Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[rumborak]

Episodic is fine, but it's the lack of character growth that bugs me.  No one learns, no one develops over the show.  Troi, La Forge, Crusher and even Riker are the worst culprits for this.   

I think specifically in Star Trek, characters have "functions" in a plot. Data/Spock/Odo were there to illustrate an outsider perspective. McCoy/Troi/Kira show the emotional/impulsive side. When you design characters like that, they become straightjacketed.

[BlobVanDam]

A passable episode, but not great.

In the time since Stamets became the nagivator thingy, they haven't yet touched upon the impact it's had on him or his partner, so it was a little odd to feature him here with still not a lot of exploration of that.

The groundhog day idea has been done endlessly in scifi, and while it's not an original concept at this point, I usually love this kind of thing because time travel. Unfortunately, it was not done particularly well here, very badly paced progression, skimming over more and more each time to cover up that it wouldn't have really worked due to the timing. It skimmed over it so fast that it actually appeared that Michael was retaining the information each loop, which was not the case. By the end they managed to get everyone on board very quickly before Mudd got to the bridge (which seemed to take him the whole time loop and yet he hadn't managed to really achieve much apparently). Skimming over it in montage didn't help. I also don't know how they improved their plan so dramatically for the final loop since Stamets had been taken by Mudd at that point, so not a lot should have changed. Maybe they skipped over even more loops in there. Even from the start they skipped over multiple loops. Poor writing and progression overall there.

Again Michael's character development was worked into the plot in a contrived way, with the whole dancing/kissing thing taking the forefront. On the plus side, at least the characters have stopped being assholes to each other, and almost feel like a functional crew now. Some of them are maybe even in danger of becoming likable.

I still can't accept this was Mudd. Sticking in Stella at the end felt so out of place and fan service-y, and only served to cement the disconnect between this and the character we saw in TOS.

-You're mad!
-No, i'm MUDD.

Writers, you've got to be kidding me.

[soupytwist]

I thought after the utter drivel they served up last week, this was a breathe of fresh air.  Not only a good episode, but all so an episode that felt dare I say it somewhat Star Trekkie.   

[BlobVanDam]

It probably felt somewhat Trekky because Trek has done it before. And better. But I do much prefer them doingmore straight up scifi stuff like this, than the rest of the drama/war stuff.

I forgot to mention the sillyness of the time travel device just disappearing once the half hour loop limit expired. Hm ok.
Also Mudd's helmet was funky. A stolen Andorian helmet perhaps? I dug the design.

[soupytwist]

It probably felt somewhat Trekky because Trek has done it before. And better. But I do much prefer them doingmore straight up scifi stuff like this, than the rest of the drama/war stuff.

Agreed.  It was quite 'cause and effect'' like.

I forgot to mention the sillyness of the time travel device just disappearing once the half hour loop limit expired. Hm ok.
Also Mudd's helmet was funky. A stolen Andorian helmet perhaps? I dug the design.

I'm actually liking this 'version' (meaning a mostly completely different character, with the same name) of Mudd.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm fine with the character as its own character, and I like he way he's played. It's just a shame they had to call him Mudd. He would have been a good original character.

[abydos]

Releasing the time loop comedy relief episode so soon? Hmm... Also, for a ship and a show called Discovery, they aren't doing much discovering. I'm still pissed that they decided to make this during a war and not post-TNG/DS9.

[El Barto]

So are there actually standalone episodes in this? I have very little hope for it, but if it is't entirely built around their silly Klingon concept I might check a couple out.

[BlobVanDam]

So are there actually standalone episodes in this? I have very little hope for it, but if it is't entirely built around their silly Klingon concept I might check a couple out.

This week's episode didn't really have much to do with the Klingons at all, aside from Mudd wanting to steal the ship to sell to the Klingons because they wanted to find out the secret of its instantaneous drive system. It wouldn't have made much difference what his motivation was.
I think this was the first episode that wasn't more directly tied to the Klingon or spore drive plots though. I don't think any other episode would make a lot of sense standalone.

Releasing the time loop comedy relief episode so soon? Hmm... Also, for a ship and a show called Discovery, they aren't doing much discovering. I'm still pissed that they decided to make this during a war and not post-TNG/DS9.

It wasn't comedy.

[abydos]

It had its attempt at being a bit on the lighter side. I don't think they can ever do something that is fully funny in the way they've set up the show so this is as far as it would go I guess.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, it just doesn't fit the dark brooding war theme they've set up. Their few attempts at humour have fallen completely flat.

[DougMasters]

I liked this episode a lot, when I could get cbs' stupid app to work, I had to rewatch it a couple days later.

I loved how they used the characters to really unwrap the intricacies of each time reset as opposed to the events. I think they did very well writing what is a pretty typical unwrapping of characters, within unique circumstances.

Wilson is great as MUDD.

Burnam's "deep secret she's never told anyone" was a cheesy letdown, and not the good kinda keyboard cheese, the bad kinda turntable cheese.

Yeah, it just doesn't fit the dark brooding war theme they've set up. Their few attempts at humour have fallen completely flat.

Me personally I've liked the few times they've gone humor, though they certainly don't excel at it.

[rumborak]

The new episode had a distinct Avatar feel to it.

[BlobVanDam]

More slow boring Klingon scenes, more pseudo-science junk, more out of place callbacks (the TWOK quote), more killin' off characters because it's the cool thing to do, and this time some shocking editing. And is the Klingon ship built at a wonky angle or are they just abusing the hell out of the dutch angle shots? A fairly dull but mostly tolerable episode. They set up some half ok ideas with the glowy spore people, but didn't get too far with it.

[soupytwist]

The Spore Drive.  To Moldly Go?

[abydos]

Apparently this is how this whole Spore Drive thing got started, I didn't know. https://youtu.be/mPqWstVnRjQ?t=7104
It's a fascinating episode, very interesting to watch in full. I think this is the TED talk mentioned in the previous link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI5frPV58tY

[BlobVanDam]

It's funny how he talks about Star Trek inspiring science (which it definitely did), and then gave them that trash. And the whole tardigrade RNA (or whatever it was) idea was proven to be wrong shortly after that original paper was released, so that was also bad science. This show will not be inspiring science for decades to come. I doubt anyone will even be watching this show in a decade.

[abydos]

As he put it, the writers elaborated on his concepts "6 ways a sunday"

[BlobVanDam]

KLINGON NIPPLES ARE NOW CANON WTF

Just kidding. Nothing in this show should ever be considered canon. Not kidding about seeing Klingon tits however.

So they've already busted the Klingon cloaking tech. The Klingons will have to overcome that if they even want to pretend to stay true to canon. The whole story felt silly and contrived from start to finish, as usual. JUST ONE MORE JUMP WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG WITH ONLY ONE MORE JUMP. If he going to evolve into a lizard now?
And couldn't they have come up with a less conspicuous sensor than one with giant flashing blue lights and a screen on it with audio confirmation?

Given the stuff at the start, I'm guessing they've ended up in the mirror universe or something? It would bust some people's wishful thinking that this show takes place in the mirror universe (which is a dumb idea anyway, since the mirror universe NEVER had a Federation).

[Logain Ablar]

  I drop in on this thread every Monday to find out what to expect in the next episode.

Now I discover there are Klingon nipples to look forward to..

The show really is pretty mediocre, but I'm still watching, for some reason.

[BlobVanDam]

You might have to freeze-frame to see dem nips clearly. It's a tasteful artsy montage inter-species sex scene flashback.

I never thought I'd ever be writing that sentence in a Star Trek thread, but here we are.

For anyone curious, they basically look like mini craters. No wonder the Klingons look like garbage. They instead put all of their effort into designing and creating the nipples. It all makes sense now!

If you're like me, the sole reason you're watching this show is because it has the words "Star Trek" in the title.

[Orbert]

Well, that and Klingon nipples

[JayOctavarium]

Alrighty. Gotta get a mod to change the name of this thread.

[Adami]

The Trouble With Nipples?

[BlobVanDam]

[soupytwist]

The first two episodes of this show were odd.  Since then apart from one dud (episode 5 or 6) the show has been improving.  Personally I really enjoyed the mid season episode, the best so far - and it also seems to be slowly winning over the fans (bar Blob ).  Star Trek forums and reddit the tone has definitely moved towards a more positive shift (admittedly that might just be the fans who don't like it just gave up on it  ).    Although the show isn't without it's issues (the often boring and hard to follow Klingon story, the tech levels, Burnham not being the most engaging lead, dullest Doctor since Crusher), I'm actually genuinely looking forward to it's return in January.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't see it winning over more fans. People who already liked it from the start are enjoying it more than initially, but I haven't seen detractors warm to it. The majority of Trek fans I know think it's weak, and many others simply aren't watching it at all (including in this thread), or abandoned it after a few episodes, perhaps leaving the impression of a more positive reception.
The show has improved a little since the start, but when you set the bar at rock bottom, there is literally nowhere to go but up. The opening two parter was about a 1/10, whereas the best has been maybe a 4/10 in my book. The best of this show is about equivalent to a lower/average S1/2 episode of Enterprise.

[soupytwist]

I don't see it winning over more fans. People who already liked it from the start are enjoying it more than initially, but I haven't seen detractors warm to it. The majority of Trek fans I know think it's weak, and many others simply aren't watching it at all (including in this thread), or abandoned it after a few episodes, perhaps leaving the impression of a more positive reception.
The show has improved a little since the start, but when you set the bar at rock bottom, there is literally nowhere to go but up. The opening two parter was about a 1/10, whereas the best has been maybe a 4/10 in my book. The best of this show is about equivalent to a lower/average S1/2 episode of Enterprise.

The Star Trek reddit page is definitely far less toxic than it was.  Jammers Star Trek page the comments under his reviews are improving too - that may help that Jammer himself has been pretty positive about the show though.   His review of 'into the forest' is up - nearly top marks, the comments below are much more positive than the early episodes were getting!!
https://www.jammersreviews.com/st-dsc/s1/into-the-forest.php

'Chaos on the Bridge' showed how badly TNG was received by fans at the time, it took two seasons till that show won over the Trekkies.  Imagine how bad the internet would have reacted to those first two seasons (episode : 3 Code of Honour would have probably killed the show dead  ).

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, the first two seasons of TNG were bad, but they were still Star Trek, and under the circumstances it was understandable and forgivable. Discovery doesn't have the potential that TNG did even through the crap. It has betrayed Star Trek on every single level to the point of being irredeemable to me, and there's no excuse for it besides pandering to the GOT crowd that doesn't care for or get Trek. You could give it 7 seasons (god forbid), and it would still be an abomination. Gene Roddenberry would be rolling in his grave to see what his vision has become.

And I'm still genuinely haunted by the image of Klingon tits. Like, how does this even happen? Why? How? I........ I just can't even find the words to express how low this is for the franchise. It makes the Duras sisters and their boob window attire look classy and tasteful by comparison.

[abydos]

It seems to me that the only way for them to save Discovery without completely rewriting the current characters and story and make things super weird is to wrap this war bs up by the end of the season (preferably everyone is dead or in prison, with the exception of Tilly) and season 2 to deal with a totally new crew on The Discovery-D (or w/e the appropriate ways to name these classes of ships is) some years after the events of S1 and return to proper Star Trek feel.

[soupytwist]

Yeah, the first two seasons of TNG were bad, but they were still Star Trek, and under the circumstances it was understandable and forgivable. Discovery doesn't have the potential that TNG did even through the crap. It has betrayed Star Trek on every single level to the point of being irredeemable to me, and there's no excuse for it besides pandering to the GOT crowd that doesn't care for or get Trek. You could give it 7 seasons (god forbid), and it would still be an abomination. Gene Roddenberry would be rolling in his grave to see what his vision has become.

And I'm still genuinely haunted by the image of Klingon tits. Like, how does this even happen? Why? How? I........ I just can't even find the words to express how low this is for the franchise. It makes the Duras sisters and their boob window attire look classy and tasteful by comparison.

Nah I disagree.  Roddenberrys new vision for TNG was the major problem with the first two seasons of that show, his perfect utopian humanity with no conflict rule meant boring writing, which Hurley then followed it slavishly.   When Hurley left and people like Piller, Moore and Ira Steven Behr joined for season 3 and undid the shackles of Gene's vision, only then did the show improve and actually started winning over the fans.   If they'd followed Roddenberrys vision I doubt TNG would have survived much beyond season 3, even with it's odd syndication style.

Roddenberrys vision for TOS and TNG were very different things.

As for Klingon nipples, meh, I don't have an issue with it.  It's not as awful as the (probably unintentional) racism in Code of Honour, or ST's history with Irish stereotypes over the years.

[jingle.boy]

I think where TNG succeeded was that they balanced the conflict with the exploration, and threw different angles at each.  Borg episodes, Sins of the Father/Redemption, Chain of Command ... all those arcs were great.  But honestly, some of the best episodes didn't involve any space battles - Q episodes, The Inner Light, Parallels, Family, Sarek, Darmok...

I haven't watch a single second of Discovery, it sure doesn't sound like there's anything as good as Darmok on the horizon.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, the first two seasons of TNG were bad, but they were still Star Trek, and under the circumstances it was understandable and forgivable. Discovery doesn't have the potential that TNG did even through the crap. It has betrayed Star Trek on every single level to the point of being irredeemable to me, and there's no excuse for it besides pandering to the GOT crowd that doesn't care for or get Trek. You could give it 7 seasons (god forbid), and it would still be an abomination. Gene Roddenberry would be rolling in his grave to see what his vision has become.

And I'm still genuinely haunted by the image of Klingon tits. Like, how does this even happen? Why? How? I........ I just can't even find the words to express how low this is for the franchise. It makes the Duras sisters and their boob window attire look classy and tasteful by comparison.

Nah I disagree.  Roddenberrys new vision for TNG was the major problem with the first two seasons of that show, his perfect utopian humanity with no conflict rule meant boring writing, which Hurley then followed it slavishly.   When Hurley left and people like Piller, Moore and Ira Steven Behr joined for season 3 and undid the shackles of Gene's vision, only then did the show improve and actually started winning over the fans.   If they'd followed Roddenberrys vision I doubt TNG would have survived much beyond season 3, even with it's odd syndication style.

Roddenberrys vision for TOS and TNG were very different things.

That's not really what I meant by Gene's vision, but I went through this only recently, so I'm not repeating myself.
Unfortunately Discovery has made the opposite mistake and equated "conflict" for "good drama". Human conflict does not automatically make for compelling viewing, nor does a lack of human conflict mean boring (although early TNG certainly isn't a strong case for that argument ). It all comes down to the quality of the writing, of which Discovery has very little, regardless of approach.

[ZirconBlue]

But honestly, some of the best episodes didn't involve any space battles - Q episodes, The Inner Light, Parallels, Family, Sarek, Darmok...

Q doesn't belong anywhere near a list of "best episodes".  I hate Q and everything to do with him. 

[ReaperKK]

Q episodes were meh in my book.

It's sort of like Superman syndrome; when you have a character who can literally do anything he wants it's not as interesting.