Official NHL 2016-2017 Thread

[TAC]

That's impressive. I really tried to key in on Lidstrom when the watched the Wings. I just always felt he was overrated. He just never "wowed" me. He was steady, and NEVER seemed to make a mistake. But I just never found him to be a dynamic player. I wonder how their TOI compares. I'm frankly surprised how many points Lidstrom had.

I saw Ray Bourque play and he did amazing things on the ice. Every game, he would have a WTF amazing moment. I guess if someone saw Lidstrom play every night, thay'd feel the same way.

Ray Bourque is a sacred cow here though.

[jingle.boy]

Looks like the NHL didn't track TOI until '99, so a comparison isn't going to help much.  Bourque career avg - 27:37; Lidstrom - 26:54.  Only 5 years of stats for Bourque though - and his last 5 years.  I'm sure he was logging a lot more earlier in his career.

My Mount Rushmore of D-men would be Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom and Chelios (I'm excluding Orr, since he's already on the all-time Mt Rushmore).

[TAC]

My Mount Rushmore of D-men would be Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom and Chelios (I'm excluding Orr, since he's already on the all-time Mt Rushmore).

Hmm, I'd have to think about that.

Witnessing Ray Bourque up close was a privilege. He would knock you on your ass AND take the puck. And score!

Excluding Gretzky, I feel like he was the greatest hockey player that I personally witnessed. I know that sounds ridiculous, but he was amazing.



At first thought, my non Orr Mt Rushmore of Defensemen would be Bourque, Potvin, Stevens, Robinson.

[jingle.boy]

^ All good choices.  I was a little too young to remember Potvin and Robinson in their hey-day.  There was NO ONE more punishing than Stevens.  It's just a shame his hits ended the careers of Kariya and Lindros.  I always have the image of him shouting "you're next" to someone on the Detroit bench after that BRUTAL hit one of the finals against Detroit.

[KevShmev]

It's close, but given the accomplishments, I give the edge to Lidstrom

Norris - 7 to 5 Lidstrom
Cups - 4 to 1 Lidstrom
Appearances - 6 to 3 Lidstrom
Calder - 1 to 0 Bourque
All-star - 19-12 Bourque
Playoffs missed - 1-0 Bourque (this is one you don't want to have the advantage)
Games Played - they are #10/#11 ... edge to Borque (only because Lidstrom lost the '05 lockout season)
Points - 1579 to 1142 Bourque
+/- - 528 to 450 Bourque

As an individual player, I could concede Bourque was better.  But, overall career accomplishments go to Lidstrom.

I might agree, but more accomplished does not always mean better.  Put Bourque on teams as loaded as those Red Wings teams were and he might have won 5+ Cups.

[Snow Dog]

I always have the image of him shouting "you're next" to someone on the Detroit bench after that BRUTAL hit one of the finals against Detroit.

One of the best clean open ice hits I've ever seen. Stevens absolutely laying out Slava Kozlov. Then when Dino Ciccarelli started jawing at Stevens in the pesty manner he was known for, Scott gives him a stare, points a gloved finger at him, and says, "You're next!" Loved it, especially watching that live on TV as a young Devils fan. They just don't hit like that anymore in today's game...

Non Orr Defensemen Rushmore of Hockey? Stevens, Bourque, Robinson, and... Lidstrom, I guess? Honorable mentions to Paul Coffey and Scott Niedermeyer (homer pick, admittedly).

[gmillerdrake]

Yeah. It was awesome how the Blues got completely dicked over by the League to lose Scott Stevens. Just one of the countless other reasons it's brutal to be a Blues fan.

[Snow Dog]

Care to fill me in? I knew he was a Capital and a Blue before being a Devil, but apparently there's a story on how he shipped to NJ?

[Jarlaxle]

I would personally name Lidstrom as the best dman to ever play not named Bobby Orr. He was the Roger Federer of defensemen. Incredible to watch. My Orr-less Mt. Rushmore is Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Bourque, and probably controversial, but Pronger, I absolutely love the way he played. If he continues on as he is, Karlsson will be added to these 4, he's Orr 2.0.

And on the Crosby-top 5 debate....to me, if he's not already 5th, he's 6th. We can't compare stats between players face up, we have to take into consideration just how God damned hard it is to score today, and realise that Sid is STILL 5th all time. Teams aren't relying on 2 or 3 guys to score, they now have 4 lines that are expected to contribute, thus spreading the points around even further. Goalies and coaches are SO GOOD. There is a salary cap designed to make as many teams competitive as possible and the Pens have still won 3 cups in 8 years, and are set up to compete for probably 4 or 5 years more yet. He lost 2 years in the very prime of his career, And to me he is playing the best hockey of his career the last two years.

When all is said and done, it's going to be the holy trifecta of Gretzky, Bobby, and Sid sitting atop the pantheon of hockey.

[gmillerdrake]

Care to fill me in? I knew he was a Capital and a Blue before being a Devil, but apparently there's a story on how he shipped to NJ?

He was 'awarded' to NJ for the Blues signing Brendon Shanahan. Again, the Blues Captain and Star player next to Brett Hull was taken from them for compensation for signing a free agent. It was deemed by an arbitrator a 'fair' deal. Which everyone at the time and now knows was utter BS. He was stolen, plain and simple.

[mikeyd23]

You're just as welcome here as any of us. I just think the top 5 is so tight that it's ridiculous to suggest that Crosby is "without question" better than guys like Jagr and Messier. I would have him in the top 10, but I agree with Jingle that there are more than 4 other players ahead of him at this time. I never said that you can't say one player is better than another if you've never watched them. It just seems crazy to me if you've watched both Jagr and Messier in their prime, and you still think it's not even a question that Crosby is better than them.

We can just agree to disagree and you can go back to enjoying your team's championship 

I know, some comments have just seemed dismissive, I apologize if mine comments were as well. Here's why I put Sid above JJ and Mess, I think shift in and shift out Sid is impacting games more. I know that's loosey goosey sounding and slightly intangible, but that's where I am at. I mean no disrespect to JJ or Mess or Howe for that matter. I'm just getting to the point where I think Sid's there in the debate with those guys falling in that tier of players. The dude is a serial winner.

This completely.  Mikey... No need to take your toys and go home just because we strongly disagree with you on this topic.  And I'm not even disagreeing that Sid is ONE OF the GOAT's.

It's tantamount to the NFL discussion around Terrell Davis.  In 1999, if people had been claiming him to be a Top 5 RB of all time, there were be a lot of disagreement.  Statistically, he'd just come off a 2000 yard season, been MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and had 2 rings.  Pretty good for his first four years - and had he kept it up for another 6-10 years, he would've been a Top 5 of all time.  Alas, injury struck and he was never the same. 

Sid is only 1/2 thru his career.  Impressive as hell at 30 years old, but what he's accomplished so far does not warrant Top 5 GOAT.  Perhaps he's on that trajectory, but so far, it's not a career that I think is comparable to Mess, Lidstrom, Roy, or Jagr .... YET.  When Mess was 12 years into the league, he'd had 6 cups in 7 appearances, never missed the playoffs, and had a Conn Smythe and Hart trophy - while playing 2nd fiddle to Gretz for 8 of those years.  Jagr's first 11 years - 2 Cups, 1 Hart, 5 Art Ross, never missed the playoffs - while playing 2nd fiddle to Mario.

But, neither of us is going to change one another's opinion on this matter - and I'm not trying to change your mind... simply stating the reasons for my position. 

I'm not taking my ball and going home. I just got frustrated yesterday, that's all, I apologize. I get what you are saying, but at the same time I don't...

For Mess, saying that he had 6 cups is an amazing, incredible stat... But no one is going to do that in the salary cap era. Jesus Christ on skates might win 3 in his career in the current system. The salary cap changed that, just as no one is going to touch Gretz points because the game has literally been completely changed by a long list of factors. Sid has 3 cups, and might win more. Sid already has 2 Conn Smythes and 2 Hart's compared to Mess's.

For JJ, is hard for me. I'm a Pens fan that still loves him dearly. He holds a special place in my heart, I used to watch him and Mario play together with my Dad when I was a kid. But in my mind, his skill set and style kinda reminds me more of Ovie than Sid. Winger, offensive minded guy, etc... I'd sit through the argument that Sid is a better slot to slot guy. But like I said, that one is tough for me because JJ carries a lot of sentimental value for me personally.

Good post though man, I see where you are coming from.

Ah, just more proof that Pittsburgh fans overrate their players more than any other fan base.

Is Crobsy awesome? Absolutely.

Is he an all-time great? Absolutely.

Is he a top 5 all-time player?  Uh, no.

Great analysis Kev 

And on the Crosby-top 5 debate....to me, if he's not already 5th, he's 6th. We can't compare stats between players face up, we have to take into consideration just how God damned hard it is to score today, and realise that Sid is STILL 5th all time. Teams aren't relying on 2 or 3 guys to score, they now have 4 lines that are expected to contribute, thus spreading the points around even further. Goalies and coaches are SO GOOD. There is a salary cap designed to make as many teams competitive as possible and the Pens have still won 3 cups in 8 years, and are set up to compete for probably 4 or 5 years more yet. He lost 2 years in the very prime of his career, And to me he is playing the best hockey of his career the last two years.

When all is said and done, it's going to be the holy trifecta of Gretzky, Bobby, and Sid sitting atop the pantheon of hockey.

Great post. 

[jingle.boy]

Care to fill me in? I knew he was a Capital and a Blue before being a Devil, but apparently there's a story on how he shipped to NJ?

He was 'awarded' to NJ for the Blues signing Brendon Shanahan. Again, the Blues Captain and Star player next to Brett Hull was taken from them for compensation for signing a free agent. It was deemed by an arbitrator a 'fair' deal. Which everyone at the time and now knows was utter BS. He was stolen, plain and simple.

Yeah, those free agent rules back then were atrocious.  "Free" my ass - and the Blues had lost 5 first round picks to sign Stevens just the year before.

[Snow Dog]

Care to fill me in? I knew he was a Capital and a Blue before being a Devil, but apparently there's a story on how he shipped to NJ?

He was 'awarded' to NJ for the Blues signing Brendon Shanahan. Again, the Blues Captain and Star player next to Brett Hull was taken from them for compensation for signing a free agent. It was deemed by an arbitrator a 'fair' deal. Which everyone at the time and now knows was utter BS. He was stolen, plain and simple.

Yeah, those free agent rules back then were atrocious.  "Free" my ass - and the Blues had lost 5 first round picks to sign Stevens just the year before.

Yeah, I understand the vitriol, then. I'd be pissed too, but since he brought the Devils three cups, I cant complain. But yeah, that's pretty shitty otherwise... :/

[TAC]

Yeah. It was awesome how the Blues got completely dicked over by the League to lose Scott Stevens. Just one of the countless other reasons it's brutal to be a Blues fan.

You do not disappoint, man. I KNEW this post was coming as soon as I typed Stevens.
 

I agree though.

[romdrums]

That's impressive. I really tried to key in on Lidstrom when the watched the Wings. I just always felt he was overrated. He just never "wowed" me. He was steady, and NEVER seemed to make a mistake. But I just never found him to be a dynamic player. I wonder how their TOI compares. I'm frankly surprised how many points Lidstrom had.

I saw Ray Bourque play and he did amazing things on the ice. Every game, he would have a WTF amazing moment. I guess if someone saw Lidstrom play every night, thay'd feel the same way.

Ray Bourque is a sacred cow here though.

Lidstrom's game was mostly mental.  He was all about positioning and knowing where to be, how to cut down angles, where to pass, etc.  He was never about big hits or flashy plays, because he never had to make those plays.  What made him so great was his consistency and his smarts.  He very rarely ever made a mistake, hence his nickname The Perfect Human.

[gmillerdrake]

Yeah. It was awesome how the Blues got completely dicked over by the League to lose Scott Stevens. Just one of the countless other reasons it's brutal to be a Blues fan.

You do not disappoint, man. I KNEW this post was coming as soon as I typed Stevens.
 

I agree though.

It really sucked. I mean, think of your team....think of your Captain....then think about him being given to the team of the player you just signed as a free agent? That's NUTS! I'm glad I was young when it happened or I might have had a friggin' heart attack with the rageness that would have ensued     But I do remember my Dad being livid about it.


At least Scott Stevens got to win 3 Stanley Cups....that'd have never happened had he stayed a Blue.

[Nick]

That's impressive. I really tried to key in on Lidstrom when the watched the Wings. I just always felt he was overrated. He just never "wowed" me. He was steady, and NEVER seemed to make a mistake. But I just never found him to be a dynamic player. I wonder how their TOI compares. I'm frankly surprised how many points Lidstrom had.

I saw Ray Bourque play and he did amazing things on the ice. Every game, he would have a WTF amazing moment. I guess if someone saw Lidstrom play every night, thay'd feel the same way.

Ray Bourque is a sacred cow here though.

Lidstrom's game was mostly mental.  He was all about positioning and knowing where to be, how to cut down angles, where to pass, etc.  He was never about big hits or flashy plays, because he never had to make those plays.  What made him so great was his consistency and his smarts.  He very rarely ever made a mistake, hence his nickname The Perfect Human.

Agreed. Lidstrom was the best defenseman I've seen play hockey, and is absolutely an all time great at that position.

[jingle.boy]

For Mess, saying that he had 6 cups is an amazing, incredible stat... But no one is going to do that in the salary cap era. Jesus Christ on skates might win 3 in his career in the current system. The salary cap changed that, just as no one is going to touch Gretz points because the game has literally been completely changed by a long list of factors. Sid has 3 cups, and might win more. Sid already has 2 Conn Smythes and 2 Hart's compared to Mess's.

For JJ, is hard for me. I'm a Pens fan that still loves him dearly. He holds a special place in my heart, I used to watch him and Mario play together with my Dad when I was a kid. But in my mind, his skill set and style kinda reminds me more of Ovie than Sid. Winger, offensive minded guy, etc... I'd sit through the argument that Sid is a better slot to slot guy. But like I said, that one is tough for me because JJ carries a lot of sentimental value for me personally.

Good post though man, I see where you are coming from.

This too has a lot of valid points, and you make a good case that I could almost buy.  However, he's sill only about 1/2 way thru his career.  No way anyone would've said Mess or Jagr were Top 5 GOAT with what they had accomplished at the 12 year mark of their career, and I simply think it's far too early to say that with Sid.  You said it yourself... "might win more".  If he doesn't make another cup final (let alone win any more), take home another Art Ross or Hart, will he be Top 5 when all is said and done with his career?

And on the Crosby-top 5 debate....to me, if he's not already 5th, he's 6th. We can't compare stats between players face up, we have to take into consideration just how God damned hard it is to score today, and realise that Sid is STILL 5th all time. Teams aren't relying on 2 or 3 guys to score, they now have 4 lines that are expected to contribute, thus spreading the points around even further. Goalies and coaches are SO GOOD. There is a salary cap designed to make as many teams competitive as possible and the Pens have still won 3 cups in 8 years, and are set up to compete for probably 4 or 5 years more yet. He lost 2 years in the very prime of his career, And to me he is playing the best hockey of his career the last two years.

When all is said and done, it's going to be the holy trifecta of Gretzky, Bobby, and Sid sitting atop the pantheon of hockey.

I'm not sure I can ever get on board with Howe not being part of the hockey holy trifecta.  Sid would have to do a shit-ton in the next 10 years... a few more Hart and/or Art Ross's, along with handful of deep Cup runs/wins/Conn Smythe's.  Given the up-and-comers in McDavid, Matthews, Eichel, Laine, etc... I'm not sure how many more Art Ross/Rocket Richard's there are in his future.

[mikeyd23]

This too has a lot of valid points, and you make a good case that I could almost buy.  However, he's sill only about 1/2 way thru his career.  No way anyone would've said Mess or Jagr were Top 5 GOAT with what they had accomplished at the 12 year mark of their career, and I simply think it's far too early to say that with Sid.  You said it yourself... "might win more".  If he doesn't make another cup final (let alone win any more), take home another Art Ross or Hart, will he be Top 5 when all is said and done with his career?

That's a good question. And you might be right, maybe it is too early in his career. If he never wins another cup or another individual trophy, he'd still easily be in my top 10, maybe not top 5. I'm projecting that won't be the case, but even just with what he has accomplished up until now, in this era, it's freaking incredible.

I'm not sure I can ever get on board with Howe not being part of the hockey holy trifecta.  Sid would have to do a shit-ton in the next 10 years... a few more Hart and/or Art Ross's, along with handful of deep Cup runs/wins/Conn Smythe's.  Given the up-and-comers in McDavid, Matthews, Eichel, Laine, etc... I'm not sure how many more Art Ross/Rocket Richard's there are in his future.

You have a good point about the young talent in the league, it's arguably the best group of young talent since Sid, Ovie, Geno, etc... My rebuttal to that would be this: I would argue Sid is currently playing the best hockey of his career and I see his prime window open (barring injury) for several more years to come. Over the last 12 months Crosby has won 2 cups, 2 Conn Smythes, the RR Trophy, the world cup, world cup MVP, am I forgetting anything?  My point is, I honestly believe this is the best I've ever seen him play.

The only thing I can see slowing him down majorly over the next couple years is injury, which unfortunately with Sid, is a possibility.

[jingle.boy]

If he never wins another cup or another individual trophy, he'd still easily be in my top 10, maybe not top 5. I'm projecting that won't be the case, but even just with what he has accomplished up until now, in this era, it's freaking incredible.

Precisely - on both counts

If he never wins another cup You have a good point about the young talent in the league, it's arguably the best group of young talent since Sid, Ovie, Geno, etc...

I think it goes back even further than that... to the early 90s.  I still remember the top 5 from 1990 entry draft - Nolan, Nedved, Primeau, Ricci, Jagr.  Further down the line you've got Darien Hatcher, Keith Tkachuk, Brodeur, Smolinski, Doug Weight, Slava Kozlov, Bondra, Zubov... jesus, there were 15 players that year with over 1000 NHL games (and another three with over 900).  Add in Lindross, Niedermeyer and Forsberg in '91 + Sundin, Bure, Federov and Lidstrom in '89... holy shit there was some killer talent in the early '90s.

If he never wins another cup
I would argue Sid is currently playing the best hockey of his career and I see his prime window open (barring injury) for several more years to come. Over the last 12 months Crosby has won 2 cups, 2 Conn Smythes, the RR Trophy, the world cup, world cup MVP, am I forgetting anything?  My point is, I honestly believe this is the best I've ever seen him play.

No argument here, but most hockey players peak somewhere between 26-30.  I wouldn't be surprised if this was his peak - but I also wouldn't be surprised if he keeps playing at this level for a couple more years.

[mikeyd23]

Ah, seems we can find some common ground jingle! 


Mario jumping into Sid's pool to celebrate the win with the team!

https://twitter.com/M_Shel6/status/874613748669063168

[romdrums]

Hard to believe it's already been twenty years since this happened:

https://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/06/celebration_to_devastation_red.html

Vladdy was an amazing defenceman.  I wonder how many more Cups the Wings would have won if his career hadn't been ended by that limousine crash.

[jingle.boy]

Hard to believe it's already been twenty years since this happened:

https://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/06/celebration_to_devastation_red.html

Vladdy was an amazing defenceman.  I wonder how many more Cups the Wings would have won if his career hadn't been ended by that limousine crash.

Man, I'd forgotten about that, but as soon as you posted, immediately remembered Stevie handing the cup to him the next year.

[romdrums]

Hard to believe it's already been twenty years since this happened:

https://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/06/celebration_to_devastation_red.html

Vladdy was an amazing defenceman.  I wonder how many more Cups the Wings would have won if his career hadn't been ended by that limousine crash.

Man, I'd forgotten about that, but as soon as you posted, immediately remembered Stevie handing the cup to him the next year.

That was probably my favorite moment as a Red Wings fan, watching Stevie hand the Cup to Konstantinov and skating as a team around the ice with Vladdy in his wheelchair.  Definitely a lot of misty eyes in the room that night!

[mikeyd23]

Crazy parade in Pittsburgh yesterday, a reported 650,000 showed up to celebrate!

[SchecterShredder]

Interesting trade for Montreal. They give up a top end D prospect for a questionable offensive player. And then sign him long term. I'm no Habs fan, but i don't think that worked out well for their depth chart moving forward. Also, they'll need to protect Drouin in the expansion draft whereas Sergachev is ineligible. What do the MTL fans (ok, maybe just fan)   here think?

[Jarlaxle]

Closet Habs fan here....I don't mind the trade. Drouin was on a 60 pt/82 games pace last year, and has all the assets to go 70+, so he's immediately the best offensive player on the team. I expect Galchenyuk is dished for a legit top line center or dman, and then Montreal would end up with an upgraded piece on forward  (Drouin from Galchenyuk) and plug a hole with center or a dman. With Price, the Habs have to be in win mow mode, And this deal  (and subsequent deals) are setting themselves up for that since Sergachev is at least 2 years away from being an impact player.

That being said, I've also read that this means Radulov likely isn't coming back, who was the best player last year, and the Habs still don't have a team nearly good enough to be a legit Cup threat at the moment.

[mikeyd23]

Oh on the Drouin trade. He might help the Habs a bit in the front of the contract, but man that's a long and expensive contract for a player like that. I feel like that will be one of those deals that will be totally overpaying Drouin in the backend of that deal. But I get it, they need someone like him...maybe he'll prove me wrong.

[Jarlaxle]

Oh on the Drouin trade. He might help the Habs a bit in the front of the contract, but man that's a long and expensive contract for a player like that. I feel like that will be one of those deals that will be totally overpaying Drouin in the backend of that deal. But I get it, they need someone like him...maybe he'll prove me wrong.

He's only 22. By the time he's 28 he should be right in the of his prime. Expect two or three 70-point seasons over the course of the contract.

[mikeyd23]

Oh on the Drouin trade. He might help the Habs a bit in the front of the contract, but man that's a long and expensive contract for a player like that. I feel like that will be one of those deals that will be totally overpaying Drouin in the backend of that deal. But I get it, they need someone like him...maybe he'll prove me wrong.

He's only 22. By the time he's 28 he should be right in the of his prime. Expect two or three 70-point seasons over the course of the contract.

Yup, he's young, I'm just not sold he's going to be that good for that long, that's all. Maybe he will be.

What's everyone think of the protected/exposed lists the teams released for the expansion draft? Couple of surprises in there. I'll tell you what, if Vegas plays their cards right, they might be better than 6 or 7 other teams their first year. Looks like they could put together a cast that includes James Neal, Michael Grabner, Marc Methot, Marc-Andre Fleury, Jack Johnson, etc...

[SchecterShredder]

I still think Vegas will be terrible. Maybe not as bad as the last expansion, but i don't expect them to top 60pts. And they play in a pretty tough pacific division.

[mikeyd23]

I still think Vegas will be terrible. Maybe not as bad as the last expansion, but i don't expect them to top 60pts. And they play in a pretty tough pacific division.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they will be great, but depending on how they pick and structure I could easily see them being better than the Canucks, Coyotes, Avs, etc... possibly, at least.

[jingle.boy]

We all knew Fleury would be there, and I'd be shocked if Vegas didn't take him... though, with the Pens protecting 4 D, they've left a lot of quality forwards out there.  The Sens left a few hanging out there -  Methot (over Ceci), Ryan, MacArthur, Burrows.  On quick glance, some other notables include Neal (Preds), Brown (Kings), Sharp (Stars), Plekanec (Habs), Stajan (Flames).  Speaking of Flames, I must've missed the news on the Johnsons-Smith trade.  Not sure what I think about them protecting Smith over Elliott.  Consistency?

Unsurprisingly, a handful of decent forwards available from the Preds, since they protected their top 4 D.  Kings, Devils, Panthers, Isles, Coyotes in that boat too - though, not a lot of depth up front for many those to be overly worried.

Handful of crafty veterans available too... I noticed Boyle (Leafs) and Fisher (Preds).  I have to assume their age+contract value is a deterrent.

I still think Vegas will be terrible. Maybe not as bad as the last expansion, but i don't expect them to top 60pts. And they play in a pretty tough pacific division.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they will be great, but depending on how they pick and structure I could easily see them being better than the Canucks, Coyotes, Avs, etc... possibly, at least.

Can't say I disagree here.  My guess is for them to finish 22nd at best, 28th at worst.  Theoretically, they can get a Top 10 guy from each team.  No other team has a roster filled with Top 10 guys.  At worst, they'll be a very balanced (if unspectacular) team.

[mikeyd23]

We all knew Fleury would be there, and I'd be shocked if Vegas didn't take him... though, with the Pens protecting 4 D, they've left a lot of quality forwards out there.  The Sens left a few hanging out there -  Methot (over Ceci), Ryan, MacArthur, Burrows.  On quick glance, some other notables include Neal (Preds), Brown (Kings), Sharp (Stars), Plekanec (Habs), Stajan (Flames).  Speaking of Flames, I must've missed the news on the Johnsons-Smith trade.  Not sure what I think about them protecting Smith over Elliott.  Consistency?

Unsurprisingly, a handful of decent forwards available from the Preds, since they protected their top 4 D.  Kings, Devils, Panthers, Isles, Coyotes in that boat too - though, not a lot of depth up front for many those to be overly worried.

Handful of crafty veterans available too... I noticed Boyle (Leafs) and Fisher (Preds).  I have to assume their age+contract value is a deterrent.

Yeah, at this point I'm like 99% sure Fleury will be there, I'm assuming Rutherford discussed picking Flower with Vegas and that's why he felt comfortable exposing a couple quality forwards, won't matter if/when they take Flower.

[SchecterShredder]

They'll be fine in net, and maybe on d. I don't think they'll be able to score enough to win. Aside from Neal and Ryan, it's basically going to be a team full of 3rd liners. Also, it'll be all new coaches and a bunch of players that have never really played together. SJ had 39pts in their expansion season and so did the Thrashers. I think 60pts is me being generous.