Author Topic: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more  (Read 8074 times)

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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2016, 06:51:47 AM »
I only see Back in Black highly regarded from Brian Johnson era.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2016, 06:54:47 AM »
I only see Back in Black highly regarded from Brian Johnson era.

In terms of albums I'd say you're right (maybe Razor's Edge to a much lesser degree), although they've still had many highly regarded songs since then, and the band is still huge. Either way, your original point is correct that the Bon era is the "classic" lineup.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2016, 07:07:59 AM »
To answer the question for myself, I'd say Metallica with Newsted is my favourite lineup by a smidge over the classic lineup. The classic lineup was consistently great no doubt, but I personally come back to AJFA, TBA, and the best of Load/Reload a lot more than the earlier albums, and much prefer Jason Newsted over Cliff Burton. The classic lineup is the classic lineup though. :metal
Also Dream Theater. To me the SFAM lineup is THE band. :hefdaddy:
And Jimi Jamison Survivor. The earlier lineup has Eye of the Tiger (the song), and that's it for me.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2016, 07:20:16 AM »
I ain't even sure of what is DT classic lineup. The one with Dominici maybe? :neverusethis:

But, seriously, Moore did Images and Awake but stayed only for 3 albums, while Jordan did SFAM and SDOIT and is present in 69% of their discography studio albums (against Moore 23%).
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 07:27:27 AM by Outcrier »
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2016, 07:26:24 AM »
The one that comes to mind is Van Halen.  I much prefer...

The version with Gary Cherone.  :neverusethis:

j/k  Sammy Hagar's tenure with the band was their high point, for me.  The earlier albums with Roth are good, for sure, but I prefer the Hagar albums.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2016, 08:30:13 AM »
I ain't even sure of what is DT classic lineup. The one with Dominici maybe? :neverusethis:

But, seriously, Moore did Images and Awake but stayed only for 3 albums, while Jordan did SFAM and SDOIT and is present in 69% of their discography studio albums (against Moore 23%).

The one on IaW and Awake is definitely the classic line-up, I think.

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2016, 08:45:10 AM »
I ain't even sure of what is DT classic lineup. The one with Dominici maybe? :neverusethis:

But, seriously, Moore did Images and Awake but stayed only for 3 albums, while Jordan did SFAM and SDOIT and is present in 69% of their discography studio albums (against Moore 23%).

The one on IaW and Awake is definitely the classic line-up, I think.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2016, 08:50:08 AM »
Was that even a question? It's not like Outcrier was being serious. :lol
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2016, 09:05:08 AM »
I was.

I was inclined to say the one with Rudess was the classic lineup though.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2016, 09:06:52 AM »
No mention of Dominici is allowed to be serious. :neverusethis:

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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2016, 09:18:00 AM »
That part was the joke, the rest was dead serious ;)

I was inclined to that lineup as the classic one because, when it's all said and done, Jordan will probably be remembered as the definitive DT keyboardist.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:23:32 AM by Outcrier »
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2016, 10:19:26 AM »
To answer the question for myself, I'd say Metallica with Newsted is my favourite lineup by a smidge over the classic lineup. The classic lineup was consistently great no doubt, but I personally come back to AJFA, TBA, and the best of Load/Reload a lot more than the earlier albums, and much prefer Jason Newsted over Cliff Burton. The classic lineup is the classic lineup though. :metal
Also Dream Theater. To me the SFAM lineup is THE band. :hefdaddy:
And Jimi Jamison Survivor. The earlier lineup has Eye of the Tiger (the song), and that's it for me.

The lineup with Newsted could be considered Metallica's classic lineup as well. That is when they were at their peak popularity and reached levels of success that they couldn't have dreamed about with Cliff. I'm inclined to say that they're one of the few bands that have two definitive lineups making it hard to say which is the "classic" lineup (DT being another with the Moore and Rudess lineups both being legendary).
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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2016, 03:12:32 PM »
That part was the joke, the rest was dead serious ;)

I was inclined to that lineup as the classic one because, when it's all said and done, Jordan will probably be remembered as the definitive DT keyboardist.

I think when determining which lineup is "classic," you look at the band's most iconic albums, and see what lineup released those, and then err on the side of the band's era of greatest prominence (which is usually earlier in their career).

I would say that DT's most iconic and well-regarded albums outside of the dedicated fanbase are IAW, Awake and SFAM. Maybe 8VM as a fourth one. But I think that's enough to make Petrucci/Myung/Portnoy/Moore/LaBrie the classic lineup.

With Metallica, it's simpler. Though The Black Album and AJFA are well-regarded, MOP is considered their classic album, and RTL has a similar status to AJFA—I think Hetfield/Ulrich/Burton/Hammett should be considered the classic lineup.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2016, 03:23:53 PM »
Yeah, if you're gonna omit SDOIT because of your personal opinion on it, sure.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2016, 03:53:37 PM »
Yeah, if you're gonna omit SDOIT because of your personal opinion on it, sure.

Outside of DTF, I can see how 8vm could be more popular than SDoIT.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2016, 03:57:05 PM »
I think it can definitely be argued that some bands have more than one classic lineup, just like many bands are often said to have more than one masterpiece, and I'd say bands like DT and VH certainly have more than one classic lineup.

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2016, 04:08:34 PM »
I don't know.  I never looked at Van Hagar as a classic line up.  Just a great line up. I used classic for the Dave era.  Classic doesn't always mean best.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2016, 04:27:51 PM »
I think it can definitely be argued that some bands have more than one classic lineup, just like many bands are often said to have more than one masterpiece, and I'd say bands like DT and VH certainly have more than one classic lineup.

I guess Black Sabbath could be an example of this when there is a classic Ozzy-era and classic Dio-era.

Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2016, 04:30:57 PM »
Outside of DTF, I can see how 8vm could be more popular than SDoIT.

If that was true, 8varium is a Rudess album anyway.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2016, 04:36:59 PM »
I don't know.  I never looked at Van Hagar as a classic line up.  Just a great line up. I used classic for the Dave era.  Classic doesn't always mean best.

Yep. Given the hoopla for a Dave reunion and the lack of clamor for a Hagar one, DLR VH is seen as the classic lineup.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2016, 04:43:50 PM »
Outside of DTF, I can see how 8vm could be more popular than SDoIT.

If that was true, 8varium is a Rudess album anyway.

Not the point, 425 was saying that IaW and Awake are praised collectively more than any other pair of DT albums, so that's their classic line-up. People treat those 2 like legendary albums and while SfaM gets the same treatment, SDoiT doesn't really get that outside of DTF from what I find as it tends to be somewhat divisive.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2016, 05:13:28 PM »
I don't know.  I never looked at Van Hagar as a classic line up.  Just a great line up. I used classic for the Dave era.  Classic doesn't always mean best.

Yep. Given the hoopla for a Dave reunion and the lack of clamor for a Hagar one, DLR VH is seen as the classic lineup.

They already had a Van Hagar reunion, over 10 years ago, and I am pretty sure it did extremely well.

Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2016, 05:44:37 PM »
Not the point, 425 was saying that IaW and Awake are praised collectively more than any other pair of DT albums, so that's their classic line-up. People treat those 2 like legendary albums and while SfaM gets the same treatment, SDoiT doesn't really get that outside of DTF from what I find as it tends to be somewhat divisive.

Hm... Outside of DTF?

In the end, Moore being THE classic lineup is probably the right answer but i like to think the same as Kev, that i can argue classic status for both lineups.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:50:31 PM by Outcrier »
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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2016, 06:25:42 PM »
Yeah, if you're gonna omit SDOIT because of your personal opinion on it, sure.

Outside of DTF, I can see how 8vm could be more popular than SDoIT.

Yeah if you read what non-DT fans say about DT, 8VM is mentioned more often, in my estimation, than SDOIT. Nothing to do with my view on SDOIT, there's no reason at all to think that has anything to do with that. It's just the way it is. SDOIT is not an accessible album and has more of a cult-favorite status than a widely-regarded-classic status.

In my own estimation, in the music world at large, IAW and SFAM are the most recognized and praised, then Awake in third, then a drop-off to 8VM 4th, then another drop-off to SDOIT and ToT, then everything else is mostly off the radar (not including TA, I think it's too early to say on that one, though I imagine it will end up off the radar), with an SC, an FII or an ADTOE getting the occasional mention.

To substantiate this a bit, look at RateYourMusic. IAW has a 3.74 average on 7,191 ratings (the number of ratings is important because it shows how many people even cared to rate the album). SFAM has a 3.75 average on 6,193 ratings. Awake has a 3.67 average on 5,167 ratings. Then fourth place in terms of number of ratings is not SDOIT but Octavarium, which has 4,221 ratings and a 3.20 average. Then ToT at 3.45 average on 4,108 ratings. SDOIT outperforms these two on average rating, where it has a 3.54, but it has 3,710 ratings. Obviously this is not an exact science, and it's only one site, but I think it strongly suggests that SDOIT is not nearly as popular as IAW or SFAM, or even Awake—IAW has almost twice as many ratings as SDOIT!

SputnikMusic shows a similar trend, where IAW and SFAM have 2,636 and 2,760 ratings respectively, while SDOIT has 1,775. Interestingly, 8VM and ToT received more ratings than Awake on this site, but Awake does have the third-highest rating after IAW and SFAM. SDOIT comes in 4th in that metric, but 8th(!) in total votes received—which is a pattern totally consistent with a cult-favorite, which is exactly what it is. Again, this is far from an exact science, but it shows that what I'm saying I've observed is not stuff that I've just completely made up, but has some actual basis in the data provided by popular music-rating websites.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2016, 06:39:04 PM »
But isn't a cult favorite something that only the fandom love? SDOIT clearly has a better rating than ToT and 8varium in both sites, so it's loved there too.

Also, in both sites, it's just a tiny difference of total votes between those three albums. If SDOIT had like, 1000 votes less than both, then i would agree is something akin to a cult favorite. And 3,700 votes for a prog metal album in RYM is a huge number, no album with that many amount of votes is a cult favorite.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 06:55:32 PM by Outcrier »
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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2016, 08:10:00 PM »
7,191 to 3,710 is not "a tiny difference." That's almost twice as many.

What I meant by "cult favorite" is that it is not among their most well-known albums, but it is liked by a lot of those who know it, and loved by its devotees. That fits SDOIT.
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Offline nicmos

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2016, 08:29:04 PM »
Foo Fighters.

Grohl, Shiflett, Mendel, Hawkins > Grohl

there's more to like about the more recent lineup.

Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2016, 08:45:29 PM »
7,191 to 3,710 is not "a tiny difference." That's almost twice as many.

I meant Octavarium, Train of Though and SDOIT difference of votes.

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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2016, 08:49:14 PM »
Okay, that one is a tiny difference. My main argument, though, was that SDOIT is not nearly as popular as IAW and SFAM, is also noticeably less popular than Awake, and make no more sense than Octavarium to include as a fourth-most-popular album. I think the numbers I found suggest that my claims are probably accurate.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2016, 08:56:26 PM »
Yeah, but that's what non DT fans think. Shouldn't the opinion of the dedicated fanbase count too?
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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2016, 12:08:40 AM »
First, what is a classic album? I would say that it is an album that is among two or three albums that are automatically associated with an artist in the popular mind and are widely acclaimed as among their best albums. In some cases, you may not even have heard a note of an artist's music and still be able to name their classics. An obvious example: The Dark Side of the Moon is Pink Floyd's foremost classic album. It's the album that is most immediately and inextricably associated with Floyd, and it's very well-regarded. You could then say that The Wall and Wish You Were Here also qualify as classic albums from Floyd. Not as famous as TDSOTM, but still very immediate associations with the name Pink Floyd and widely acclaimed albums.

I would say that you can find two Dream Theater albums that are indisputably classics that the fanbase and casual listeners would all call classics: Images and Scenes.

The dedicated fans like SDOIT a lot. The casuals like 8VM a lot. But neither has the universal acclaim of IAW or SFAM. The dedicated fans don't really love 8VM, and the casual fans don't seem to really love SDOIT.

Then there's Awake, which is probably the closest thing to a consensus third choice among casual and dedicated fans.

To me, that makes it clear: DT's classic albums are IAW and SFAM, with Awake as a possible third classic. Then SDOIT and 8VM are the next level of cuts below classic.

Of course what the dedicated fans think matters. But dedicated fans, by themselves, do not a classic make. You and I have been having a back and forth in the Iron Maiden survivor threads on a tangentially related topic, so let me put it to you this way. I alluded to the opinions of the dedicated Maiden fanbase based on my experience on a particular, DTF-like forum. This particular, highly dedicated, segment of the fanbase would put Somewhere In Time on the same level as or higher than The Number of the Beast or Powerslave. No doubt. But their opinion on that, valid though it may be, does not vault Somewhere In Time (which really kind of is the SDOIT of Maiden fans) into the top tier of classic Iron Maiden albums—Iron Maiden's classic albums remain Beast and Powerslave with Piece of Mind as a possible third choice. SIT remains one of the lowest-regarded among Maiden's 80s albums among the casual fanbase and general music community.

Perhaps an even better example would be Tales From Topographic Oceans, but I don't know enough about the Yes fanbase's opinion on that album to say for sure. If it is widely loved among dedicated Yes fans, I would say that you have a very similar situation to SDOIT there. It's still not a Yes classic—those are Fragile and Close to the Edge.

So my position is that while the opinions of dedicated fans matter, dedicated fans alone cannot lionize an album after the fact and make it into a classic if the music world writ large disagrees. The set of the most dedicated Yes fans can all love TFTO, but they can't make it a classic Yes album by themselves. The set of the most dedicated Iron Maiden fans can all love SIT, but they can't make it a classic Iron Maiden album by themselves. And DTF can love SDOIT, but it cannot make it a classic Dream Theater album all by itself.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2016, 12:25:46 AM »
Trying to differentiate casual/dedicated fans and gauge general opinion to determine what's classic for an obscure band like DT makes no sense to me. DT just aren't popular enough for that. I think it's obvious that the first two with both the KM/JLB lineup and the JR/MP lineup are considered classics by fans. The rest of this over-analysis baffles me.
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Offline 425

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2016, 12:42:21 AM »
DT isn't some extremely obscure underground band. They're not obscure in the way that a lot of lesser-known prog/metal/whatever bands are obscure. They exist somewhere on the bubble of known and obscure. They typify their genre of music, which doesn't make obscure, but they have a pretty obscure genre, which doesn't make them known. But prog metal isn't obscure like post-electro-shoegaze-core.

DT is known well enough to have a lot of people talking about them who aren't hardcore fans. You will see DT talked about on prog forums, metal forums, and even forums about music in general. And I'm just saying, you look at a music forum, you look at a prog forum, you look at a metal forum, hardly anyone is talking about SDOIT. They're talking about IAW, SFAM, maybe Awake, and 8VM (for the title track, mostly, I suspect). SDOIT just does not have the same status in the world outside of DTF as the likes of IAW and SFAM do. It is not on that level in terms of popularity. Nothing wrong with that, that's nothing against it, but that's just the truth.
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Offline Outcrier

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2016, 08:04:28 AM »
I think it's obvious that the first two with both the KM/JLB lineup and the JR/MP lineup are considered classics by fans.

That's what i think. Rudess did SFAM and the fourth most well regarded DT album, plus he's with the band for nearly 20 years now.

Moore being the classic lineup is the common sense here, but if someone argues Rudess, i don't think he's on the wrong either.

EDIT: Oh, i realized i derailed the thread with this discussion. My bad  :blush
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 09:57:35 AM by Outcrier »
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Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: Bands whose non-classic lineup you like more
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2016, 09:13:07 AM »
Motley Crue - they are just one of those bands for me, but the lone album with Corabi is a gem.

I like the s/t album better than any other Motley Crue album, but I almost consider it a separate band, since it doesn't really sound like the Crue.