Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.  (Read 134346 times)

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1050 on: October 11, 2016, 08:56:22 AM »
When Glenn Beck is almost saying "Yes, vote for Hillary", you know we're in bizarro election world.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/glenn-beck-hillary-clinton_us_57fc695be4b0e655eab74351
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 11:26:49 AM by Sir GuitarCozmo »

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1051 on: October 11, 2016, 11:23:53 AM »
Got bored during my diversity webinar today. I think this sums up today's shitshow.


Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1052 on: October 11, 2016, 11:36:48 AM »
Trump has come completely unhinged on Twitter, outright attacking Paul Ryan, John McCain, and others.

Really amazing to witness this. Assuming nothing crazy happens with Clinton before Election Day, it really does feel like the GOP have just given up for the most part and Trump is now a rogue agent. What does this party look like in 2018? 2020?   


Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1053 on: October 11, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »
Like I said, the GOP is imploding far more than I expected, and at a time when I figured they should already be rebuilding. Up until now it's been a cold war within the grand ole party. Things have now turned quite hot, and reconstruction is nowhere in sight.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1054 on: October 11, 2016, 11:59:59 AM »
I'm panicking over the election, but not the party.   Once the election is over, I can't see Trump sticking around much to clean up his mess.  At that point, the toxicity will be gone, and while I have no doubt there will be recriminations for a while, as long as the slaughter isn't too great in Congress, the Party'll survive. 

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1055 on: October 11, 2016, 12:11:07 PM »
I'm panicking over the election, but not the party.   Once the election is over, I can't see Trump sticking around much to clean up his mess.  At that point, the toxicity will be gone, and while I have no doubt there will be recriminations for a while, as long as the slaughter isn't too great in Congress, the Party'll survive.
Do you think the Trump fiasco will have implications down the ticket?

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1056 on: October 11, 2016, 01:03:12 PM »
It already has. And there are now Trump supporters refusing to vote for anybody that won't back him.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1057 on: October 11, 2016, 01:16:22 PM »
A bad lip reading of the first debate.  :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLYHu0AG8GI

Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1058 on: October 11, 2016, 01:26:07 PM »
Trump is an anomaly in the party. Once he loses his influence will be gone. His supporters will go the way of the Tea Party. They'll be around but their influence will be minimal or non-existent. I'm hoping this is a slap in the face to the Republican Party that they couldn't even beat Hillary Clinton. They have 4 years to get their shit together and if they don't beat her in round 2 then I think it's fair to start discussing the end of the party.

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1059 on: October 11, 2016, 01:27:12 PM »
Trump is an anomaly in the party. Once he loses his influence will be gone. His supporters will go the way of the Tea Party. They'll be around but their influence will be minimal or non-existent.

I'm hoping that's the case... unless some pissed off billionaire decides to start a news network.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1060 on: October 11, 2016, 01:50:36 PM »
I'm panicking over the election, but not the party.   Once the election is over, I can't see Trump sticking around much to clean up his mess.  At that point, the toxicity will be gone, and while I have no doubt there will be recriminations for a while, as long as the slaughter isn't too great in Congress, the Party'll survive.
Do you think the Trump fiasco will have implications down the ticket?

Well, I think I'm an iconoclast when it comes to this point.  I think el Barto is right in terms of "right now", but I have an odd faith that in the cold darkness of the voting booth, if these people are so against the Left and Hillary that they are willing to vote "D.J. Trump", they're not going to be able to pull the "Blue" lever come November.

Put a different way, it's all belligerent school yard talk at this point. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1061 on: October 11, 2016, 02:17:26 PM »
This goes beyond the diehards, though. Trump never had the minorities. He's losing women and evangelicals. I don't think the party is even close to being able to draw them back to the fold. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1062 on: October 11, 2016, 02:22:29 PM »
I've seen quite a few Republican friends who have said similar, all these people talk about not voting for Trump, but when the time comes, they will.  I'm not sure I believe that, at least not on a large enough scale to have any impact.

And personally, I am fine with the party imploding.  They need to break down to rebuild to be competitive for the POTUS, I am not sure there will ever be another Republican president the way the GOP currently is.

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1063 on: October 11, 2016, 03:04:02 PM »
This goes beyond the diehards, though. Trump never had the minorities. He's losing women and evangelicals. I don't think the party is even close to being able to draw them back to the fold.

I agree. The two way polls are currently a lot closer than the four ways, but still show Clinton with a very healthy lead. Also polls like the recent YouGovUS poll seem to be suggesting that there are a lot less people voting Trump than everyone's assuming. Saw this in a tweet awhile back and thought it was pretty telling:



Married women voting for Clinton - 45%
Married men who know their wives are voting for Clinton - 33%

Had to sort of :lol at that.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1064 on: October 11, 2016, 10:42:37 PM »
I had watched the highlights of the debate a few days ago but only got around to watching the whole thing today, waste of time.
I agree with whoever said Trump's wife looked unhappy, I'm still not sure if it's Ivanka or Melania or Kitana or another Mortal Kombat character name.
I find it a bit odd that the presidential debates were made available in full from official sources like CNN and C-SPAN youtube accounts. In past elections -and this primaries- I used to have to go to a friend with DVR if I wanna watch the debate in full.
Clinton did a good job in appearing disciplined and presidential by comparison, purposely. She avoided interrupting Trump or making snarky remarks or zingers.
I like how Trump carried himself through the taxes question, yep I did that and it's a loophole that Hillary knows about and all her friends and donors use. He didn't dance around or dodge that question and to me it made him look more like the honest Washington outsider he claims to be.
I think there was a bit of entrapment to get Trump riled up by combining two of his least favorite things into one person to ask a question, overweight girls and Muslims :lol
Out of curiosity: why is everybody here so against not voting? what do you do when you dislike all candidates? I'm assuming everybody thinks the lesser of two evils approach is not something that everyone can accept in principle, especially in the current case where it's more like the evil of two lessers.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1065 on: October 11, 2016, 10:49:39 PM »
The presidential candidates are rarely the only thing on the ballot. Not sure of the specifics, may vary by state for all I know, but there could be congressional, senatorial, gubernatorial elections to vote on, and often propositions and referendums.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1066 on: October 11, 2016, 10:53:48 PM »
Of course you could still vote for these other positions, I'm assuming you can do that without voting for a presidential candidate.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1067 on: October 11, 2016, 11:01:35 PM »
I think people who bitch about non-voters would be fine with that. It's the general apathy that they object to. Not the failure to vote for president. Myself, there isn't much I care about that isn't already a foregone conclusion. Rarely anything that would warrant waiting in line an hour. Sometimes there's a proposition I might want to vote for.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1068 on: October 11, 2016, 11:13:00 PM »
Rarely anything that would warrant waiting in line an hour.

Doesn't it only take that long if you go on election day? A lot of people told me early voting is pretty fast.

You reminded me of something my friend Greg from work once told me and he was the first American I talk to about politics face to face, he said who the president is, has never impacted his life in any aspect, ever. Then again he was only 28 when he told me that, but he seemed pretty sure that it's the case for most the people he knows.

I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1069 on: October 11, 2016, 11:34:20 PM »
Trump has come completely unhinged on Twitter, outright attacking Paul Ryan, John McCain, and others.

Really amazing to witness this. Assuming nothing crazy happens with Clinton before Election Day, it really does feel like the GOP have just given up for the most part and Trump is now a rogue agent. What does this party look like in 2018? 2020?

I read this interesting article the other day about how they'll probably carry on as if Trump never happened. Which is an aspect of something I couldn't articulate all too well back in the primaries when I posted here saying that a Trump presidency would at least let the far right voters go through the experience they want to go through and learn from it. I realize Trump personally is not a representation of right wing politics but all his dedicated followers are, or consider themselves to be.
And that's another thing that concerns me and I don't know how to come about thinking of it; Trump supporters are not going away when he loses, I suspect we'll see more calls for secession and random shenanigans of the sort, this time it maybe more serious than ever. I've got nothing to ground these assumptions on except their outstanding passion, I hope I'm wrong. Trump is not helping matters either as every rally I watch for him on youtube he speaks of the possibility of election fraud, asking people to be "vigilant" at their voting locations and gesturing that it's the only way he'd lose.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline TAC

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1070 on: October 12, 2016, 06:01:01 AM »
I think people who bitch about non-voters would be fine with that. It's the general apathy that they object to. Not the failure to vote for president.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I posed the question. Not voting for president. I didn't mean not show up to the polls at all.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1071 on: October 12, 2016, 06:08:37 AM »
Speaking of actually voting... just booked a business trip out of the country on election day.  I could do an absentee ballot, but honestly, I think it's fitting.  Just get the fuck out of here for the shit show that is about to go down on election day. 

Offline TAC

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1072 on: October 12, 2016, 06:27:02 AM »
Where are you going?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1073 on: October 12, 2016, 06:34:48 AM »
Where are you going?

Frankfurt Germany from the 4th-10th of November. 

Offline TAC

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1074 on: October 12, 2016, 06:38:02 AM »
Cool!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline kaos2900

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1075 on: October 12, 2016, 07:10:21 AM »
I don't really know the history of Billy Bush but he seems to be getting a bum deal out of all of this. The dude is getting fired over shit he said 11 years ago. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was held accountable for things I said a decade ago when I was in my early 20's I would be unemployed as well. The hypocrisy in this country around who get's second chances and why just astounds me.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1076 on: October 12, 2016, 07:16:30 AM »

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1077 on: October 12, 2016, 07:41:12 AM »
This goes beyond the diehards, though. Trump never had the minorities. He's losing women and evangelicals. I don't think the party is even close to being able to draw them back to the fold.
I've seen quite a few Republican friends who have said similar, all these people talk about not voting for Trump, but when the time comes, they will.  I'm not sure I believe that, at least not on a large enough scale to have any impact.

And personally, I am fine with the party imploding.  They need to break down to rebuild to be competitive for the POTUS, I am not sure there will ever be another Republican president the way the GOP currently is.

I'm very okay with the party imploding, at least temporarily.   I'd like to see it get back to being "economics for humans", meaning, ditch the social moralizing and get on with what they do best:  fiscal responsibility, common sense programs that help those who CAN'T, not those that WON'T or DON'T FEEL LIKE IT.  Focus on the military (read: government service) as a privilege that we should all partake in, at least for a year or so in whatever capacity we bring to the table, etc.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1078 on: October 12, 2016, 07:42:39 AM »

Had to sort of :lol at that.

I personally laughed at the 17% of men who had no idea.  "Uh, who?  My wife?  Uh..."

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1079 on: October 12, 2016, 07:47:06 AM »
Rarely anything that would warrant waiting in line an hour.

Doesn't it only take that long if you go on election day? A lot of people told me early voting is pretty fast.

You reminded me of something my friend Greg from work once told me and he was the first American I talk to about politics face to face, he said who the president is, has never impacted his life in any aspect, ever. Then again he was only 28 when he told me that, but he seemed pretty sure that it's the case for most the people he knows.

I'm sorry, Progmetty, take this with a grain of salt, but "Greg" doesn't know what he's talking about.  Meaning, whether he realizes it or not, he HAS been impacted, and while I wouldn't say this to his face in exactly the same way, it's people like him that have contributed to the state we're in.  Those that view this as spectacle, and not as something serious, with repurcussions and consequences.   

The U.S. Government, such that it is, DOES have it's charms and does have it's beauty.   The triarch system with it's checks and balances, the interactivity between the branches...  like a three-legged stool, it can't stand if one of the legs - one of which is the President - was missing.  "Greg" needs to get his arms around that. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1080 on: October 12, 2016, 07:54:58 AM »
... but all his dedicated followers are, or consider themselves to be.

I don't think that is at all true, at least it wasn't before this Billy Bush debacle.   There are a reasonable amount of people that are moderates that are "Trump" because "Trump"="Not Hillary".  Please don't get sucked into the overly simplistic "black and white" (or should I say, "Red and Blue") analysis that is tres chic (and so very wrong most of the time) these days.

Quote
And that's another thing that concerns me and I don't know how to come about thinking of it; Trump supporters are not going away when he loses, I suspect we'll see more calls for secession and random shenanigans of the sort, this time it maybe more serious than ever. I've got nothing to ground these assumptions on except their outstanding passion, I hope I'm wrong. Trump is not helping matters either as every rally I watch for him on youtube he speaks of the possibility of election fraud, asking people to be "vigilant" at their voting locations and gesturing that it's the only way he'd lose.

You give the American people - and their attention spans - too much credit.  I think, if Trump loses, you'll see some faux backslapping at how courageous these people were, they'll be some finger pointing (how much depends on how the Congressional races go) and in two years, we'll be back to "Us versus Them" politics as usual.   Some of this aspect to the election is not unprecedented (after Bush's reelection, after Obama's first election and reelection). 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1081 on: October 12, 2016, 07:57:53 AM »
I don't really know the history of Billy Bush but he seems to be getting a bum deal out of all of this. The dude is getting fired over shit he said 11 years ago. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was held accountable for things I said a decade ago when I was in my early 20's I would be unemployed as well. The hypocrisy in this country around who get's second chances and why just astounds me.

I think the worst thing is, he is being fired FOR DOING HIS JOB.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is NOT fucking Walter Cronkite here.  He's a talking head who made his bones on a half hour entertainment gossip show (the very show he was working on while on the bus with Trump).  He was doing EXACTLY what he was being paid to do:  dig dirt on celebrities and pimp it on his show.   

(By the way, anyone else who ACTUALLY heard the tape chuckle at the notion of this huge bus navigating a parking lot and hearing the disembodied voices of Bill Bush and Don Trump talking about "pussy"?   If not for the underlying subtext - which I don't want to minimize or mock - it would be HILARIOUS.)

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1082 on: October 12, 2016, 08:07:02 AM »
I'm very okay with the party imploding, at least temporarily.   I'd like to see it get back to being "economics for humans", meaning, ditch the social moralizing and get on with what they do best:  fiscal responsibility, common sense programs that help those who CAN'T, not those that WON'T or DON'T FEEL LIKE IT.  Focus on the military (read: government service) as a privilege that we should all partake in, at least for a year or so in whatever capacity we bring to the table, etc.

It's an interesting issue. I currently operate in a middle class, white collar, corporate sphere where the majority of people I know (both those voting for Trump and Hillary) consider themselves "socially liberal, economically conservative". Which, as far as I can tell, should be the bread and butter of the Republican party.

But I come from a very low education, blue collar background, where the majority of people who raised me and are around me in my family life are more along the lines of "socially conservative, what does 'economics' mean?"

Trump seems to cater way more to the latter group, where really dubious economic policy exists simply as a tool to promote a socially inclusive agenda, even if the man himself seems to be a "social liberal".

I would say I'm on-board with social liberals about 75% (I have some reservations about a few wedge issues), and I'm on-board with economic conservatives about 50% (I want robust social programs, but let's fix the root causes of waste before we write public universities a blank check, for example). Could a Republican produce a candidate I really like? It's possible. It all depends how they respond to this Trump nightmare.


Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1083 on: October 12, 2016, 08:15:32 AM »
I don't really know the history of Billy Bush but he seems to be getting a bum deal out of all of this. The dude is getting fired over shit he said 11 years ago. I don't know about the rest of you but if I was held accountable for things I said a decade ago when I was in my early 20's I would be unemployed as well. The hypocrisy in this country around who get's second chances and why just astounds me.

I think the worst thing is, he is being fired FOR DOING HIS JOB.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is NOT fucking Walter Cronkite here.  He's a talking head who made his bones on a half hour entertainment gossip show (the very show he was working on while on the bus with Trump).  He was doing EXACTLY what he was being paid to do:  dig dirt on celebrities and pimp it on his show.   

(By the way, anyone else who ACTUALLY heard the tape chuckle at the notion of this huge bus navigating a parking lot and hearing the disembodied voices of Bill Bush and Don Trump talking about "pussy"?   If not for the underlying subtext - which I don't want to minimize or mock - it would be HILARIOUS.)

Agreed.  Billy looks like collateral damage from all of this and I'm wondering if he has a lawsuit waiting.  The guy however, has always been a bit on the creepy side.  I don't think the Trump news is actually anything new for him in reality either.

Offline Chino

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1084 on: October 12, 2016, 08:19:57 AM »
I'm very okay with the party imploding, at least temporarily.   I'd like to see it get back to being "economics for humans", meaning, ditch the social moralizing and get on with what they do best:  fiscal responsibility, common sense programs that help those who CAN'T, not those that WON'T or DON'T FEEL LIKE IT.  Focus on the military (read: government service) as a privilege that we should all partake in, at least for a year or so in whatever capacity we bring to the table, etc.

It's an interesting issue. I currently operate in a middle class, white collar, corporate sphere where the majority of people I know (both those voting for Trump and Hillary) consider themselves "socially liberal, economically conservative". Which, as far as I can tell, should be the bread and butter of the Republican party.

But I come from a very low education, blue collar background, where the majority of people who raised me and are around me in my family life are more along the lines of "socially conservative, what does 'economics' mean?"

Trump seems to cater way more to the latter group, where really dubious economic policy exists simply as a tool to promote a socially inclusive agenda, even if the man himself seems to be a "social liberal".

I've observed this as well with my girlfriend's family. They've cornered the asphalt market in southwest CT. Some do bridges, some do roads, a bunch to driveways, some do commercial lots, etc.. They are all really successful. One of her uncles just bought and asphalt mixer for $1.1M and another bought two brand new tri-axle dumpers for $600K. Neither of them needed to take out a loan for these purchases. They are all hardcore Jesus people (makes me dread the thought of my wedding) as well. With the exception of a select few of them, any conversation with them would make you think the United States was literally about to implode on itself and all 300M+ Americans were about to die in cages at the hands of ISIS. They are all over Trump and act as though he's the second coming of Christ. I really don't understand it. Trump's the guy that's their stuff of nightmares. The guy that contracts them to do $500K worth of work and then only pays then $300K. There's no such thing as a blue collar billionaire. I don't understand their obsession with him or why for a second they think he's going to save them.

The kicker is that they are all having record sales years. They have all had to divert jobs to next spring because there was simply not enough time this summer to fit everything in. They've literally turned dollars away this year because so many cities are spending money and so many businesses are being built. They can't keep up with the demand. Yet, the world is in the shitter and we all need to vote Trump to save us.