Official NHL 2016-2017 Thread

[PowerSlave]

https://www.theonion.com/graphic/phil-kessel-rapidly-decomposes-after-wrongly-sippi-56220?utm_content=SP&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing

[Nick]

Chances are in overtime or in game 7 the Penguins would have ended up winning, but it's a damn shame that's not how this was decided and it was instead finished on a clearly terrible job by the ref on the no goal.

Despite the awful ending, it was a great playoffs, with lots of fun hockey to watch. I'm looking forward to the next few weeks as teams position to either trade with Vegas, or with other teams to position for the expansion draft. And then of course the expansion draft itself.

[gmillerdrake]

Nick...are you saying the GW goal by Pitt was a 'no goal'? Don't see how one could think that. There was a sliver of light contact that was initiated by Rinne.

I'll admit i only watched the last 10 minutes of the game so if there was another disputed goal I didn't see it.

[Nick]

Nick...are you saying the GW goal by Pitt was a 'no goal'? Don't see how one could think that. There was a sliver of light contact that was initiated by Rinne.

I'll admit i only watched the last 10 minutes of the game so if there was another disputed goal I didn't see it.

Even watching only the last 10 minutes I don't know how you didn't hear about what I'm talking about.

In the first period Murray made a save but left a rebound that a Predator immediately put in the back of the net. Ref was in the corner and blew the whistle pretty much the moment after it hit Murray and so it was ruled no goal.

[Hyperplex]

Nick...are you saying the GW goal by Pitt was a 'no goal'? Don't see how one could think that. There was a sliver of light contact that was initiated by Rinne.

I'll admit i only watched the last 10 minutes of the game so if there was another disputed goal I didn't see it.

Even watching only the last 10 minutes I don't know how you didn't hear about what I'm talking about.

In the first period Murray made a save but left a rebound that a Predator immediately put in the back of the net. Ref was in the corner and blew the whistle pretty much the moment after it hit Murray and so it was ruled no goal.

It was a pretty bullshit call. The puck was never frozen and was clear in the crease but because Murray was directly between the ref and the puck, line of sight was obstructed and the ref blew the whistle absurdly quickly, nullifying the very obvious goal. Review upheld the whistle blew prior to the puck going in, ergo no goal. I, too, hate it when huge games have a huge moment directly affected by the refs. Should the Preds have been able to recover? Sure, especially on that 5-on-3, but it did cause a huge shift in the game.

[Shooters1221]

Congratz Pens!!! They really battled through some tough injuries and really earned this one. I think Sid looked great the entire playoffs. Fleury and Murray both won this one! Refs could have been better but you gotta score on the 5 on 3 and the breakaway.

[gmillerdrake]

Nick...are you saying the GW goal by Pitt was a 'no goal'? Don't see how one could think that. There was a sliver of light contact that was initiated by Rinne.

I'll admit i only watched the last 10 minutes of the game so if there was another disputed goal I didn't see it.

Even watching only the last 10 minutes I don't know how you didn't hear about what I'm talking about.

In the first period Murray made a save but left a rebound that a Predator immediately put in the back of the net. Ref was in the corner and blew the whistle pretty much the moment after it hit Murray and so it was ruled no goal.

Honestly didn't hear about it but that explains the hostility of the fans at the end.

[mikeyd23]

Eh, the ref lost sight of the puck, technically he did the right thing. They are supposed to blow it dead in that instance per the rules. Bad break for the Preds, but once again, technically, the ref did the exact right thing he was supposed to do.

As a life long Pens fan, I feel like I'm dreaming! Back to back champs!!

This team struggled through so much adversity with injuries and just the amount of hockey they have played over the last two years. Incredible team effort. Makes me proud to be a Pens fan.

Sid with 3 cups and 2 CSs... The legacy and list of accomplishments is just huge. At this point there is no question he is in the top 5 players ever. Period.

Go Pens!!!!

[Nick]

Eh, the ref lost sight of the puck, technically he did the right thing.

No, they didn't. I've had multiple Pens fans admit that the ref blew the whistle way too quick.

And I love how the linesman skated right up to him afterwards and I can only assume said, "You done did fuck up big on that one". But a whistle is a whistle and there is nothing to be done at that point.

[mikeyd23]

Eh, the ref lost sight of the puck, technically he did the right thing.

No, they didn't. I've had multiple Pens fans admit that the ref blew the whistle way too quick.

My understanding of the rule was if the ref lost sight of the puck, he was supposed to blow it dead, maybe I'm wrong. In that situation the ref was in a bad position (the opposite side of Murray) to see the puck, he lost track of it and blew it dead.

[jingle.boy]

At this point there is no question he is in the top 5 players ever. Period.

Really?  Gretz, Howe, Mess, Orr, then Sid?  You'd put him over Mess, Jagr, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Roy.... and that's just some of the modern era guys.

I'm not even sure he makes the Top 10.

And as for the non-goal goal.... I do think the ref was overly quick to blow the whistle.  They often give saves a second or so to ensure they are indeed covered before blowing the whistle.  I guarantee every single one of us has seen many plays where we thought - what the fuck is he waiting for, blow the whistle.  You don't honestly think they blow the play every instant they lose sight of the puck?  There's some leeway a lot of the time, and unfortunately, this one wasn't one of those times, and a brutal error.  Who knows if it changed the outcome of the game, or the series.  My gut tells me Pitt was gonna take this one in the end anyway.

Congrats to the Pens though... very impressive playoff run - AGAIN.  Especially without Letang.

[mikeyd23]

Really?  Gretz, Howe, Mess, Orr, then Sid?  You'd put him over Mess, Jagr, Brodeur, Lidstrom, Roy.... and that's just some of the modern era guys.

I'm not even sure he makes the Top 10.

Without question Crosby is top 5 all time IMO. To me, the top 3 is pretty untouchable. In no order: Gretz, Orr, and Mario (how did you not list him?!).

Howe was great, but I'd easily put Sid before him, same with Mess, and Jagr. Brodeur and Roy are tough because goalies are almost a separate category in my mind, just because evaluating them is so different.

I can't believe I need to convince you he's top 10, top 5 I understand that I might need to make an argument for, but top 10? Easily in the top 10 without question.

And as for the non-goal goal.... I do think the ref was overly quick to blow the whistle.  They often give saves a second or so to ensure they are indeed covered before blowing the whistle.  I guarantee every single one of us has seen many plays where we thought - what the fuck is he waiting for, blow the whistle.  You don't honestly think they blow the play every instant they lose sight of the puck?  There's some leeway a lot of the time, and unfortunately, this one wasn't one of those times, and a brutal error.  Who knows if it changed the outcome of the game, or the series.  My gut tells me Pitt was gonna take this one in the end anyway.

I don't really disagree with any of that. I do think that refs don't follow that rule often, but then again NHL refs are not consistent to call any rule, not a one, so I guess they were just being consistently inconsistent. I'll take it. The Pens played well last night, I feel they would have won that game or game 7 either way.

[jingle.boy]

My bad... I meant "Mario" the first time I said "Mess" above.  The fact you would "easily" put Sid above Howe invalidates your argument - BOTH Gretzky and Lemieux consider Howe the GOAT.  I would think their opinion should carry some weight.

Gretz, Howe, Lemieux and Orr are the Mount Rushmore.  The other five I listed easily have careers greater than Sid's (so far).  Sure, comparing forwards, defence, and goalies against one another is tough.  If we're only talking greatest forwards of all-time, then ok, I'll give Sid top 10, maybe top 5.  Otherwise, the nine players I listed go above Sid without hesitation.  Sid is barely 30 years old, he still has time to end up "better" than some of them, but right now ... no way.

[SchecterShredder]

I would put Sid top 5, but i honestly don't consider thre pre 80's era stats very legitimate.  I mean c'mon, look at the vintage footage? And the stand-up goalies? My div 4 beer league team would be 1st team all-stars in the 40s, 50s and 60s when Howe was scoring 800 goals. Defense was a joke back then too. Gretzky benefited from part of that era as well. No way he scores 200pts in the 90s or later. The game is just too different now and the athletes too good.

[mikeyd23]

My bad... I meant "Mario" the first time I said "Mess" above.  The fact you would "easily" put Sid above Howe invalidates your argument - BOTH Gretzky and Lemieux consider Howe the GOAT.  I would think their opinion should carry some weight.

Gretz, Howe, Lemieux and Orr are the Mount Rushmore.  The other five I listed easily have careers greater than Sid's (so far).  Sure, comparing forwards, defence, and goalies against one another is tough.  If we're only talking greatest forwards of all-time, then ok, I'll give Sid top 10, maybe top 5.  Otherwise, the nine players I listed go above Sid without hesitation.  Sid is barely 30 years old, he still has time to end up "better" than some of them, but right now ... no way.

Greater careers how? Stat-wise? Hard to compare with hockey have such dramatically different eras where the game has changed so much. I'll give you Howe. If Mario and Gretz say that, I'll take their word. My top five in some random order would still probably be Gretz, Mario, Orr, Howe, and Sid. So my point about him being top 5 of all time still stands for me.

I mean Sid isn't 30 yet and this is what he has done:

782 games
382 goals
645 assists
1,027 points

148 playoff games
57 goals
107 assists
164 points

3 Stanley Cups
2 Conn Smythes
2 Olympic Golds
World Cup Winner and MVP
2 Hart Trophies
2 Art Ross Trophies
3 Ted Lindsay Awards
2 Rocket Richard Trophies

..... In the dead puck era of the NHL. It's unreal.

I would put Sid top 5, but i honestly don't consider thre pre 80's era stats very legitimate.  I mean c'mon, look at the vintage footage? And the stand-up goalies? My div 4 beer league team would be 1st team all-stars in the 40s, 50s and 60s when Howe was scoring 800 goals. Defense was a joke back then too. Gretzky benefited from part of that era as well. No way he scores 200pts in the 90s or later. The game is just too different now and the athletes too good.

This guy gets it.

[mikeyd23]

Sorry for the double post. This is awesome:

https://twitter.com/MAlvarezFOX17/status/874116848161370112

"Excuse me, excuse me.... YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!"

[jingle.boy]

but i honestly don't consider thre pre 80's era stats very legitimate.  I mean c'mon, look at the vintage footage? And the stand-up goalies? My div 4 beer league team would be 1st team all-stars in the 40s, 50s and 60s when Howe was scoring 800 goals. Defense was a joke back then too. Gretzky benefited from part of that era as well. No way he scores 200pts in the 90s or later. The game is just too different now and the athletes too good.

There are no words for how much of a fail these statements are.  To the bolded point, then how can you say Sid is Top 5 of any era other than his own?  Certain liberties need to be taken when having any GOAT discussion.  Sure, you put someone of Sid's (absolute/current) talent on a team 80 years ago, and he'd blow them away.  Similarly, take someone of Howe's (relative at the time) talent, and he'd likely skate circles around Sid.  Glenn Hall - 500 straight games.  No goalie can even do 25 straight games nowadays.  You're absolutely right, it's a fallacy to try and make a like-to-like comparison across eras.

To Mikey, I'll just throw a few sample stats from some of the non-mount rushmore guys I listed.

Lidstrom - 7 Norris trophies; one Conn Smythe; 10 time 1st team all-star; 4 Stanley Cups; 20 straight years in the playoffs (#2 all time playoff games played); 2nd in Calder to some guy named Bure
Roy - 3 Conn Smythe; 4 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 3 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #3 all time playoff games played; #2 regular season games played (goalie)
Brodeur - Calder; 3 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 4 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #1 all time games played (goalie); 125 career shutouts
Messier - 6 Cups; 2 Hart; 1 Conn Smythe; 2nd all-time games played; #4 all time playoffs games played
Jagr - 2 Cups; 5 Art Ross; 1 Hart

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

[mikeyd23]

There are no words for how much of a fail these statements are.  To the bolded point, then how can you say Sid is Top 5 of any era other than his own?  Certain liberties need to be taken when having any GOAT discussion.  Sure, you put someone of Sid's (absolute/current) talent on a team 80 years ago, and he'd blow them away.  Similarly, take someone of Howe's (relative at the time) talent, and he'd likely skate circles around Sid.  Glenn Hall - 500 straight games.  No goalie can even do 25 straight games nowadays.  You're absolutely right, it's a fallacy to try and make a like-to-like comparison across eras.

To the same point, how can you say he isn't?

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

Based on that hostile comment, I'll back away from this conversation and simply enjoy the Pens winning back to back championships!

[Rattlehead]

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

Bottom line is they were probably too young to witness those guys in their prime. Seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to argue if that is the case.

[mikeyd23]

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

Bottom line is they were probably too young to witness those guys in their prime. Seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to argue if that is the case.

Yup, that must be it. No NHL players former or current, no professional hockey journalists or anyone close to the sport is saying this stuff about Sid. Just me, just some guy on DTF. I'm the only one 

[Nick]

I have a particularly strong love of this article today: https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2017/6/12/15780034/nothing-new-happened-in-the-hockey-world-just-this-video-of-claude-giroux-and-his-dogs

[mikeyd23]

I have a particularly strong love of this article today: https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2017/6/12/15780034/nothing-new-happened-in-the-hockey-world-just-this-video-of-claude-giroux-and-his-dogs

Personally, this one is working for me today:
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19611090/2017-stanley-cup-finals-sidney-crosby-best-all

[Nick]

I have a particularly strong love of this article today: https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2017/6/12/15780034/nothing-new-happened-in-the-hockey-world-just-this-video-of-claude-giroux-and-his-dogs

Personally, this one is working for me today:
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19611090/2017-stanley-cup-finals-sidney-crosby-best-all

Sorry, link seems to be dead for me.

[mikeyd23]

 

[Rattlehead]

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

Bottom line is they were probably too young to witness those guys in their prime. Seems like a pretty ridiculous thing to argue if that is the case.

Yup, that must be it. No NHL players former or current, no professional hockey journalists or anyone close to the sport is saying this stuff about Sid. Just me, just some guy on DTF. I'm the only one 

Just out of curiosity, did you watch those players in their prime? Or are you just basing this off of other people's opinions?

[mikeyd23]

Just out of curiosity, did you watch those players in their prime? Or are you just basing this off of other people's opinions?

Which players? Howe? Nope! JJ? Yup!

How is that relevant though? Are you saying I can't say guy A is better than guy B if I didn't see guy B play in his prime? So watching old footage, reading articles and opinions, listening to players, coaches, analysts, etc... doesn't mean anything because I'm not old enough to have seen Gordie play?

I guess I'll bow out of the conversation (for real this time) didn't know that was a requirement. I wonder why this discussion exists across generations in every major sport then. Obviously people have been doing it wrong.

[jingle.boy]

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

Based on that hostile comment, I'll back away from this conversation and simply enjoy the Pens winning back to back championships!

I think this statement of mine came across harsher in print than it would have in person.  It's all good man - OPINIONS!!!.  I'm just utterly flabbergasted (and flabbergasted is putting it lightly) that anyone could "easily" call him top 5.  I don't even remember Brian Boucher (looking it up.... a sub .500 career winning percentage who played for 7 teams in a 14 year career - ok, his opinion must be reckoned with), so I'm not even going to put much credence on his commentary.

Is Sid ONE OF the GOAT's?  Absolutely.  When we use that term "of all time", we have to make some kind of comparison across all era's, all positions, and every NHL player.  So, anyone in the Top 10 "of all time" is god-tier.  Which Sid is.  But, there are more than 4 'god-tier' players ahead of him... "of all time".

If we're still here in 10 years, and he's got a few more awards under his belt, keeps up his 1.3 ppg pace, and has some more deep playoff runs, then you can waive that in my face.  Until then, he ain't #5.

I'd call you a homer, but here I am arguing with you FOR Jagr!!!   

[Rattlehead]

Just out of curiosity, did you watch those players in their prime? Or are you just basing this off of other people's opinions?

Which players? Howe? Nope! JJ? Yup!

How is that relevant though? Are you saying I can't say guy A is better than guy B if I didn't see guy B play in his prime? So watching old footage, reading articles and opinions, listening to players, coaches, analysts, etc... doesn't mean anything because I'm not old enough to have seen Gordie play?

I guess I'll bow out of the conversation (for real this time) didn't know that was a requirement. I wonder why this discussion exists across generations in every major sport then. Obviously people have been doing it wrong.

You're just as welcome here as any of us. I just think the top 5 is so tight that it's ridiculous to suggest that Crosby is "without question" better than guys like Jagr and Messier. I would have him in the top 10, but I agree with Jingle that there are more than 4 other players ahead of him at this time. I never said that you can't say one player is better than another if you've never watched them. It just seems crazy to me if you've watched both Jagr and Messier in their prime, and you still think it's not even a question that Crosby is better than them.

We can just agree to disagree and you can go back to enjoying your team's championship 

[jingle.boy]

We can just agree to disagree and you can go back to enjoying your team's championship 

This completely.  Mikey... No need to take your toys and go home just because we strongly disagree with you on this topic.  And I'm not even disagreeing that Sid is ONE OF the GOAT's.

It's tantamount to the NFL discussion around Terrell Davis.  In 1999, if people had been claiming him to be a Top 5 RB of all time, there were be a lot of disagreement.  Statistically, he'd just come off a 2000 yard season, been MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and had 2 rings.  Pretty good for his first four years - and had he kept it up for another 6-10 years, he would've been a Top 5 of all time.  Alas, injury struck and he was never the same. 

Sid is only 1/2 thru his career.  Impressive as hell at 30 years old, but what he's accomplished so far does not warrant Top 5 GOAT.  Perhaps he's on that trajectory, but so far, it's not a career that I think is comparable to Mess, Lidstrom, Roy, or Jagr .... YET.  When Mess was 12 years into the league, he'd had 6 cups in 7 appearances, never missed the playoffs, and had a Conn Smythe and Hart trophy - while playing 2nd fiddle to Gretz for 8 of those years.  Jagr's first 11 years - 2 Cups, 1 Hart, 5 Art Ross, never missed the playoffs - while playing 2nd fiddle to Mario.

But, neither of us is going to change one another's opinion on this matter - and I'm not trying to change your mind... simply stating the reasons for my position. 

[KevShmev]

Ah, just more proof that Pittsburgh fans overrate their players more than any other fan base.

Is Crobsy awesome? Absolutely.

Is he an all-time great? Absolutely.

Is he a top 5 all-time player?  Uh, no.

[gmillerdrake]

I would put Sid top 5, but i honestly don't consider thre pre 80's era stats very legitimate.  I mean c'mon, look at the vintage footage? And the stand-up goalies? My div 4 beer league team would be 1st team all-stars in the 40s, 50s and 60s when Howe was scoring 800 goals. Defense was a joke back then too. Gretzky benefited from part of that era as well. No way he scores 200pts in the 90s or later. The game is just too different now and the athletes too good.

This guy gets it.

I know it's the age old 'generational' debate....it's in every sport. There's no way Babe Ruth is hitting over 10 Home Runs a year off of today's pitching....he just couldn't do it....heck, even Hank Aaron would have a tough time hitting 20+ off of this generation.

Same goes with Hockey. If you Youtube Gretzky's highlight reel of goals near half of them never leave the ice surface....especially in his first few years. The goaltending was atrocious back then. But he was a special player 'in that time' because no one else was doing it or could do it. But I consider what Brett Hull was doing back in the day when he was scoring 80 and 90 goals a year WAY more difficult to do than when Gretzky was doing it....considering the fact that Brett Hull has NEVER scored an empty net goal. He REFUSED to. If he was on the ice with an empty net he assisted the goal...he's been quoted as saying he never wanted to score that type of 'cheap' goal.

Anyway...I totally get the sentiment that Shredder and Mikey are lamenting because for as great as #99 was I personally think the majority of his stats are 'soft' considering if you'd put college players of today in that era they'd have done the same thing. I'm team Mario all the way as far as who I think the 'greatest' thus far has been.

[TAC]

Lidstrom - 7 Norris trophies; one Conn Smythe; 10 time 1st team all-star; 4 Stanley Cups; 20 straight years in the playoffs (#2 all time playoff games played); 2nd in Calder to some guy named Bure
Roy - 3 Conn Smythe; 4 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 3 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #3 all time playoff games played; #2 regular season games played (goalie)
Brodeur - Calder; 3 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 4 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #1 all time games played (goalie); 125 career shutouts
Messier - 6 Cups; 2 Hart; 1 Conn Smythe; 2nd all-time games played; #4 all time playoffs games played
Jagr - 2 Cups; 5 Art Ross; 1 Hart

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

I suppose it's splitting hairs. Sid was/is the best player of his generation. None of the guys you listed can say that. They are all great players. What were those guys' stats at Sid's age?


Let's wait and see how the next few years turn out, but if he continues his current path, he has to be considered better.

[jingle.boy]

Lidstrom - 7 Norris trophies; one Conn Smythe; 10 time 1st team all-star; 4 Stanley Cups; 20 straight years in the playoffs (#2 all time playoff games played); 2nd in Calder to some guy named Bure
Roy - 3 Conn Smythe; 4 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 3 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #3 all time playoff games played; #2 regular season games played (goalie)
Brodeur - Calder; 3 Stanley Cups (5 appearances); 4 Vezina; 5 Jennings; #1 all time games played (goalie); 125 career shutouts
Messier - 6 Cups; 2 Hart; 1 Conn Smythe; 2nd all-time games played; #4 all time playoffs games played
Jagr - 2 Cups; 5 Art Ross; 1 Hart

It's an embarrassment that anyone should have to make a case as to why Messier and Jagr rank ahead of Sid in a GOAT discussion.

I suppose it's splitting hairs. Sid was/is the best player of his generation. None of the guys you listed can say that. They are all great players. What were those guys' stats at Sid's age?


Let's wait and see how the next few years turn out, but if he continues his current path, he has to be considered better.

Lidstrom by far was the greatest D of his generation. Blasphemy to a B's fan, but better than Borque.
Roy/Brodeur are 1a and 1b - the only reason they aren't the greatest of their generation (and the two greatest goalies of all time, imo) is because of the other.
Mess and Jagr - the only reason they aren't is because of Gretz/Mario

Yes, I suppose it is splitting hairs.  I already answered what Mess and Jagr had done at Sid's age; and agree with your last statement.

[TAC]

Lidstrom by far was the greatest D of his generation. Blasphemy to a B's fan, but better than Borque.

Wow, you sure know how to go at a guy.

Lidstrom was NOT better than Bourgue. No way!

[jingle.boy]

Lidstrom by far was the greatest D of his generation. Blasphemy to a B's fan, but better than Borque.

Wow, you sure know how to go at a guy.

Lidstrom was NOT better than Bourgue. No way!

It's close, but given the accomplishments, I give the edge to Lidstrom

Norris - 7 to 5 Lidstrom
Cups - 4 to 1 Lidstrom
Appearances - 6 to 3 Lidstrom
Calder - 1 to 0 Bourque
All-star - 19-12 Bourque
Playoffs missed - 1-0 Bourque (this is one you don't want to have the advantage)
Games Played - they are #10/#11 ... edge to Borque (only because Lidstrom lost the '05 lockout season)
Points - 1579 to 1142 Bourque
+/- - 528 to 450 Bourque

As an individual player, I could concede Bourque was better.  But, overall career accomplishments go to Lidstrom.

Plus, there's this highlight reel gem - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR6ITTkmDqQ