Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[El Barto]

Riker is a fun guy.  When they cooked up TNG, one obvious question was whether/how would they try to reproduce the dynamic between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. 

With Picard being the calm, seasoned veteran, and Data kinda being the Spock character, Riker brought the brash, the arrogant.  Yeah, the line to Data was kinduva dick thing to say, but it was in character.  Riker could definitely be an asshole sometimes.

I don't think recreating the K/S/M dynamic was ever a consideration for TNG. That relied on conflict which was expressly forbidden in the first few seasons (Roddenberry's). Data's role was much like Spocks in that he was the non-human who was there to provide commentary on the human condition. Quark/Odo and Seven of Nine/Tuvok both filled the same role. It wasn't until ENT that they specifically tried to recreate that dynamic (with the non-triad Flox as the outside observer). I'm really not sure what their intention was with Riker, but that applies to most of their crew, though. Worf, Geordie, and Tasha were similarly non-defined. I think they just figured they see what happened with them.

And I've always maintained that Riker was the only character on the show with any personality. As a sci-fi character he's kind of boring, but most of them were. Riker liked to have a good time and wasn't afraid of a little debauchery. That made him solely unique on that show. Even the Klingon was pretty uptight most of the time.

Well everybody, let's take the next two days off. I think I'll settle in with a nice cup of tea.
There's a romance novel I've been wanting to read.
Somebody wrote a paper on theoretical spacial dynamics I've really been wanting to read.
I will mediate now.
Yeah, I'll be in holodeck 7 with the door locked. Unless we're under attack I do not want to be disturbed.

[Progmetty]

Humans are eaten alive by the radiation. Data was the only one they could send. While it's possible that they could have sent others once they learned the inhabitants were immune, it's not at all guaranteed that those people didn't acquire the immunity over time. Time the Enterprise crew didn't have. Data really was the only option.

Ohh I radiation thing skipped my mind, I stand corrected.


While I agree with you guys that Riker is a fun guy, I find the actor intolerable so far, even by early nineties T.V. standards. He's doing everything that Shatner got away with help of his natural charm, this guy does not have that, everything he does seems forced.
 

[Progmetty]

Up The Long Ladder: Good episode. A couple of raised eyebrows for me here, I looked them up and it seems like nobody else thought anything of it so I must have over-thinking it:
1 - Riker murders two almost-fully developed human clones in cold blood.
2 - Picard's plan for these two civilizations dictates that every woman of the under-developed group would have to mate with three men.
Just thought for 90's audience, maybe even now, that these two points would poke somebody the wrong way, but I was wrong.

I mentioned way earlier in the thread when I started watched TOS that I found a podcast called Mission Log that does commentary and analysis on every Star Trek episode and movie ever made, it was commissioned by Rod Roddenberry so they have access to a lot of paper work and production notes.
I'm usually behind on the podcasts too and I just got around to the podcast about Up The Long Ladder and it turns out the episode writer Melinda Snodgrass did get a lot of angry mail from pro-life activists and organizations.

[Progmetty]

Who Watches the Watchers
Fuckin bravo, powerful episode, great prime directive episode, possibly the best of it's kind, in terms of execution.
Patrick Stewart fuckin killed this one, the scene where he was talking to Nuria after they beamed her up, had me hanging on his every word. I don't think Stewart struggled much to find his footing with Picard but at this point he's certainly there, I now see why this character is so revered by fans.
I was moved when Liko begged Picard to return his dead wife to life, the helplessness and the anguish of the situation on both Liko and Picard was pretty overwhelming emotionally.
It's funny they mentioned in the episode that these people have come along way from believing that the stars controlled their fate and I've recently watched an Orville episode about a planet that does just that.

[El Barto]

Good episode. It was Picard's frustration that resonated with me. No matter how hard he tried he couldn't reach the guy. TNG will have a few more of these first contact episodes, and they're all excellent.

And there's another Orville episode that hits on this one pretty hard. Mad Idolatry combines WWtW with a Voyager episode you'll see in about 7 years to make something quite good.

[ReaperKK]

Up The Long Ladder: Good episode. A couple of raised eyebrows for me here, I looked them up and it seems like nobody else thought anything of it so I must have over-thinking it:
1 - Riker murders two almost-fully developed human clones in cold blood.
2 - Picard's plan for these two civilizations dictates that every woman of the under-developed group would have to mate with three men.
Just thought for 90's audience, maybe even now, that these two points would poke somebody the wrong way, but I was wrong.

I mentioned way earlier in the thread when I started watched TOS that I found a podcast called Mission Log that does commentary and analysis on every Star Trek episode and movie ever made, it was commissioned by Rod Roddenberry so they have access to a lot of paper work and production notes.
I'm usually behind on the podcasts too and I just got around to the podcast about Up The Long Ladder and it turns out the episode writer Melinda Snodgrass did get a lot of angry mail from pro-life activists and organizations.

Mission Log is good but if you want a great comedy trek podcast check out Greatest Gen. They started with TNG and are now in Season 4 of DS9. One of my favorite podcasts.

[Podaar]

The Mrs. and I finished binge watching the first season of Discovery (CBS all access had a free week). I've occasionally read, in this thread, how bad of a Trek show it is. What am I missing? Why the disgust?

We thought the stories were good. The driving tech behind the Discovery was original and thought provoking. The actors were great (for the most part).

I especially thought the writing was great, the season twist was really well done. It made sense and I didn't see it coming. I love that, when I look back and think, "Damn, they were setting that shit up for eleven episodes and I was clueless." I think some of the characters were written a bit one dimensional (*cough*Michael Burnam*cough*) but I see why they did that. It appears, from the little we've seen of the second season, that they are remedying that.

So, anyway, educate me. Why should I have hated it?

[gmillerdrake]

The Mrs. and I finished binge watching the first season of Discovery (CBS all access had a free week). I've occasionally read, in this thread, how bad of a Trek show it is. What am I missing? Why the disgust?

We thought the stories were good. The driving tech behind the Discovery was original and thought provoking. The actors were great (for the most part).

I especially thought the writing was great, the season twist was really well done. It made sense and I didn't see it coming. I love that, when I look back and think, "Damn, they were setting that shit up for eleven episodes and I was clueless." I think some of the characters were written a bit one dimensional (*cough*Michael Burnam*cough*) but I see why they did that. It appears, from the little we've seen of the second season, that they are remedying that.

So, anyway, educate me. Why should I have hated it?

I’ve dug both seasons. I especially like this season two, it’s been really good. Season one was ‘good’ and I enjoyed it but I can see where some didn’t like it. But this season seems to me that they are really getting a feel for the show and it’s translated well.

[Progmetty]

I loathe Sanqbota Something-Green ( Sasha from Walking Dead, too lazy to look up her actual name) but otherwise I'm not opposed to checking it out one day. I got ways to go though.

[El Barto]

The Mrs. and I finished binge watching the first season of Discovery (CBS all access had a free week). I've occasionally read, in this thread, how bad of a Trek show it is. What am I missing? Why the disgust?

We thought the stories were good. The driving tech behind the Discovery was original and thought provoking. The actors were great (for the most part).

I especially thought the writing was great, the season twist was really well done. It made sense and I didn't see it coming. I love that, when I look back and think, "Damn, they were setting that shit up for eleven episodes and I was clueless." I think some of the characters were written a bit one dimensional (*cough*Michael Burnam*cough*) but I see why they did that. It appears, from the little we've seen of the second season, that they are remedying that.

So, anyway, educate me. Why should I have hated it?

I have no opinion on whether it's good or bad. My objection hasn't been about quality, but simply the fact that it's really no longer Star Trek. Perhaps that's stubborn nostalgia on my part, but I'm a fan of the ST universe. Now that they keep creating new ones, with more and more emphasis on appealing to the ADD audiences of today, it's just never interested me in the slightest.

[abydos]

For one, other Treks don't seem to have plagiarised obscure indie Steam games. Allegedly.

[Adami]

For one, other Treks don't seem to have plagiarised obscure indie Steam games. Allegedly.

Hm? Haven't heard this. Nor do I know what a Steam game is.

[BlobVanDam]

Eh I don't think there's any actual connection between the two, just a coincidence they both happen to involve tardigrades and space.

I mean that does sound oddly specific, but the similarities didn't really go beyond that from what I recall.


And I'm not really defending Discovery here. I'd like to see this game win a lawsuit so that Discovery has to be erased from canon officially.

[abydos]

Has similarities to the characters too https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2018/09/11/understanding-the-star-trek-discovery-plagiarism-allegations/

[Podaar]

I have no opinion on whether it's good or bad. My objection hasn't been about quality, but simply the fact that it's really no longer Star Trek. Perhaps that's stubborn nostalgia on my part, but I'm a fan of the ST universe. Now that they keep creating new ones, with more and more emphasis on appealing to the ADD audiences of today, it's just never interested me in the slightest.

I'd like to see this game win a lawsuit so that Discovery has to be erased from canon officially.

See, this right here is what I don't get. What does this even mean? I grew up watching Star Trek too. Unlike some of you, I didn't even need to watch it in syndication--although I did all through my teens. I watched every episode of TNG (although only once), was a constant fan of DS9 until it got a bit too soap operaish.

What makes Discovery NOT real Star Trek. You two (Blob and Barto) act like it's self evident, yet I know not of what you speak.

[Polarbear]

I have no opinion on whether it's good or bad. My objection hasn't been about quality, but simply the fact that it's really no longer Star Trek. Perhaps that's stubborn nostalgia on my part, but I'm a fan of the ST universe. Now that they keep creating new ones, with more and more emphasis on appealing to the ADD audiences of today, it's just never interested me in the slightest.

I'd like to see this game win a lawsuit so that Discovery has to be erased from canon officially.

See, this right here is what I don't get. What does this even mean? I grew up watching Star Trek too. Unlike some of you, I didn't even need to watch it in syndication--although I did all through my teens. I watched every episode of TNG (although only once), was a constant fan of DS9 until it got a bit too soap operaish.

What makes Discovery NOT real Star Trek. You two (Blob and Barto) act like it's self evident, yet I know not of what you speak.

I was not a fan of season 1, like at all. Season 2 is a big improvement Imo, and I have been enjoying it quite a bit.

But I'm also sick of this notion that Discovery is not real Star Trek. I'm also a big fan of pretty much all the previous Star Trek excluding Enterprise. I have no problem disconnecting my brain from what I think is cannon, and enjoying Discovery as it's own thing.

[Podaar]

I have no problem disconnecting my brain from what I think is cannon, and enjoying Discovery as it's own thing.

Still not getting it.

What is not canon about Discovery? The spore drive? The head shape of Klingons? The fucking uniforms?

Blob mentioned, the other day, something about their zero-grav suits being too much like Ironman.  Really? In what way does that take away from the story they're telling about the Red Angel? If the producers of Star Trek in the 60's could have had cool shit like that, they would have. Besides, the really stupid thing about watching old ST was how low tech everything was. Should Discovery have stations with analog push buttons, toggle switches and flashing incandescent bulbs instead of touch screens? Is that the problem?

[Adami]

I have no problem disconnecting my brain from what I think is cannon, and enjoying Discovery as it's own thing.

Still not getting it.

What is not canon about Discovery? The spore drive? The head shape of Klingons? The fucking uniforms?

Blob mentioned, the other day, something about their zero-grav suits being too much like Ironman.  Really? In what way does that take away from the story they're telling about the Red Angel? If the producers of Star Trek in the 60's could have had cool shit like that, they would have. Besides, the really stupid thing about watching old ST was how low tech everything was. Should Discovery have stations with analog push buttons, toggle switches and flashing incandescent bulbs instead of touch screens? Is that the problem?

Maybe they should stop trying to milk the TOS era and running into all of these problems?

Set it further in the future and all complaints about tech not lining up go away. But no, everything has to be related Kirk/Spock somehow.

[Podaar]

That’s a fair point, Adami.

[Adami]

Honestly I blame shows like Big Bang Theory who dumbed down nerd culture to lowest common denominator. Now Star Trek, in the mainstream, is associated only with Kirk and Spock. Some people know Picard, but now EVERYONE knows Kirk and Spock. And since CBS seems to be going for a lowest common denominator audience (bigger is better) then they have to stay with what the audience finds comfortable. The new movies used the love of Kirk/Spock to establish an entire new theme for Star Trek. Big, loud, fast, dark, moody. So now we're stuck with that. Until 2009, that wasn't what Star Trek was about. It was sometimes big, it was sometimes loud, it was sometimes fast, it was sometimes dark and moody, but it was always about more than that. Now all the other stuff is stripped away and it's a big action adventure with bright lights, endless internal drama and more typical scifi dystopian themes. THAT is why we're saying it's not really Star Trek.

Is it completely unrelated and unrecognizable? No. But it lost the thing that separated Star Trek from stuff like Star Wars. Now it's basically a darker Star Wars.

[El Barto]

Honestly I blame shows like Big Bang Theory who dumbed down nerd culture to lowest common denominator. Now Star Trek, in the mainstream, is associated only with Kirk and Spock. Some people know Picard, but now EVERYONE knows Kirk and Spock. And since CBS seems to be going for a lowest common denominator audience (bigger is better) then they have to stay with what the audience finds comfortable. The new movies used the love of Kirk/Spock to establish an entire new theme for Star Trek. Big, loud, fast, dark, moody. So now we're stuck with that. Until 2009, that wasn't what Star Trek was about. It was sometimes big, it was sometimes loud, it was sometimes fast, it was sometimes dark and moody, but it was always about more than that. Now all the other stuff is stripped away and it's a big action adventure with bright lights, endless internal drama and more typical scifi dystopian themes. THAT is why we're saying it's not really Star Trek.

Is it completely unrelated and unrecognizable? No. But it lost the thing that separated Star Trek from stuff like Star Wars. Now it's basically a darker Star Wars.

Insofar as the movies go, I've suggested Fast and Furious in space.

Part of my problem is that we now have essentially 3 universes to deal with. It doesn't look like Star Trek. It doesn't feel like Star Trek. It doesn't behave like Star Trek. It's mostly Star trek in terminology only. If they'd changed the character's names and called the Klingons "Morfalls" or something would it be even recognizable as Star Trek?

[Adami]

I have not seen many F&F movies so that could be a good description. I also never saw Into Darkness past the first 30 minutes when I turned it off.

But from the 2009 movie and Beyond, if you take modern Star Wars and remove the charm/Force stuff and make it more moody, it feels like new ST.

[Samsara]

Anyone hear anything further about DS9 ever seeing the light of day on Blu-ray? I've just about lost hope at this point. I sold my original DVDs more than a decade ago (HUGE mistake), and keep eyeing the big set on Amazon.com, but its only DVD. I'd much prefer Blu-ray. But if I remember, there were some issues with that ever happening. Anyone glued into Trek more than me these days that can give me the latest?

[Adami]

Anyone hear anything further about DS9 ever seeing the light of day on Blu-ray? I've just about lost hope at this point. I sold my original DVDs more than a decade ago (HUGE mistake), and keep eyeing the big set on Amazon.com, but its only DVD. I'd much prefer Blu-ray. But if I remember, there were some issues with that ever happening. Anyone glued into Trek more than me these days that can give me the latest?

I doubt it. It would be very cool, but I doubt there'd be enough money in it.

You'll see 600 new versions of ToS before you see Blu Ray for DS9 or Voyager.

[El Barto]

Anyone hear anything further about DS9 ever seeing the light of day on Blu-ray? I've just about lost hope at this point. I sold my original DVDs more than a decade ago (HUGE mistake), and keep eyeing the big set on Amazon.com, but its only DVD. I'd much prefer Blu-ray. But if I remember, there were some issues with that ever happening. Anyone glued into Trek more than me these days that can give me the latest?

I doubt it. It would be very cool, but I doubt there'd be enough money in it.

You'll see 600 new versions of ToS before you see Blu Ray for DS9 or Voyager.

I don't know thing one about it, but it seems pretty likely that there's a rights issue between Paramount and CBS that makes such a thing problematic. If I understand that clusterfuck correctly, DS9 belongs Paramount, but CBS still owns "Star Trek." My hunch would be that CBS wants nothing to do with any further promotion of the TNG era since it doesn't jibe with their re-imagining of the ST universe.

[Adami]

It might also be a matter of how it was filmed. I think (at least i think they did with TNG) have to go in and re-do a lot of effects since they were printed directly on to the film. Or something.

So it's probably all of it. No money in it. Rights issue. Lack of interest. Technical problems.

[BlobVanDam]

It might also be a matter of how it was filmed. I think (at least i think they did with TNG) have to go in and re-do a lot of effects since they were printed directly on to the film. Or something.

So it's probably all of it. No money in it. Rights issue. Lack of interest. Technical problems.

Those shows were shot on film, but all effects and editing were done on tape, so the only existing masters are SD tapes. To release it in HD, they have to basically redo each episode from scratch. So they have to locate the original shot film for every single element, scan it all to computer, recut it, re-composite all of the VFX, and any graphic that doesn't exist on film needs to be redone, such as titles and a lot of the visual effects etc.
I don't know about rights issues concerning remastering DS9/VOY (maybe there is, maybe there isn't), but I'm sure that issue just comes down to money in the end. And DS9 and Voyager aren't as popular as TNG, so it might have been too much of a gamble to begin with to invest the money into remastering them. They've done it with TNG, so they already have some idea of the money involved and the return they'd expect.

[ReaperKK]

So Blob is that the process that they had to do for TNG?

I would love a remaster but if it doesn't happen then it doesn't happen.

[BlobVanDam]

So Blob is that the process that they had to do for TNG?

I would love a remaster but if it doesn't happen then it doesn't happen.

Yeah, that's what I'm basing that on. Pretty sure TNG/DS9/VOY were all produced basically the same. Enterprise on the other hand was already mastered in HD in the first place (although the CG was only rendered at 720p), which is why they could release that in HD.
I worry a lot of the other less popular '90s scifi/fantasy shows will suffer the same fate and not get HD remasters, because it's a lot of work, and the more time goes on, the more chance there is of those original elements degrading or being misplaced/destroyed.

[ReaperKK]

I'm not sure if I sent you a video but did you see that machine learning remaster sample someone put up for DS9?

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah you linked me. Pretty standard upscaling results imo. Definitely an improvement over SD, but you'll never gain the extra quality and colour range you'd only get from rescanning the film.

[Samsara]

Thanks all. I may go and pull the trigger on the DS9 DVD box set. Its at the lowest price point I've seen (69.99 USD), and I've been tracking it for a few years. If anyone has been holding out, it might be time.

[El Barto]

Has anybody ever considered that the depiction of the prophets in The Emissary makes no sense whatsoever in relation to the rest of the series? These guys interact with the Bajorans for millennia. The take care of an earlier emissary and then send him back a thousand years later. They go to Earth to, er, deposit The Sisko, specifically so that he'll reappear at a later time to fulfill a destiny they've already planned out. When he does show up they have absolutely no clue who he is, how he works, what time is, or any other damn thing they necessarily need to know about.

[FreezingPoint]

That's a good point, something I haven't really thought about before. Then again, I rarely watch The Emissary and don't remember that episode that well to be honest.

The only explanation that I can come up with is that because the prophets don't exist in linear time, creating The Sisko so he comes back, etc. doesn't need to go in an A -> B -> C fashion. Whatever version of time, if any, the prophets subscribe to, perhaps it makes sense to them.

Or maybe, their ignorance was feigned on purpose in order to slowly begin Sisko's journey and relationship with them. If they had said from the start, "Hey, Sisko, you're here! Awesome. By the way, just so you know, you had a different mom that you didn't know about, and we made YOU happen. Oh, and we made you an extremely important religious symbol and will go through some tough times the next seven years and then will spend time with us indefinitely after that", he probably would left to go work Surplus Depot Z15 on Qualor II.

[Adami]

I have a wild and pretty crazy theory.


What if....and follow me here.....the writers just didn't have a clue how the prophets were going to be used when they wrote that first episode and it's simply an inconsistency?

Sorry, I'll put the tinfoil hat down now.