG -> Deep Space 9 -> Voyager is the suggested path then? Since TNG was first. Neato.

There's overlap between the three, so that's really the only way to do it. DS9 started in TNG's 5th (of 7) seasons. VOY did the same, starting in DS9's 5th season.

TNG isn't bad by any means. It has plenty of really bad episodes, and if you start from the beginning you'll see a lot of them. Also the characters are all Roddenberry's ideal humans, so they're highly uninteresting. At the same time they do plenty of wonderful episodes regarding ethical and sci-fi matters, which as always been one of ST's strong suits. Occasionally a nice bit of action, as well. I think you might be in for a beating watching 7 seasons worth, but for all that it opens up it's worth it.

[Adami]

I have tried a few times to do a MAJOR Star Trek rewatch. Which would be Enterprise -> TOS -> TNG -> DS9 -> Voyager with all of the movies in their respective times as well.

Problem is, I can never make it all the way through TOS. I don't skip episodes, and eventually somewhere in the 2nd season or maybe the beginning of the 3rd, it becomes a chore to watch so I quit. Damn.

I'll try again, but I am not wondering if I am going to need to include freakin Discovery, which I have very little interest in.

[El Barto]

I have tried a few times to do a MAJOR Star Trek rewatch. Which would be Enterprise -> TOS -> TNG -> DS9 -> Voyager with all of the movies in their respective times as well.

Problem is, I can never make it all the way through TOS. I don't skip episodes, and eventually somewhere in the 2nd season or maybe the beginning of the 3rd, it becomes a chore to watch so I quit. Damn.

I'll try again, but I am not wondering if I am going to need to include freakin Discovery, which I have very little interest in.

I skip about 1/3 of TOS. That's right on par with TNG. I have no more desire to sit through The Empath than I do Code of Honor or some terrible story about Troi's mom. DS9 is where that number shrinks dramatically. Of the episodes I really enjoy watching and just put on some time when I want mindless TV on, it's probably about 1/3 from each series. DS9 and VOY do slightly better than TOS and TNG, but it's still pretty close to that either way.

I've actually been watching some of my lesser watched TNG episodes lately. The Masterpiece Society was very good. Hadn't seen it in ages.

[Samsara]

Started my re-watch of DS9 last night. First time I am watching the show since 2003. It is amazing how much I remembered regarding dialogue.