Author Topic: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.  (Read 134353 times)

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1120 on: October 15, 2016, 04:25:25 PM »
As if Trumps reactions to the accusers wasn't killing his chances enough, he is now calling for a drug test for him and Clinton??  He's gone full retard.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1121 on: October 15, 2016, 07:25:11 PM »
This week has shown what is wrong with politics on all levels.

The media is totally shameless in its bias.

The GOP candidate is a disgusting human being who is acting like a petulant child.

The Democratic candidate is a disgusting human being who is even more shameless and corrupt than we thought.

People vigorously defending either need a major reality grip (Trump is certainly worse, but I LOL at those who still think Clinton is any good).

Very sad times for our country.  :(

Offline eric42434224

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1122 on: October 15, 2016, 07:42:05 PM »
We need to institute a new "do-over" rule in elections
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1123 on: October 15, 2016, 08:05:09 PM »
We need to institute a new "do-over" rule in elections

Recall on the federal level? Sounds like a good idea.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1124 on: October 15, 2016, 08:11:54 PM »
This week has shown what is wrong with politics on all levels.

The media is totally shameless in its bias.

The GOP candidate is a disgusting human being who is acting like a petulant child.

The Democratic candidate is a disgusting human being who is even more shameless and corrupt than we thought.

People vigorously defending either need a major reality grip (Trump is certainly worse, but I LOL at those who still think Clinton is any good).

Very sad times for our country.  :(

A big hell yeah to this.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1125 on: October 15, 2016, 09:37:59 PM »
I'm writing my own name in.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1126 on: October 15, 2016, 09:39:16 PM »


Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1127 on: October 15, 2016, 09:42:36 PM »
What if I just wrote "The Shmev" and the Majesty logo....

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1128 on: October 15, 2016, 09:44:56 PM »
Leave out the "The" (Shmev doesn't need a "The") and use the 2112 starman pic, and you are good to go. :hat

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1129 on: October 15, 2016, 09:59:36 PM »
Why do you have to complicate things?

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1130 on: October 16, 2016, 03:08:09 AM »
Why do you have to complicate things?

This is a question that should never be asked on a prog site.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1131 on: October 16, 2016, 07:50:48 AM »
 :lol

As disturbing as this whole Trump stuff is this week, the one media narrative I cannot stand is the whole "kissing without consent" thing.  Is everyone going to need written consent now before kissing someone?  What kind of verbal consent is okay and not okay?  And what about non-verbal consent? 

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1132 on: October 16, 2016, 08:28:04 AM »
It's just nonsense. They make themselves look ridiculous saying things like that. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1133 on: October 16, 2016, 08:32:59 AM »
Yep. And to clarify, no, I don't think it is okay to try and forcibly kiss someone like Trump allegedly did on numerous occasions, but the "kissing without consent" narrative is what is bothersome.  I don't think I've ever gotten verbal (or written :lol) consent from any girl I've ever kissed; it all just happened naturally.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1134 on: October 16, 2016, 08:55:17 AM »
There's a whole gray area of the subject that the media intentionally leaves out.

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1135 on: October 16, 2016, 10:40:31 AM »
:lol

As disturbing as this whole Trump stuff is this week, the one media narrative I cannot stand is the whole "kissing without consent" thing.  Is everyone going to need written consent now before kissing someone?  What kind of verbal consent is okay and not okay?  And what about non-verbal consent? 

Do you think it's OK to make a pass at someone just because you feel like it, or feel like they won't mind?

Granted, I what you mean. At one end of the spectrum we have a guy in wire rimmed glasses asking "can I kiss you?" at the end of the date. On the other end of the spectrum, we have a certain red pill culture that believes making uninvited passes at women regardless of whether they're expected or appropriate is OK.

Unfortunately the latter situation is consistent with the Trump audio where he brags about coming on to women who don't want anything to do with him.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1136 on: October 16, 2016, 11:32:52 AM »
Unfortunately there is a lot of gray area between both of those sides, including with Trumps words. Do you know how often men brag about things they want to do because they think it's cool to come off alpha male sounding, but don't actually do the things they claim? Something tells me if there were incidents where Trump made advancements like the ones he claims, someone would have pressed charges long ago. If it did happen, I bet those women were so starstruck to get that kind of attention of a multi-millionaire. Let's use your head and tell me if you think Donald Trump needs to rape or molest a woman to get what he wants. Please. Pay attention the real issues. Now we have women coming out weeks before an election with these ridiculous claims. It's really sad that people are too naive to see that coincidence as being legitimate. That's like groupies coming out years later saying that Motley Crue touched them inappropriately. :lol

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1137 on: October 16, 2016, 12:18:45 PM »
Considering that these women are all vetted and that there are consequences for falsely accusing somebody (especially the guy who sues everyone) I have no problem believing the stories that have come out. It would be beyond stupid for these women to lie about Trump.

 Of course we can talk about the real issues, but that's not gonna help Trump much in my book. He's just bad, from whatever angle.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1138 on: October 16, 2016, 12:38:33 PM »


Do you think it's OK to make a pass at someone just because you feel like it, or feel like they won't mind?
 

When you say "make a pass," do you mean try to forcibly kiss or ask out/flirt with?  Because it's very alpha for a guy to have the ability to roll up to a woman he doesn't know and make a pass at her in the sense of hitting on her or asking her out.  Nothing wrong with that.  And if she isn't having it, then back off.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1139 on: October 16, 2016, 12:47:49 PM »
Considering that these women are all vetted and that there are consequences for falsely accusing somebody (especially the guy who sues everyone) I have no problem believing the stories that have come out. It would be beyond stupid for these women to lie about Trump.

 Of course we can talk about the real issues, but that's not gonna help Trump much in my book. He's just bad, from whatever angle.

I'm not going to sit here and praise the guy. I'm a reasonable man and I do my research so I know there are probably a lot of skeletons in his closet. However, considering who is opponent is, I can't see it possible to say he is worse than she is.

Your reasons for the women not lying about it are illogical. Do you think Trump is going to go after some random woman with a lawsuit if she falsely accuses him of doing something? He's going after Hillary. That's his only concern. He can't stop people from spreading rumors and it's extremely futile to start passing out lawsuits to his accusers. You're right; it's very stupid for them to lie about him. However, we both it's stupid for different reasons I guess. I'm sure these women were dug up from his past by the opposition so maybe they were paid well to create the story. I just know I'm not going to believe these women with their convenient story. It's just more election-based drama that distract people from real issues, which is something that we know Hillary has a less than admirable past with.

Offline antigoon

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1140 on: October 16, 2016, 01:08:51 PM »
If you can't believe women who accuse a man who has openly admitted he's committed sexual assault, who can you believe?

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1141 on: October 16, 2016, 01:47:55 PM »
I'm not saying he has never done anything questionable. I'm talking about these women who suddenly came out of hiding just weeks before an election. That's a bit much to accept just on principle. I'm certainly not swayed so easily.

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1142 on: October 16, 2016, 02:27:04 PM »


Do you think it's OK to make a pass at someone just because you feel like it, or feel like they won't mind?
 

When you say "make a pass," do you mean try to forcibly kiss or ask out/flirt with?  Because it's very alpha for a guy to have the ability to roll up to a woman he doesn't know and make a pass at her in the sense of hitting on her or asking her out.  Nothing wrong with that.  And if she isn't having it, then back off.

The former. What Trump said on the bus with Billy Bush seemed to describe the former. I.E., coming on to someone despite them not wanting it, and then insisting when they made it clear they weren't interested. So, much more your classic workplace sexual harassment than someone misreading a romantic situation.

I'm not that in tune with the media aside from when I watch Morning Joe on the treadmill before work, but I really don't take the media narrative as being a shame on people who have misread romantic situations... and yup, been there myself  :loser:
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 02:38:00 PM by Skeever »

Offline antigoon

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1143 on: October 16, 2016, 03:28:15 PM »
I'm not saying he has never done anything questionable. I'm talking about these women who suddenly came out of hiding just weeks before an election. That's a bit much to accept just on principle. I'm certainly not swayed so easily.
Maybe it's because he denied ever assaulting anyone  on the record just a week or so ago? And these women wanted to speak up after years of silence to prove he was lying? After all, it's not uncommon for SA survivors to never say anything. I'd think that would be even more true when your abuser is powerful/famously vindictive.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1144 on: October 16, 2016, 04:56:34 PM »
I'm not saying he has never done anything questionable. I'm talking about these women who suddenly came out of hiding just weeks before an election. That's a bit much to accept just on principle. I'm certainly not swayed so easily.
Maybe it's because he denied ever assaulting anyone  on the record just a week or so ago? And these women wanted to speak up after years of silence to prove he was lying? After all, it's not uncommon for SA survivors to never say anything. I'd think that would be even more true when your abuser is powerful/famously vindictive.
Exactly. Most sexual assault victims don't say anything. For a wide variety of legitimate reasons. But once one person comes forward, and you're suddenly not alone anymore, it can be a lot easier to do something.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1145 on: October 16, 2016, 11:55:07 PM »
I'm not saying he has never done anything questionable. I'm talking about these women who suddenly came out of hiding just weeks before an election. That's a bit much to accept just on principle. I'm certainly not swayed so easily.
Maybe it's because he denied ever assaulting anyone  on the record just a week or so ago? And these women wanted to speak up after years of silence to prove he was lying? After all, it's not uncommon for SA survivors to never say anything. I'd think that would be even more true when your abuser is powerful/famously vindictive.
Exactly. Most sexual assault victims don't say anything. For a wide variety of legitimate reasons. But once one person comes forward, and you're suddenly not alone anymore, it can be a lot easier to do something.

That's a rational way to look at it, actually. That might be the way of it, but it's just as plausible to see it as opportunism. I think both possibilities hold water. The truth of the matter is that the media is doing everything it can to drag Trump's name through the mud. Undoubtedly he's doing some of that himself, but the media continues to amplify that, getting away from the real issues. Unfortunately we live in a reality tv generation where people are tenacious about their celebrity drama. This Trump nonsense is exactly what they crave. It's hard to get serious news lately, but it's there. People (not all of them) are too lazy to dig for something. They love their front page headlines. They judge the book by it's cover. They're not going to dig through source after source to find what really happened. They're going to see these accusations from women and link it to his eleven year old comments. The story seems to write itself, no? Or it could just be the Clinton campaign being insidious.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1146 on: October 17, 2016, 04:28:58 AM »
Trump LOVED the media when it suited him in the primaries, and when it made him a star his entire adult life.  Now it isn't working totally in his behavior and he cries foul?  Now he is even bashing SNL and saying the election is RIGGED?

Regarding the Women Accusers....Trump opened himself to this by attacking Bill, making sexual assault an election topic, saying the stuff on that Access Hollywood tape, and using the media when it suits him.  Could some of those women be lying?  Sure.  ALL of them?  Not likely.  Trumps own words lend credibility to their case.  Also, all the people they told about the incidents years ago hurts criticism of their timing...Trumps own debate declaration caused the timing. 

I find the scariest thing about Trump is his complete lack of ability or desire to take advice from his advisors when it may contradict his own views, or might suggest compromise or strategic surrender on a subject.  If he can't see the obvious, stay more calm, and work with his advisors in an election, he will be a disaster as POTUS.  He is acting like a vengeful, spoiled, and petulant child these days, that is drowning.  He is panicking at such a massive and public loss, and his wild flailing is preventing anyone from saving him.  Good riddance.  Its embarrasing to our country. This cant end soon enough.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 04:52:33 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1147 on: October 17, 2016, 05:32:03 AM »
That's a rational way to look at it, actually. That might be the way of it, but it's just as plausible to see it as opportunism. I think both possibilities hold water. The truth of the matter is that the media is doing everything it can to drag Trump's name through the mud.
Undoubtedly he's doing some of that himself, but the media continues to amplify that, getting away from the real issues.
Trump did it to himself. The media can't force Trump to talk about the issues, and when Trump has tried to talk about the issues to a mainstream audience he's been absolutely terrible. We know he's a awful person, but we're actually understating that he may be the worst candidate of all time from an "ability to talk policy" perspective.

Unfortunately we live in a reality tv generation where people are tenacious about their celebrity drama. This Trump nonsense is exactly what they crave. It's hard to get serious news lately, but it's there. People (not all of them) are too lazy to dig for something.
I tend to stick with NPR, 538, and some other publications like The Economist. Where should I be going?

They're going to see these accusations from women and link it to his eleven year old comments. The story seems to write itself, no? Or it could just be the Clinton campaign being insidious.

You want me to disbelieve the Clinton accusers because it's "too convenient" but then you want me to believe that the Clinton campiagn made it all up based on some far more nebulous criteria in your head. Don't you see how that's more than a little bit one-sided?

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1148 on: October 17, 2016, 05:44:24 AM »
That's a rational way to look at it, actually. That might be the way of it, but it's just as plausible to see it as opportunism. I think both possibilities hold water. The truth of the matter is that the media is doing everything it can to drag Trump's name through the mud.
Undoubtedly he's doing some of that himself, but the media continues to amplify that, getting away from the real issues.
Trump did it to himself. The media can't force Trump to talk about the issues, and when Trump has tried to talk about the issues to a mainstream audience he's been absolutely terrible. We know he's a awful person, but we're actually understating that he may be the worst candidate of all time from an "ability to talk policy" perspective.

I believe I already said that.
Quote
Undoubtedly he's doing some of that himself

Unfortunately we live in a reality tv generation where people are tenacious about their celebrity drama. This Trump nonsense is exactly what they crave. It's hard to get serious news lately, but it's there. People (not all of them) are too lazy to dig for something.
I tend to stick with NPR, 538, and some other publications like The Economist. Where should I be going?

That's not an easy question to answer. Besides, I wasn't criticizing everyone. My issue is with people who stick to one side of the news and that is sadly many people.

They're going to see these accusations from women and link it to his eleven year old comments. The story seems to write itself, no? Or it could just be the Clinton campaign being insidious.
You want me to disbelieve the Clinton accusers because it's "too convenient" but then you want me to believe that the Clinton campiagn made it all up based on some far more nebulous criteria in your head. Don't you see how that's more than a little bit one-sided?

That's not what I said. The very first thing I said up top was that I agreed with pogoowner that what he said was possible, so how is that asking you to disbelieve Clinton accusers? If anyone is being one-sided, it's you. I haven't seen you say one thing in Trump's favor. You can say whatever you want about his morals, but how about criticizing Hillary's actions over the past years? Until then, don't talk to me about being one-sided, because I'm certainly more apt to listen to reason, but I sure as fuck won't do it if you're not going to do the same yourself.  ;)

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1149 on: October 17, 2016, 05:53:28 AM »
I don't have one good thing to say about Trump.

What should I like about him?

Also not sure you got my first point. Wasn't saying that you didn't say it. Was saying that Trump doesn't have much else to talk about.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1150 on: October 17, 2016, 05:54:50 AM »
Then don't talk to me about being one-sided. :lol 

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1151 on: October 17, 2016, 05:56:52 AM »
So tell me, what should I like about Trump?

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1152 on: October 17, 2016, 06:10:13 AM »
I'll tell you what I like about him. I like that he wants to lower taxes on the middle class and corporations. He wants to cut regulations. I agree with him that we can't afford to be the police of the world. Recent wars have been a mistake. I partially agree with him saying no guns for people on the terrorist watch list. I don't agree that we should build a wall but I agree that something needs to be done with the rampant illegal immigration.

That's just a few things I agree with.

Offline Skeever

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1153 on: October 17, 2016, 07:14:54 AM »
Fair points, for the most part, though I disagree.

Taxes - I'd probably benefit, at least short term, under a Trump tax plan, where I'd probably see an extra couple grand per year (relative to much bigger gains being seen the further you go up the ladder). This is at the expense of education and consumer protections, though. Furthermore, even though a Clinton presidency probably means a very, very modest tax hike for me,  I'm more excited about the programs she wants to fund, such as debt-free college tuition and paid family leave.

Regulations - Not sure what you mean by this, but see above. If Trump's tax plan relies on cuts to the EPA and consumer protections, I'm not sure we're getting a big deal. I've already said in this thread that I believe Trump's proposals to end Wall Street regulations that formed after '08 would be potentially catastrophic, for all of us. 

War - I agree with your sentiment but I don't know if there's a plausible alternative. I thought Trump's foreign police takes during Debate No 2 were dreadful, showing that he did not have a clear understanding of the issues.

Guns - Trump is proposing no guns for people on the terrorist watchlist? Curbing people's Constitutional right based on a secretive, undemocratic, list that no one understands? Isn't that Obama's idea? At any rate, I think it's a bad one, but just bad enough that it'll probably get overwhelming bipartisan support. I would like better gun control but basing that on the no fly list seems like a disaster.

Immigration - We've been here before, I think the problem is overstated.

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Re: 2016 Presidential Race v2.0: Post convention discussion.
« Reply #1154 on: October 17, 2016, 07:31:59 AM »
Fair points, for the most part, though I disagree.

Taxes - I'd probably benefit, at least short term, under a Trump tax plan, where I'd probably see an extra couple grand per year (relative to much bigger gains being seen the further you go up the ladder). This is at the expense of education and consumer protections, though. Furthermore, even though a Clinton presidency probably means a very, very modest tax hike for me,  I'm more excited about the programs she wants to fund, such as debt-free college tuition and paid family leave.

Regulations - Not sure what you mean by this, but see above. If Trump's tax plan relies on cuts to the EPA and consumer protections, I'm not sure we're getting a big deal. I've already said in this thread that I believe Trump's proposals to end Wall Street regulations that formed after '08 would be potentially catastrophic, for all of us. 

War - I agree with your sentiment but I don't know if there's a plausible alternative. I thought Trump's foreign police takes during Debate No 2 were dreadful, showing that he did not have a clear understanding of the issues.

Guns - Trump is proposing no guns for people on the terrorist watchlist? Curbing people's Constitutional right based on a secretive, undemocratic, list that no one understands? Isn't that Obama's idea? At any rate, I think it's a bad one, but just bad enough that it'll probably get overwhelming bipartisan support. I would like better gun control but basing that on the no fly list seems like a disaster.

Immigration - We've been here before, I think the problem is overstated.

I'm not going to delve too much into this right now; I'm sitting at work and actually need to get something done. I will ask how this debt-free college tuition will be funded. Through more taxes? No thanks. I'll take the money in my check so I can continue to pay my bills on time, not lose that money so someone else can get a free ride. If liberals are so adamant about having taxes raised then let them come up with some kind of voluntary tax plan where you can submitted xx% of your check towards a specific fund which will go towards whatever.

War - I don't remember what Trump said about it during the debate except for saying that it was a mistake to go into Libya.

Guns - We basically agree on this one. I think there should be a terrorist watch list but a lot of the people on there aren't really terrorists. I'm sure some of them are on there be cause they caused a disturbance with the TSA. Nothing more.

Immigration - Then we disagree. I'm all for immigration but do it legally. There doesn't need to be millions of illegal immigrants running around here getting free handouts.

Okay, I said more than I wanted to, but whatever.