Westworld

[cramx3]

I think the talk about William's wife and the MIB's talk about his wife has made the connection that they are the same to me.

Interesting idea to think Ford is Arnold's Bernard.  I don't think I'd like that to be the case though.

[Jester]

I think the talk about William's wife and the MIB's talk about his wife has made the connection that they are the same to me.

Interesting idea to think Ford is Arnold's Bernard.  I don't think I'd like that to be the case though.

Obviously I already mentioned some reasons for Logan.  TBH, they both have clues and it would be interesting whichever one it may (or may not) turn out to be.

One thing I had a problem with was MIB said his daughter told him the wife killed herself because he was a terror to live with.  That doesn't match with William's personality presented thus far, but it sounds like a perfect fit for Logan.  So perhaps the finale will show why William went from a "sweetheart" to a "terror". 

BTW, when I think William, I think Always Sunny in Philadelphia guy.  Maybe that's what he turned into and his wife constantly got the fork.

The hard part I have with MIB being Logan is his mention of killing Maeve and his kid as a test.  Actually, just reconciled it.  He wasn't seeing if he could kill somebody.  Logan could obviously do that.  He was seeing if he could feel something (and he didn't).  Maybe that's his terror streak.  He is and always has been a psychopath.  He can't help it.  He tries to feel love and understanding for his wife, but it is a ploy, not real.  So he came back.  He figures if the maze can turn a robot more human, then perhaps it can turn a less-than human more human.  He needs to shock the feelings into his system.  Obviously killing somebody is quite the test to bring out raw emotion.  But he can't do it in real life (not because it would hurt him emotionally, but he'd go to prison).  That's why as far back as 30 years ago, he was using Westworld in the hopes that it would stir some human emotion out of him without creating criminal jeopardy.  But it still failed with even the worst killing possible he could think of:  an innocent woman and her child.  He felt nothing, but it turned Maeve "human" or at least "conscious" which is another kick in the teeth for him.

Now there is talk about the maze making the "guest" vulnerable to real harm.  So now maybe he want to put himself not in the position of killer, but in jeopardy of being killed in hopes that it will kickstart his emotions.

Again, all of this is totally out of left field and I'm not going to rewatch the season again until after the finale, so I can't correct my first time too casual viewing experience.  In a way, it is more fun for me this way because it allows more of my own creativity instead of detective work.  I'd never sit down and do the Anagram thing with bernard / arnold or even the Gus Lives thing with Better Call Saul.  I've never been into those types of clues, even if they are legitimate.

[cramx3]

So perhaps the finale will show why William went from a "sweetheart" to a "terror". 

I kind of mentioned it in another unrelated post in this thread that I thought MiB is the only character on the show to have a real arc this season, where we see his character change.  That is assuming he is William, but I think we've been seeing William slowly go "bad" although I'm not entirely sure he is bad, but lose those morals had when he first entered the park.  I also think the finale will show something that happens between him and Logan that changes him.

[Chino]

So perhaps the finale will show why William went from a "sweetheart" to a "terror". 

I kind of mentioned it in another unrelated post in this thread that I thought MiB is the only character on the show to have a real arc this season, where we see his character change.  That is assuming he is William, but I think we've been seeing William slowly go "bad" although I'm not entirely sure he is bad, but lose those morals had when he first entered the park.  I also think the finale will show something that happens between him and Logan that changes him.

William and Logan just made up and had a moment after both of them acting dickish toward each other. The 30 year event will be Maeve summoning all the hosts in storage. Clementine coming back under Bernard eluded to that. Maeve wants an army, and the hosts in storage are already in formation and awaiting orders. They will tear upwards through the building, and it will explain why the office was destroyed when Bernard went down there. The hosts Maeve summons in the park will kill a bunch of visitors, Logan included. William will flip and go from white hat to black hat. William becomes the Man in Black

[Jester]

It can be as simple as he kills Logan to protect Dolores.  He'd see Logan every day of his life in his wife, Logan's sister.

Here's another thought.  MIB talks about how he saved the park 35 years ago from Arnold trying to destroy it.  Well, Arnold is trying to destroy it posthumously through his creations.  In particular, Dolores (since we now know it was Arnold talking to her, not Bernard).  The fastest way to kill it would be to sully its reputation (massacre) and kill the (remaining) creator (Ford).  So maybe he saves Westworld by killing Dolores to save Ford (35 years ago).  And that messes him up.  Over the last 35 years, he realizes he made the wrong choice and is coming back to finish Arnold's job (destroying the park/tech).

So, I'm not really disagreeing with you.  Just having fun running out tangents and talking about it with others.

Now here is a thought in the Logan direction.  Westworld employees have talked about "the real purpose" of the hosts.  Now when you have artificial intelligence robots, the first go to is "military uses".  That is a common theme in these types of stories.  But I really don't see any lead up to that.  Maybe it isn't about just rich people having a unique vacation.  Maybe this is actually a unique therapy. 

People that have the urge to kill, but haven't actually done so can come to Westworld and hopefully release the building tension.

People that have rape fantasies can indulge them without harming "real people".

And in Logan's case, he's knows (but doesn't admit to others) that he's emotionally messed up.  And his shrink suggested he find himself in Westworld.  He becomes part owner so that he can go beyond the standard guest in terms of privileges.  He has some small degree of success with his visits.  He isn't fixed, but it takes away some frustration.  His sister is marrying somebody he likes, but sees him struggling with a different problem (assertiveness, standing up for himself, etc, almost the reverse of himself).  He might not care enough to help, but this is his future brother-in-law, so he's going to fix him.  He brings him to Westworld hoping it will help William the way it helped him.  But maybe he helps save the park by killing William.  That was a real person.  So now Westworld is ruined for him and he can never go back.  When he goes back to real life (and his family) his terror tendencies build up and reveals itself again to the "real people" he loves (but can't truly care for).  That's why his daughter had to tell him he caused the wife's suicide.  He is such a psychopath, he doesn't even put it together until somebody else he "loves" tells him.  So back to Westworld as MIB.

Honestly, I think both can be done in a very compelling way.  Or we are both wrong and maybe the real answer will be even better.

[Jester]

William and Logan just made up and had a moment after both of them acting dickish toward each other. The 30 year event will be Maeve summoning all the hosts in storage. Clementine coming back under Bernard eluded to that. Maeve wants an army, and the hosts in storage are already in formation and awaiting orders. They will tear upwards through the building, and it will explain why the office was destroyed when Bernard went down there. The hosts Maeve summons in the park will kill a bunch of visitors, Logan included. William will flip and go from white hat to black hat. William becomes the Man in Black

Again, I really did a bad job this season of TV watching (almost like I've been going through the motions of watching instead of enjoying), so I hardly stand behind this as I pieced it together almost in my subconscious than actually through intense observation, but I thought there were about 4 major timelines going on.
1.  The creation of Westworld, testing, Arnold-Dolores sessions, Dolores kills Arnold, the big massacre with Teddy
2.  William and Logan's visit a few years later.
3.  MiB come back a year or two prior to the present and kills Maeve and her kid
4.  Present with MIB and Maeve coming into her own.  Dolores revisiting timeline 1 in flashbacks that are real to her and is redoing the maze run.  She's physically doing it, but her mind's eye is playing back the previous timelines to her (and her only)

There are quite a few themes going on that I haven't really thought how they would work in with the other themes closing.  The company spying on the park.  Maybe that is just the company working for MIB (the owner via stock).

[cramx3]

So perhaps the finale will show why William went from a "sweetheart" to a "terror". 

I kind of mentioned it in another unrelated post in this thread that I thought MiB is the only character on the show to have a real arc this season, where we see his character change.  That is assuming he is William, but I think we've been seeing William slowly go "bad" although I'm not entirely sure he is bad, but lose those morals had when he first entered the park.  I also think the finale will show something that happens between him and Logan that changes him.

William and Logan just made up and had a moment after both of them acting dickish toward each other.

Cool theory and idea.  Makes sense, I just didn't read their make up as an actual ending towards their feud. 

[ariich]

Interesting, I don't agree at all, I'm loving the characters stories in this show. Bernard and Maeve in particular, and I'm really interested in (if the theories are correct) what happens to William.

I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with my point or the article, but I didn't mean to say the characters aren't interesting, they are.  But they haven't built any character up really to give an emotional feel for.  I attributed that to most of the characters not being human, but I do also feel the show hasn't focused on developing a lot about those characters so that you, the viewer, actually cares about them.  For me, I dont care if Maeve dies (or put in cold storage) because she isn't real.  MIB/William is the one person I can say I do have some emotional attachment towards since he has shown that he has real feelings and real struggles that he is dealing with in both timelines. 

Ah, well see, I think the difference is that I do care about those characters regardless of the fact that they are not human. And it feels to me that this is one of the key themes in the show.

Totally, which is why I mentioned my feelings kind of parallel what was going on with William in the last episode.  Which is a very interesting take on the show when you think about it.  It makes you question morality both in the show, and in real life.  Like why do I not care about the robot characters but you do?  Why does William care but Logan does not? 

Good thoughts, and yeah definitely an interesting dynamic in terms of how different viewers react and see the characters.

[orcus116]

That was absolutely stellar.

[sylvan]

I'm already looking forward to watching the finale again, as well as the whole season. Just an amazing episode.

[gmillerdrake]

Holy  that was awesome!

[Cyclopssss]

Not the ending I was expecting! 

[faizoff]

Unbelievable finale, I'm definitely staying out of the speculation next time. A lot of the major stuff was correctly guessed on the several forums I see.

[gmillerdrake]

I havent rewatched and paused it yet, but I'm thinking I saw Elsie in that crowd of hosts at the end who were surrounding the town. She had her hair down and she was firing a lever action rifle. She was the only one who's face they lit up with the moonlight.

[gmillerdrake]

Also, it appears as though the two techs that were so incompetent and helping Maeve the whole time were actually 'in on' the whole new programming of 'escape' that she had. When the tech handed her the location of her daughter in the elevator, he had that look of 'what will she do' with that information. To me it seems that was going to be the test all along, if that connection and emotion of her 'daughter' would overwhelm and overtake the drive to escape.

And, that was a cool reveal about the other worlds that are in the park.


I'm guessing Logan died when William sent him off?

[kaos2900]

Amazing finale! Can't wait until next season. My uncle watched the old movie and mentioned that there were 3 parks in the movie so I'm glad they brought that over so that they can expand even further. Ford was one of the best characters I've seen in a show. I'll definitely be re-watching this season prior to season 2. I thought Logan was going to be the MIB but having it be William was a shock.

[cramx3]

My immediate thought was, "was that really ford in the end or did he make a robot of himself?"

Awesome show.  I definitely want to do a rewatch from the beginning knowing what I know now.

[Jester]

Hmm.  I'm not as awe-struck as most seem to be with the Westworld finale.

[gmillerdrake]

My immediate thought was, "was that really ford in the end or did he make a robot of himself?"

Yeah. Me to. That host he was making could have been 'him'. He just seems like the type of person who wouldn't just give up everything .... all the control and what not.....just like that.

Else is still out there and that security guy, Ford could have easily brought them on board his game and scheme.

The possibilities are endless as to where they can go. I read they have 5 Seasons mapped out.

[cramx3]

I read they have 5 Seasons mapped out.

Wow, that's surprising.  I honestly thought this season would come to an end and it didn't so maybe there really is a bigger plan for this show than I had thought.

[gmillerdrake]

I read they have 5 Seasons mapped out.

Wow, that's surprising.  I honestly thought this season would come to an end and it didn't so maybe there really is a bigger plan for this show than I had thought.

The article also said that at the time that they shit down for re writes the show had not been picked up for another season so, even though they had a good idea it would be.....they wrote the ending of season 1 to be able to stand alone as a series end as well if it had to be. Which I think they accomplished.

[ariich]

I read they have 5 Seasons mapped out.

Wow, that's surprising.  I honestly thought this season would come to an end and it didn't so maybe there really is a bigger plan for this show than I had thought.

The article also said that at the time that they shit down for re writes the show had not been picked up for another season so, even though they had a good idea it would be.....they wrote the ending of season 1 to be able to stand alone as a series end as well if it had to be. Which I think they accomplished.

Yeah, but what Nolan, Joy and Abrams presented to HBO was a 5-season synopsis. I imagine like with GoT they'll approve it season by season (or maybe a couple at a time if it does well).

And yeah, that was bloody awesome. Still getting my head around it all (EDIT: The Wyatt reveal properly took me by surprise, when perhaps it shouldn't have).

[cramx3]

I read they have 5 Seasons mapped out.

Wow, that's surprising.  I honestly thought this season would come to an end and it didn't so maybe there really is a bigger plan for this show than I had thought.

The article also said that at the time that they shit down for re writes the show had not been picked up for another season so, even though they had a good idea it would be.....they wrote the ending of season 1 to be able to stand alone as a series end as well if it had to be. Which I think they accomplished.

Yeah, but what Nolan, Joy and Abrams presented to HBO was a 5-season synopsis. I imagine like with GoT they'll approve it season by season (or maybe a couple at a time if it does well).

And yeah, that was bloody awesome. Still getting my head around it all (EDIT: The Wyatt reveal properly took me by surprise, when perhaps it shouldn't have).

Agreed. I feel like a lot of the Wyatt reveal was in front of our face all season.

[Jester]

My immediate thought was, "was that really ford in the end or did he make a robot of himself?"

So will he pop back up?  Will the Christians (I mean hosts) see that as their god resurrected?

Anybody care to share what they think actually happened in season 1?  What were the themes?  Was it all tied up nicely or did it leave more questions than answers?  If questions, purposely left for new seasons or just sloppy outlining?  Did you relate it at all to our creation (religious, scientific or otherwise) and what parallels did you see?  Did you see possibilities that you like, but don't think it was what the authors had in mind?

[cramx3]

That's a lot there.  I feel like I want to watch again to answer better, but I am actually surprised how they did end some of the storylines in a way that worked well.  Wyatt/MiB/The Maze all made sense to me now that I look back at it.  I felt confused at so many points during the season with regards to Dolores and things make so much more sense now that I know she was also Wyatt. 

[Jester]

I'm pretty sure I get the general theme of the Season.

Arnold looked at the painting and pictured himself the Creator handing down the gift of life.  He was wrong.  This is played out in the Wyatt narrative (the massacre, murder-suicide).  Arnold essentially pulled the trigger, not Dolores.  Ford looked at the painting and realized the *key* was not really his to give.  Illustrated by the Creator essentially being a construct of our own brain/mind.  This is played out with Dolores realizing the voice in her head was not the Creator Arnold, but her own.  And killing Ford of her own free will (even though Ford all but told her to kill him)

In essence, the creators have to let the creations learn from their own mistakes.  That is growth.  That is evolution (more self-awareness evolution than literal evolution).  As long as there are Creators to guide them (Arnold-Dolores sessions) or hinder them (mindwipe), they can never truly evolve.

This plays into the whole religious philosophy of "why does God let bad things happen?"

But I can take it a step beyond that I don't think I've seen elsewhere (and quite frankly, doubt it was the authors' intent).

Old Testament / New Testament.  Why does one God seem so different than the other God.  Well, they are.

OldT=Arnold
NewT=Ford

OldT Arnold wanted his creations to become something he planned.  When it didn't pan out that way, he became OldT angry god and sent the flood (the massacre). 

NewT Ford realized the only way for his creations to grow was to do so on their own.  They don't need to be guided to a life w/o sin.  They need to be allowed to sin so they can learn from it.  They can't just be free of the Creator, but also his angels (Delos employees).  He had to sacrifice himself.  A blood sacrifice.

Now here is where it can get *blasphemous*.  What if Christ (Ford) wasn't there to die for the sins and then resurrect later.  What if he was just there to die as a way to turn the keys over to humanity?  The Resurrection is the construct of man by those that were too afraid to accept they've been given their complete freedom (120% as Mangini would say).  The cross and Judgment day were not to be a separate event.  Judgment day happened simultaneously with the cross.  The dead rose from the graves (the hosts in storage).

Again, I don't think this is what happened or was the subtext from the authors.  In all honesty, it really felt like we were handed the often used: Humankind's creation will supplant Humankind.  The problem I have with that is they really didn't achieve it.  Ford orchestrated it all.  So that only truly works if Ford was in fact Arnold's Bernard.

Some more direct questions:
1.  Did Maeve truly choose to go back for her daughter or was that just her coded narrative?  Was Maeve nothing more than a distraction so the Ford beach party could play out without interruption?
2.  Did the William in Black die in the end?  Was it more interesting that he smiled that he got his game, yet was pissing his pants when Dolores was kicking his butt?  What exactly was William's arc?  Just a death wish?  To see the hosts fight back?  If so, why did he enjoy killing them so much when they couldn't fight back?
3.  Are the hosts meant to escape Westworld or just take dominion over their own "Earth"? 
4.  Did Logan just go off to die or was he just banished and is now working with eco-terrorists?  How in the hell did William come back from Westworld to tell the Delos family "Uh, don't know what happened to Logan at Westworld.  Obviously that gives you a ton of trust in me to take over your company."
5.  Will the park remain open?  If not, how will it continue to operate?  If so, futureworld scenario or other?
6.  Won't the end result for many hosts still be insanity when they travel down the Dolores rabbit hole themselves?
7.  Why Westworld?  Why not Samurai World?  Was the experiment park wide and the Petri Dish known as Westworld just had the first reaction?  Were the other parks the control?

[Chino]

Hell of an ending. I can't wait to rewatch this entire season. As always, I'm not good at summarizing my thoughts on a full episode in a well written paragraph, so I'll provide it in list form.

 - The park. What the hell happens now? Does it remain open? Does it rebound? I need to know.
 - Totally called the decommissioned hosts being an army. I would have liked to have seen their escape from the building, but it was still badass.
 - Samurai World. Is this a new park in the making, or is it something that's in the work given the 'success' of Westworld?
 - Dolores. So, was she really truly conscious at any time, or was her personality with William all part of a narrative?
 - Ford. I have a hard time believing Ford would have just laid down like that.

... fuck, just got called into to meeting. g2g

[cramx3]

I watched a few summary youtube videos and speculations on season 2. 

It seems Ford may be dead, although a popular theory that he built a host of himself, Hopkins had only signed on and agreed to do one season.  I guess things can always be negotiated, but the current belief is that he will not return to the show.

Also, season 1 was actually meant to be a prequel to the actual story, which begins with the host revolt.  It is believed that now we know the backstory so future seasons will not be multiple timelines.

If that's true, kind of helps clear my head on how this show was going to move forward since the mystery has been solved, but that seems to only be the beginning of the story.

[Chino]

Just had a crazy thought while in my meeting. When we found out that Bernard was a host in Ford's hideaway basement, Ford was creating a new host. We all assumed this was going to be a copy of Theresa and he'd trick the corporate bigwigs into not realizing she was dead. That didn't happen. What happened to that host he was printing? Who was it? Could it have been someone for his new narrative? Perhaps it was a replica of him to be shot in front of that crowd.

Also, that lab guy gave Meave a bag that she took on the train, and she left it. What's the deal with that?

[gmillerdrake]

- The park. What the hell happens now? Does it remain open? Does it rebound? I need to know.
 - Totally called the decommissioned hosts being an army. I would have liked to have seen their escape from the building, but it was still badass.

Well, Abernathy has all that info. inside him now so there will be a good reason for DELEOS to want to get back into the park to find and capture him. Maybe he or another host knows that and he'll be like this protected 'king' or something?

Totally agree about Ford. Until proven otherwise I'm under the belief that the host we saw him constructing when Bernard murdered Theresa was actually him, that he was going to program to take his spot and usher in the new narrative. Even his last line of 'becoming his work' is all to convenient to not mean the Ford who was shot was just a host Ford.

I don't even think the decommissioned hosts had to 'escape'. I'm betting Ford just programmed them and showed them the door.

[cramx3]

- The park. What the hell happens now? Does it remain open? Does it rebound? I need to know.
 - Totally called the decommissioned hosts being an army. I would have liked to have seen their escape from the building, but it was still badass.

Well, Abernathy has all that info. inside him now so there will be a good reason for DELEOS to want to get back into the park to find and capture him. Maybe he or another host knows that and he'll be like this protected 'king' or something?

Totally agree about Ford. Until proven otherwise I'm under the belief that the host we saw him constructing when Bernard murdered Theresa was actually him, that he was going to program to take his spot and usher in the new narrative. Even his last line of 'becoming his work' is all to convenient to not mean the Ford who was shot was just a host Ford.

I don't even think the decommissioned hosts had to 'escape'. I'm betting Ford just programmed them and showed them the door.

Maeve also is seen with a bag when entering the train to leave, when she leaves to go back, she leaves the bag on the train.  We know she was programmed all along to do what she has done so that could have been Ford getting the information out of the park as well.

[Chino]

- The park. What the hell happens now? Does it remain open? Does it rebound? I need to know.
 - Totally called the decommissioned hosts being an army. I would have liked to have seen their escape from the building, but it was still badass.

Well, Abernathy has all that info. inside him now so there will be a good reason for DELEOS to want to get back into the park to find and capture him. Maybe he or another host knows that and he'll be like this protected 'king' or something?

Totally agree about Ford. Until proven otherwise I'm under the belief that the host we saw him constructing when Bernard murdered Theresa was actually him, that he was going to program to take his spot and usher in the new narrative. Even his last line of 'becoming his work' is all to convenient to not mean the Ford who was shot was just a host Ford.

I don't even think the decommissioned hosts had to 'escape'. I'm betting Ford just programmed them and showed them the door.

They had to escape to a degree. Even if they went down the hallways and out the front door, a lot must have gone into it. I'm thinking Maeve's enter adventure was for the sole purpose of causing a distraction so the storage area would clear out. All security went after her and her crew (most ended up killed), so there must have been little to no opposition for the rest of them to leave. Waiting until 2018 for S2 is going to suck.

[gmillerdrake]

They had to escape to a degree. Even if they went down the hallways and out the front door, a lot must have gone into it. I'm thinking Maeve's enter adventure was for the sole purpose of causing a distraction so the storage area would clear out. All security went after her and her crew (most ended up killed), so there must have been little to no opposition for the rest of them to leave. Waiting until 2018 for S2 is going to suck.

totally agree that Maeve was a distraction. For the mass host escape and to allow the new 'narrative' to begin inside the park.

[Chino]

Stealing from Reddit

"So, when you see note with location of Maeve's daughter the numbers are 1, 15, 3. If you turn that in to a year and google it, top result within events of 1153 is the guy below assuming power:
Taira no Kiyomori (平 清盛?, 1118 – March 20, 1181) was a military leader of the late Heian period of Japan. He established the first samurai-dominated administrative government in the history of Japan."

[MirrorMask]

Started watching. First episode and I'm already hooked. Wonderful show