The Wheel Of Time books - Robert Jordan

[Logain Ablar]

I appreciate the job that Sanderson did finishing the series and there were some awesome parts. I understand some people were glad the pace picked up in the last 3 books but some of it was terribly written and just didn't feel like WoT at all. Also I'm sorry but he ruined Mat and that made me sad. Mat became a parody of himself in those 3 books. Sanderson didn't 'get' how to write Mat and make him funny. Mat was funny because he was never trying to be funny, his internal monologues were always deadly serious to Mat, which was hilarious for the reader.

I think BS himself acknowledged himself that his writing of Mat was a bit off. I noticed it myself that he had become a comedy character, but thankfully I think it got toned down as the last 3 books progressed.

No, it's a fair comment. He was obviously the forefather of all fantasy so he spawned a lot of fantasy writers but I don't think he's the best at it. I found TLotR a harder set of books to get through than WoT, even though they are way shorter. People love Tolkien because he created this whole world with history and languages which is really cool but it didn't excite me so much. WoT has a completely different feel after the first book. I found all the long songs and things like that in LotR boring.

If you read the first Wheel of Time book and like it (or even just think it's ok) then please at least read the next two. If you're not hooked after the climaxes in either the second or third books it's probably not for you. Book 4 is when the series starts to grow and explore more than the main characters, even though they are still central, and sub plots start up. God, I get goose bumps just thinking about all the amazing scenes that happen just in those first 4 books.

  I totally understand anyone not able to get into Tolkien's writing style. It's quite archaic and old fashioned, and I found myself having to work hard to get used to it. But, when I did get used to it, I found it really immersive, and to me it felt like I was reading a true story, of events that actually happened. For me, LOTR is still the best.

I definitely second what's been said about not stopping after the first WoT book. You don't really get a good feel for the series after the first book.

I have been looking for a new series or saga to sink my teeth in to. My reading queue is pretty light. I am not a huge fantasy fan, but I have loved A Song of Ice and Fire so much more than I expected. This series looks a bit daunting though.

Yeah, I'd say ASOIAF is pretty light on the fantasy elements, and heavy on the historical and political side of things. WoT is definitely heavier on the fantasy side, with a complex system of magic (special powers, abilities), plus elements of reincarnation and that kind of thing.

You could also look at the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. There's only been two books released so far (first one is The Name Of The Wind), but it is showing promise.

[Evermind]

Yeah, one of my big gripes with WoT was the incredible number of unlikely plot coincidences (I saw the joke somewhere about how ta'veren means "plot device" in English ) and the fact none of the characters ever seemed to die even getting in the ridiculously dangerous and life-threatening situations repeatedly. I realize it's how the book universe basically works, but it still feels cheap for me.

Another problem with the series for me was were some of the drawn-out and boring (in my opinion) subplots where I basically struggled to keep reading. Perrin / Faile was the worst offender (especially since I flat-out disliked Faile as a character). ASOIAF had the same problem in books 4 and 5, I think.

So with all that, I've read the series once, found it interesting enough, but I don't think I will be rereading it any time soon, if ever. And I've reread the existing ASOIAF books like five times already, so there's that.

I'm really glad I did read the series though, because among other things it made me check out Sanderson's books and now he's one of my favourite writers in fantasy. I agree his writing in WoT was a bit off (on some characters more than on the others), but he shines on his own books.

[Logain Ablar]

I'm really glad I did read the series though, because among other things it made me check out Sanderson's books and now he's one of my favourite writers in fantasy. I agree his writing in WoT was a bit off (on some characters more than on the others), but he shines on his own books.

I definitely agree with that. I would never have heard of him had it not been for WoT. I'm reading Words of Radiance at the minute - second book in his Stormlight Archive. Good stuff so far.

[twosuitsluke]

Yeah, one of my big gripes with WoT was the incredible number of unlikely plot coincidences (I saw the joke somewhere about how ta'veren means "plot device" in English ) and the fact none of the characters ever seemed to die even getting in the ridiculously dangerous and life-threatening situations repeatedly. I realize it's how the book universe basically works, but it still feels cheap for me.

Another problem with the series for me was were some of the drawn-out and boring (in my opinion) subplots where I basically struggled to keep reading. Perrin / Faile was the worst offender (especially since I flat-out disliked Faile as a character). ASOIAF had the same problem in books 4 and 5, I think.

So with all that, I've read the series once, found it interesting enough, but I don't think I will be rereading it any time soon, if ever. And I've reread the existing ASOIAF books like five times already, so there's that.

I'm really glad I did read the series though, because among other things it made me check out Sanderson's books and now he's one of my favourite writers in fantasy. I agree his writing in WoT was a bit off (on some characters more than on the others), but he shines on his own books.

I know the Ta'veren thing can feel like a cheap plot device but there is more to it than that as it's also to do with how the Pattern creates Ta'veren when they are needed so that is also part of it. There's also the other ways that Ta'veren effect the world around them. I personally love it and at least it's explained instead of just the characters are incredibly lucky/enemies are incompetent. I mean look at Star Wars, Stormtroopers can't shoot for shit and they are supposed to be trained soldiers!! It's never explained or addressed why they are so incompetent. It's the way it is and that is WAY more ridiculous than anything that happens in WoT!!

I know what you mean about the sub plots dragging, especially the Faile/Perrin thing. Perrin was my favourite character in the middle part of the series, until that whole debacle. On my first read through I was tearing my hair out. On multiple re reads though I now just appreciate the characters Jordan created, the way he wrote (so much great dialogue) and all the hidden intricacies in the books you notice on re reads. That being said, my first read through, focusing on the main plot and central characters, was still an incredible read!!

I've not read any Sanderson but I'll have to give him a go. I know the task of finishing WoT was almost impossible and I'm glad he did it. It just breaks my heart that Jordan wasn't able to finish it himself.

I'm going to finish The Dark Tower series (no spoilers please) then maybe try Sanderson.

[Randaran]

I'd recommend the Mistborn trilogy as your first Sanderson work. Unlike Stormlight, it's complete, and it's one of my favorite recent fantasy titles.

[Logain Ablar]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

[twosuitsluke]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

There are many theories around Asmodean but a definitive answer was never given. If there are enough people who have read the whole story I'd like to start a full discussion thread with spoilers?

[Evermind]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

This Egwene plot was actually one of my favourites, great stuff.

[Randaran]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

There are many theories around Asmodean but a definitive answer was never given. If there are enough people who have read the whole story I'd like to start a full discussion thread with spoilers?

A definitive answer was given. The killer is Graendal. The answer was provided through a subtle line of dialogue in Towers of Midnight ("you've killed three of my Forsaken", but we only knew of two by that point), and is explicitly stated in the killer's ToM glossary entry.

[twosuitsluke]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

This Egwene plot was actually one of my favourites, great stuff.

Yea I loved the Egwene in the White Tower plot. Made me actually like her a lot more.

The part I hated most was Elayne trying to rally all the Houses when she was trying to claim the throne. I found all the political stuff pretty boring.

[twosuitsluke]

+1 for the Mistborn trilogy.

I agree the Perrin/Faile storyline was dragged on too long. Also, when Egwene goes to the tower and becomes a novice (trying to stay vague and spoiler-free), I thought "this is going to take forever..."    But, for sheer scope of imagination, it's incredible.

I may revisit WoT one day, but I'm such a slow reader it will take me years to get through it again! I think next time, I'd pay more attention to certain plot points, especially around the Forsaken, whenever they pop up. (For instance: Asmodean - I'm still not clear on what happened in his storyline - PM me if anyone has a good explanation  )

Has anyone ever read any of RJ's other non-WoT books? Anything worth picking up?

There are many theories around Asmodean but a definitive answer was never given. If there are enough people who have read the whole story I'd like to start a full discussion thread with spoilers?

A definitive answer was given. The killer is Graendal. The answer was provided through a subtle line of dialogue in Towers of Midnight ("you've killed three of my Forsaken", but we only knew of two by that point), and is explicitly stated in the killer's ToM glossary entry.

Apologies, you are indeed right. I forgot about that 

[Logain Ablar]

Thanks guys, that one was pretty subtle and easily missed!

I did enjoy Egwene's story in the Tower, once it got going, but I remember at the time feeling like this was like 5 steps back for the character.

Who was your favourite minor character? Mine's obvious from the username.. 

[twosuitsluke]

Thanks guys, that one was pretty subtle and easily missed!

I did enjoy Egwene's story in the Tower, once it got going, but I remember at the time feeling like this was like 5 steps back for the character.

Who was your favourite minor character? Mine's obvious from the username.. 

That was revealed in Towers of Midnight wasn't it? The Asmodean thing I mean. I remember all the theories and discussions about it before it was put to rest. Can't believe that actually slipped my mind.

Favourite minor character? Logain was awesome. I always loved Bashere, some of the Aiel Wise Ones (Sorelia? Not even 100% that's how you spell her name), Selucia I liked, of course Tam. The list could go on

[Evermind]

Along with some of the minor characters you guys mentioned, I also quite liked Gareth Bryne and Birgitte. And probably a few others I can't remember right now. There are just so many characters in WoT it's daunting.

[twosuitsluke]

Along with some of the minor characters you guys mentioned, I also quite liked Gareth Bryne and Birgitte. And probably a few others I can't remember right now. There are just so many characters in WoT it's daunting.

I loved Bryne and Siuan's relationship, was great. Birgitte's story is really quite sad at times as well. I liked what happened to Galina at the hands of the Shaido Wise Ones. She got what was coming to her, very satisfying 

[Randaran]

My favorite minor character is.. well, I've forgotten his name, but it is the Black Tower student who is proficient at using gates. He is a typical Sanderson character - someone who has a unique, defined set of abilities that the author can then use to explore the limits of the magic system. It's a large part of why I love Sanderson so much as a writer.

Aside from that, it's been so long that I can hardly remember any of the numerous side characters. I haven't read any WoT since A Memory of Light came out 3 years ago (damn, it's been that long already?). Maybe Galina. Her entire 'arc' was both amusing and incredibly satisfying.

[Logain Ablar]

My favorite minor character is.. well, I've forgotten his name, but it is the Black Tower student who is proficient at using gates. He is a typical Sanderson character - someone who has a unique, defined set of abilities that the author can then use to explore the limits of the magic system. It's a large part of why I love Sanderson so much as a writer.

^ Androl (had to look it up  )

[twosuitsluke]

I actually wasn't a fan of Androl. I didn't mind the character too much but, as you'd mentioned, you could tell it was a character Sanderson had created. This always turned me off because there were times reading those last books that I almost forgot that it wasn't Jordan writing it. Then I would read something like a scene with Androl and it was quite jarring. It just felt different. The other thing about that was I felt that too much time was spent on Androl. In the last book especially there were soo many sub plots to try and tie up (an impossible job for Sanderson I know) but I wanted to read more about the minor characters that had been written by Jordan. Again, it wasn't that I disliked Androl, it was more about what the inclusion of a new character like that brought home to me.

There's so many character's names that have slipped my mind but there were some really cool Aiel throughout the story. One other scene I want to mention, which may be my favourite of the series, is when Rand sees the history of the Aiel through the generations!! Such an incredible scene, I could talk forever just about the history of the Aiel.

[Logain Ablar]

I think the one part that didn't feel like Jordan was during the Last Battle, and it probably links with Androl's abilities. The scene where there are massive moving gateways, basically turning everyone into diced carrots was incredibly cool, but still felt anti-Jordan to me. Not saying I didn't like it, but it didn't seem like something Jordan would do.

I wasn't the biggest fan of the Seanchan storyline. I don't think their story arc was developed as much as it could have been, and I found the scenes between Tuon and Mat a bit tiresome.

[Evermind]

I generally found Tuon quite tiresome. Even her name was a bad pun.

[twosuitsluke]

So it looks like The Wheel of Time may finally be getting it's own TV series.

https://variety.com/2017/tv/news/wheel-of-time-tv-series-sony-1202390897/

I really hope they do it justice.

[Logain Ablar]

I spotted that too on my FB feed. I dunno, I really hope they do a good job, but my hopes aren't high.

They'll have to cut the story to ribbons to get something that's filmable. One promising thing is that Harriet McDougal, RJ's wife and editor, is listed as a consulting producer. I hope she has enough clout to keep the show true to the source material.

It would be a total train wreck if they went in the same kind of direction as the Shannara show that was on Netflix.

[hefdaddy42]

It would be a total train wreck if they went in the same kind of direction as the Shannara show that was on Netflix.

To be fair, that wasn't a Netflix original.  I'm sure it would have been much better if it was.

It was done by MTV, and only shown on Netflix later.

[Sacul]

I generally found Tuon quite tiresome. Even her name was a bad pun.

Wait, is it a pun? Of what?

[Logain Ablar]

It would be a total train wreck if they went in the same kind of direction as the Shannara show that was on Netflix.

To be fair, that wasn't a Netflix original.  I'm sure it would have been much better if it was.

It was done by MTV, and only shown on Netflix later.

Ah - didn't realise it was an MTV thing. I suppose in hindsight, in the 3 or 4 episodes that I did struggle through, it was obvious who their target market was.

I really hope Sony throws enough money at this to give it a fighting chance. It needs production values like those of GoT, I reckon, to do it justice.

[Evermind]

I generally found Tuon quite tiresome. Even her name was a bad pun.

Wait, is it a pun? Of what?

Well, her full name is Fortuona, and since how Matrim was the guy who is extremely lucky all the time, that's just how I see it. Perhaps "pun" is a wrong word, but I guess you see what I mean.

Also, that post was from 2016. You're quick on the draw!

[Grappler]

I read the first 10 books straight through in 2003/2004.  It was such a herculean task, and books 8-10 didn't help much.  I re-read the full series in 2014 and 2015 and felt a lot better about the entire thing, though I still think the middle of the series drags on for many of the reasons noted in the thread (Perrin/Faile rescue, split Aes Sedai camps, etc.).

A Memory of Light is perfect to me.  I loved that all of the characters finally came together in one place for The Last Battle, after having them so spread out for so many books.  It really is an incredible series, though I don't have the ambition to re-read it a 3rd time yet.

[twosuitsluke]

So just been chatting to Kattelox over PM and turns out he is a huge WoT fan. Any other fresh faces on the forum who are big fans of these books?

I could probably talk for hours about these books (maybe less so than I could 5 years ago but still). I haven't touched the series since I finished AMoL (a few days after it was released in early 2013). I should probably reread as every time I pick up these books it is like visiting an old friend. I'm still confident that after reading some of these books at least 8 times I could still pick up new things I'd never noticed before. Jordan was amazing for that sort of thing!

Also, did anyone visit Dragonmount forums back in the day? That place opened my eyes to so many intricacies that I'd missed. There were also some amazing theories being posted there!

[The Walrus]

Yup, can confirm, huge Wheel of Time fan. I bought the old WoT encyclopedia (white cover) a couple years ago but I believe last fall they released a newer, more updated version with a black cover? I still really want to get that. Maybe as a Christmas gift to myself. Like I told twosuitsluke it's probably time to restart the series again.

Before I read this thread over, one of the most fascinating things about the series (to me) is Seanchan. I always wanted to read more and more and I hoped at some point in the 14 (14!!!) books they'd go there, but nope. It's always just going to be that mystical far off land, like Shara. Although I do like the land of Shara being completely unknown, but not Seanchan. I guess it's because so much of what happens in the series is due to Seanchan shenanigans, and I would've loved to see the rest of it. Hell, after the end of AMOL I think there's still plenty of room for their stories.

When I reread this thread here shortly, I hope there is some discussion about Rand lighting the pipe at the very end. Me and one of my best friends always talk about this...

I've always heard Robert Jordan had a gargantuan amount of unreleased notes on stuff like Seanchan and Shara and if I was granted 3 wishes I'd be very tempted to use one of them to read ALL of those notes. 

[twosuitsluke]

Yup, can confirm, huge Wheel of Time fan. I bought the old WoT encyclopedia (white cover) a couple years ago but I believe last fall they released a newer, more updated version with a black cover? I still really want to get that. Maybe as a Christmas gift to myself. Like I told twosuitsluke it's probably time to restart the series again.

Before I read this thread over, one of the most fascinating things about the series (to me) is Seanchan. I always wanted to read more and more and I hoped at some point in the 14 (14!!!) books they'd go there, but nope. It's always just going to be that mystical far off land, like Shara. Although I do like the land of Shara being completely unknown, but not Seanchan. I guess it's because so much of what happens in the series is due to Seanchan shenanigans, and I would've loved to see the rest of it. Hell, after the end of AMOL I think there's still plenty of room for their stories.

When I reread this thread here shortly, I hope there is some discussion about Rand lighting the pipe at the very end. Me and one of my best friends always talk about this...

I've always heard Robert Jordan had a gargantuan amount of unreleased notes on stuff like Seanchan and Shara and if I was granted 3 wishes I'd be very tempted to use one of them to read ALL of those notes. 

So apparently Jordan had originally planned to release a spin off book (or books?) with Mat and Tuon set in Seanchan. I can't remember if Sanderson ever said that there was enough in his notes to write these, possibly there was?

In regards to Rand and his pipe, Sanderson said Jordan never wanted to give a definitive answer as to how Rand was able to do that. It seems to be a kind of general consensus that Rand is now able to bend the pattern to his will and manipulate it to do things, such as light his pipe. It will never actually be confirmed though.

[The Walrus]

That's what I'm thinking, too. It just seemed like the perfect way to end the series, with a mysterious "gotcha" moment with the pipe. But I think he pretty much became the fabric of reality, you know?

I'm (hopefully) going to have time to start reading these again. It's quite an endeavor. I feel like I could learn a lot more about the Forsaken going through once more. Unfortunately I feel that there were too many of them, even on my first read. Some of them don't get nearly enough time devoted to them and it's a shame that it dwindles down to just a few key players. Although there is some really clever play with two of them - you know who I'm talking about - coming back in the Aes Sedai camp, hah.

[Logain Ablar]

A couple of links about possible other books in the WoT series:

https://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/other/index.html
https://www.facebook.com/notes/wheel-of-time/brandon-sanderson-talks-about-wot-books-beyond-amol/141860114044/

The second one is pretty old (2009), but it seems that the main concern about putting any further material out was the desire to preserve RJ's legacy. It totally get it. If they put something out that was half-assed or badly received then it might tarnish the reputation of the whole series.

I think Brandon is probably wanting to concentrating on his own books. (Have you read any of them? I've liked what I've read of his so far. Can't wait for Stormlight #3).  I'm not sure how keen he'd be to revisit the same world, and TBH I don't think I'd trust anyone else to do it.


I had to go back and remind myself, but I think I'd join the consensus in thinking that Rand had kinda transcended Saidar/Saidin and could alter the Pattern at will. I loved the ending of the series - very very satisfying.

[Grappler]

See my post above for my general thoughts.   

I hated the Seanchan.  The only reason I see for including them in the main series was to give Matt command of some armies by marrying him off to a world leader, which then gives him the experience to lead the armies in the Last Battle (though his memories of past leaders and legendary generals gave him that anyways).  Other than that, it seemed so extraneous to me - why introduce these characters and why make them such a big part of the series....was it just so he could then write a spinoff about them?

Part of it was that it just dragged on and on and on.  Matt and Tuon in hiding with the traveling circus.  Blah...least favorite storyline of the entire series.

[The Walrus]

The end of the series was very satisfying, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want another 100ish pages showing some more closure throughout the world, between the main characters and their hometown and other places throughout the world.

One of my bigger complaints - the traveling circus was among them, how I hated that storyline so much - was Rand's three women. I liked Aviendha and Elayne. I never understood why Min had to be involved. I think the story would've been just fine without Min entirely. I never cared much about her and just wanted her to go away. Aviendha served a purpose. Elayne served a purpose. Min kind of served a purpose but not one that couldn't have been relegated to other existing characters.

Sanderson brought the books back to life (my opinion of course) after Crossroads and Knife were painful to read. That made me want to read Mistborn, but Mistborn felt amateurish to me. I liked the magic system but it felt like I was reading the novelization of a video game which, strangely, didn't click with me, and I didn't like the characters. Stormlight, however - I got 100 pages into the first book before telling myself to stop and wait for the third book to be released. So once that comes out I'll dive headfirst into that. I told myself since I won't give A Song of Ice and Fire another chance until the final book is finished and published, I'll at least wait for 3 books of Stormlight to come before starting that.