Westworld

[The Walrus]

I have absolutely no idea what Season 2 was about. I watched it all because, not much else going on for me on Sunday nights. But man, that was bewildering. I liked S1 a lot better.

I finally started season 2 about a month ago. We finished episode 4 last night and I'm jumping ship. I'm normally all for super complex story lines with twists and what not but I need to actually care about the characters. I don't care about any of the characters. Season 1 was just more fun and the idea of the hosts gaining consciousness and taking over the park (or maybe the world) was exciting. Season 2 has just bogged everything down in my opinion and is way to complex for no reason. I think the writers should have not waited so long to explain the idea of having your consciousness in the hosts. I think it would have been better to keep it about machines becoming sentient.

Moving on to Castle Rock.

That's such a shame especially considering episode 4 is one of the high water marks of the season... You don't care about any of them? That makes me sad. William is a great character, Bernard is interesting, the Delos family fascinates me, and I genuinely like Dolores... There are some fantastic revelations later on in the season. I hope you come back and give it another chance.

[cramx3]

I kind of agree about the not caring about the characters part.  They are great actors and do a great job, but when you know they are robots, do you really care about them?  I think that's part of the show though, like you question if you should care just like the humans in the show question as well when they are so real and have gained conscious, at what point do they become alive and worthy of actually caring for? 

[The Walrus]

I think that's absolutely one of the points of the show. I personally think they're interesting because they are androids who believe they are real, and we as the audience get to see all sides of it: their creation, their fixing, when they're turned 'off,' them trying to reconcile knowledge of their origins with wanting to be 'real' and organic. I don't think just because they're artificial they shouldn't be cared about.

Hell, that's half of William's arc in season 1. Logan and William contrast each other wonderfully. When they get to the park, William isn't sure what to think of them, much like the audience. Logan treats them like objects, there's no consequence, no reason to care about them (think about how he yells at William to stop caring about Dolores). Then William falls in love with Dolores... and then he goes down the rabbit hole of taking over Delos, running fidelity tests on James Delos, and eventually SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS having the tests run on himself SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS.

[Chino]

I have no issues with caring about the hosts. Ever see Ex Machina? By the end, everyone cared about Ava. I don't see how this is a whole lot different.

I also don't feel like I need to "care" about anyone. I really didn't care about anyone in Breaking Bad [SPOILERS AHEAD] except for Jessie, but that was still a hell of an emotional ride. And I think, like Westworld, it kind of challenges you to see what/who you side with. Walter White became a huge asshole. He sold his family down the river, got his brother in law killed, and ruined hundreds of lives in the process. Yet somehow, even up until the final minutes of the series, we were all still kind of rooting for the guy. I doubt many people were "happy" to see him die at the end.

[kaos2900]

I cared about the Dolores in the first season. Maybe my issue with season 2 is that there isn't clear cut main character. I may come back and finish it at some point but all I know is that I've dozed off during every episode and for me that means I really don't care about it.

[cramx3]

I cared about the Dolores in the first season. Maybe my issue with season 2 is that there isn't clear cut main character. I may come back and finish it at some point but all I know is that I've dozed off during every episode and for me that means I really don't care about it.

Show just isnt for you and that's fine then.  I think your feeling of losing interest during season 2 isn't an odd case either.  Seems a lot of people lost interest in the show as the storyline got more and more convoluted.  I feel like I am kind of on the edge.  I expect to keep watching, I am intrigued by it, but it is slowly becoming a bit too much for me as season 2 went on.

[Chino]

I cared about the Dolores in the first season. Maybe my issue with season 2 is that there isn't clear cut main character. I may come back and finish it at some point but all I know is that I've dozed off during every episode and for me that means I really don't care about it.

Show just isnt for you and that's fine then.  I think your feeling of losing interest during season 2 isn't an odd case either.  Seems a lot of people lost interest in the show as the storyline got more and more convoluted.  I feel like I am kind of on the edge.  I expect to keep watching, I am intrigued by it, but it is slowly becoming a bit too much for me as season 2 went on.

I really liked season 2, but I was only able to tell what was going on because I watched most of the episodes a second time. In that regard, it's kind of irritating because I think a show should be straight forward enough to understand on the first run through. Putting in nuggets for a second watch is one thing, making it super complicated to follow can suck at times. There were moments in the season where if you missed a single sentence, you could be completely lost.

Take on the topic from the director.

https://www.businessinsider.com/hbo-programming-boss-will-not-apologize-for-westworld-being-confusing-2018-7

Critics, fans, and this very website criticized season two of "Westworld." It got off to a good start, but didn't live up to what the first half of the season promised. By the end of the season, many people had no idea what they had just watched — even people like me who watched the episodes multiple times.

But HBO's programming boss doesn't seem concerned, even though the show's ratings dropped throughout the second season .

"I wouldn't agree that the backlash was widespread," Bloys said. "The people who love it really love it, even the people who dislike it feel the need to discuss it and talk about it, and let you know they dislike it, and debate. And for a show to arouse that kind of feeling, that's what we want."


Bloys also said the show is "not for casual viewers, it requires your attention." He added that creators Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy "like to challenge their viewers and many feel rewarded by that. It's a unique show, and that's what we're looking for."

[The Walrus]

I don't watch many TV shows, I keep my list of stuff I watch nice and short and simple, so I actually prefer them taking a cerebral approach and requiring lots of focus and concentration and maybe even repeat viewings. I watched each episode of season 2 several times but that's also because I don't have cable so my choices for watching things are limited, but a big part of that is I LOVE shows that leave me hanging with lots of questions to think about, and then I spend a lot of time on YouTube finding the best and most intelligent analyses of episodes (I do this with Game of Thrones too even though its 'questions' are far less complicated).

[cramx3]

I really liked season 2, but I was only able to tell what was going on because I watched most of the episodes a second time.

Not only did I watch each episode twice, I watched youtube videos explaining episodes as well as theories throughout the season.  I think it's a love hate thing for me.  I love shows that you'll want to watch a second time to catch things and have such crazy details of a story to discuss throughout the week between episodes, but also you want the story to actually make sense and be easy to understand as well so you hate when it's too difficult to understand.

[gmillerdrake]

My largest 'complaint' about season two was the dramatic reversal in Dolores' character. I understand 'why' she was the way she was....I'm just not sold on the way it was portrayed. The all out blood lust she had was just hard to 'believe' after a whole season of her being so caring and 'emotional'. I really had a hard time believing her character.

I really liked everything else in the season though. Especially the William story line.

[Chino]

My largest 'complaint' about season two was the dramatic reversal in Dolores' character. I understand 'why' she was the way she was....I'm just not sold on the way it was portrayed. The all out blood lust she had was just hard to 'believe' after a whole season of her being so caring and 'emotional'. I really had a hard time believing her character.

I really liked everything else in the season though. Especially the William story line.

I kind of felt the opposite. I thought Dolores' change in character was completely justified given how much information was made available to her all at once combined with the reveries of all the terrible things that happened to her. I also always wondered if Ford was tweaking her emotions to make her more aggressive in an effort to hasty take down management from the inside.

I actually felt like Maeve's whole arc seemed more far fetched and harder to believe.

[The Walrus]

My largest 'complaint' about season two was the dramatic reversal in Dolores' character. I understand 'why' she was the way she was....I'm just not sold on the way it was portrayed. The all out blood lust she had was just hard to 'believe' after a whole season of her being so caring and 'emotional'. I really had a hard time believing her character.

I really liked everything else in the season though. Especially the William story line.

I kind of felt the opposite. I thought Dolores' change in character was completely justified given how much information was made available to her all at once combined with the reveries of all the terrible things that happened to her. I also always wondered if Ford was tweaking her emotions to make her more aggressive in an effort to hasty take down management from the inside.

I actually felt like Maeve's whole arc seemed more far fetched and harder to believe.

Not only that, but Dolores had the Wyatt code in her this entire time - ever since Arnold put it in her. My belief is that Wyatt's lust for vengeance, his personality and characteristics, override any empathy or compassion on the Dolores side of her mind, if we want to compartmentalize.

I too found Maeve's arc farfetched if only because she's intelligent enough to try to take control of her own destiny and yet she's actively pursuing an artificial background that she knows is artificial as if that's her calling, her destiny. And to some extent, that's true - after all she was originally programmed to be that kid's mother, but that was long ago, she's been reprogrammed, and she understands the kid was reprogrammed to believe someone else is her mom. So I don't quite understand her fascination with being 'independent' while at the same time being tied to this metaphorical chain.

[cramx3]

Yea, Dolores was merged with Wyatt and that's what made he go gun crazy.

[gmillerdrake]

I understood that Dolores had merged with Wyatt and that she had this massive influx of reveries and memories etc etc. I 'get' the direction her character took.....I just didn't buy the presentation. I guess what I'm saying is that I didn't like the way Evan Rachel Wood portrayed it....either by direction or by her own interpretation. I thought it was very 'flat' and it was just 'blah' for me.

whereas Thandie Newton did a good job with Maeve's character I thought. That story line in general was odd given some of the reasons stated already but I thought the acting was a bright spot there.

[Chino]

I'll agree with that

[The Walrus]

I understood that Dolores had merged with Wyatt and that she had this massive influx of reveries and memories etc etc. I 'get' the direction her character took.....I just didn't buy the presentation. I guess what I'm saying is that I didn't like the way Evan Rachel Wood portrayed it....either by direction or by her own interpretation. I thought it was very 'flat' and it was just 'blah' for me.

whereas Thandie Newton did a good job with Maeve's character I thought. That story line in general was odd given some of the reasons stated already but I thought the acting was a bright spot there.

Yeah, that's fair. What about her reaction when Teddy offed himself? I thought that was genuinely fantastic.

[gmillerdrake]

I understood that Dolores had merged with Wyatt and that she had this massive influx of reveries and memories etc etc. I 'get' the direction her character took.....I just didn't buy the presentation. I guess what I'm saying is that I didn't like the way Evan Rachel Wood portrayed it....either by direction or by her own interpretation. I thought it was very 'flat' and it was just 'blah' for me.

whereas Thandie Newton did a good job with Maeve's character I thought. That story line in general was odd given some of the reasons stated already but I thought the acting was a bright spot there.

Yeah, that's fair. What about her reaction when Teddy offed himself? I thought that was genuinely fantastic.

Her best scene of the season....and honestly, I don’t know why they couldn’t have injected more moments like that....where the Dolores from last season broke through more. They tried in the couple scenes with her Dad but they didn’t feel as authentic as the Teddy scene.

[MirrorMask]

Since Westworld is not (yet?) massively widespread and a cultural phenomenon like Game of Thrones, I resisted watching it when it was airing, and watched it all in a row (one episode per day.... that's a binge for me).

Well.... right now I have a gigantic WTF about the season. I guess a rewatch after some reddit explanations is due, I'm still not sure if it's just me who didn't get it, or the show itself that turned a bit into a clusterfuck.

Season 1 was messy with the timelines too, but it paid off nicely; you kinda realize in retrospect how young William was never to be seen in the present and how it suddenly all became clear. That's how twists are supposed to be... "d'uh, of course Bruce Willis was dead, no one was talking to him!!!", not "...the hell I've just seen?"

It'll take me a long time to figure out the proper timeline for the action in the Mesa, when the Charlotte switch happened, and the post credit scene. Also, why Dolores cannot die (because she turned off her mortality sensors) until the point where she can? all it takes is an headshot even for hosts who "awakened" and therefore shrugged off wounds in other parts of the body?

Some random thoughts:
- Not sure how much William is actually a good character and how much Ed Harris sells the magnificent hell about it ("You talk so much about death and you didn't recognize it was sitting across from you the whole time" is a badass line)
- Maeve kicked all kind of asses and his story was poignant
- Best "filler" episode in the history of television: the Akecheta one
- Nice and pleasant surprise to have Anthony Hopkins back (not sure how much it was publicized, I was sure to have read he signed on for only one season)

[Indiscipline]

- Best "filler" episode in the history of television: the Akecheta one

I agree, in fact it may be Season 2 best episode altogether.

[gmillerdrake]

- Best "filler" episode in the history of television: the Akecheta one

I agree, in fact it may be Season 2 best episode altogether.

Agreed

[The Walrus]

My favorite episode is still episode 4, if only for the scenes with William and James Delos. The impact on the story, the differences each time we revisit James with an ever-aging William, the acting, my god, I hope someone wins an Emmy for those performances. I love how much that added to both of their characters. And when James glitches out, that's some heavy stuff.

The showrunners (Nolan and Joy) uploaded a video that was nearly half an hour long, if I recall correctly, just discussing the cinematography of those scenes and the subtle changes they made each time, like slightly raising and lowering the camera angels when they focused on William and James (and changing it with each scene). It's fascinating stuff for someone like me who knows nothing about television/film production.

EDIT: Here it is. It's really good.

[Chino]

My favorite part of season 2 was the running of the bulls seen in the lab. That was cinematic perfection IMO. Doesn't get much more entertaining than that.

[SoundscapeMN]

bump.

Season 3 teaser, coming in 2020. Aaron Paul 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJwhVX7yas

[MirrorMask]

Gotta rewatch season 2 sometime this summer.

I hope the show will follow the pattern of Mr. Robot - after a fantastic season 1 and an indulgent, introspective, cerebral second season, it will come back to fire on all cylinders for season 3.

[ariich]

That's a great description, MM. I've loved both season 2s (Mr Robot especially, Westworld mostly) but they were definitely more indulgent and at times confusing (particularly WW). In Mr Robot it ended up working really well to set up season 3 which was much more hard hitting. So yeah I agree, hoping for something similar with Westworld.

[Phoenix87x]

If it didn't have Westworld written on it, I would have had no idea that it had anything to do with Westworld. I'll check it out when it releases.

[The Walrus]

I'm sure we'll see more of the park. While the trailer for season 3 definitely looks like Futureworld, the end of season 2 implied there's still a lot more to be seen in the Westworld park.

I'm one of the few people who enjoyed season 2 quite a bit, actually I liked it more and more as it went on. I don't like Maeve much as a character, though (for several reasons). Season 2 has one of my favorite moments of television ever, and that's the fidelity test with James Delos and the Man In Black, I think that's episode 4. Stunning.

[cramx3]

If it didn't have Westworld written on it, I would have had no idea that it had anything to do with Westworld. I'll check it out when it releases.

Same but when I realized that was Aaron Paul I was like wtf (I had heard he would be in the next season).  I like the show, but I think it's starting to lose me as last season went on.  If it gets a bit more consistent with the story telling that is a bit easier to follow, I would enjoy it.  That teaser definitely looked cool, but also didn't make me think it would be a better Westworld.  I'll watch for sure though.

[Phoenix87x]

Loved Season 1
Hated Season 2
Cautiously optimistic for Season 3

[kaos2900]

Loved Season 1
Hated Season 2
Cautiously optimistic for Season 3

This. I never even finished the second season yet.

[The Walrus]

Loved Season 1
Hated Season 2
Cautiously optimistic for Season 3

This. I never even finished the second season yet.

I recommend you do, but again, I'm in the minority that loves season 2 in a big way. If you liked the fidelity test with James Delos and the Man In Black in episode 4 - if you made it that far - then stick around for the end. When it wraps up in the last couple episodes, it's a doozy.

[ariich]

Season 2 has one of my favorite moments of television ever, and that's the fidelity test with James Delos and the Man In Black, I think that's episode 4. Stunning.

Goddamn that scene (spread across the episode) was so ridiculously good. I get chills just thinking about it.

I disagree about Maeve though, she's awesome.

And I really need to re-watch season 2 at some point, to try and get my head around it more. Maybe closer to season 3 airing.

[MirrorMask]

Season 2 has also the best "filler" episode ever, the detour following the story of the indian (forgot his name at the moment). Nothing in TV made with the purpouse to space out the story and add up to the count of the episodes was so beautiful.

[ariich]

Given how much Westworld costs to make, I'm 99% certain that episode wasn't just to up the episode count. I agree though, it was fantastic.

[The Walrus]

Whoa, hold up - the Akecheta episode (Kiksuya, episode 8) was definitely NOT filler. It shows that Akecheta is more than a token Native American host; he was one of the very first hosts to gain consciousness, which was completely unintentional. He went nine freaking years without a single update, watching and learning and uncovering the horrors of the park. I need to watch the whole season again because my memory on the particulars of the plot is hazy by now, but there's a lot more to his character and that episode, it's worth diving into again. Yeah, a Westworld watch is definitely on the calendar now...