The Wheel Of Time books - Robert Jordan

[Logain Ablar]

Hi all,

Starting this thread for chat about the Wheel Of Time series of books, by Robert Jordan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time

This is one of my favourite series of books, as you can tell from my username . To start the ball rolling:

What I liked:

• Incredibly detailed worldbuilding. Lots of great characters, organisations, races and places. I've no idea how RJ managed to keep track of who was doing what.
• Great magic system - the One Power.
• Good character development. You follow a core set of characters from simple beginnings as they develop and find their own talents and purposes within the story.
• Interesting baddies - the Forsaken ("I have come for you, toooonight.."  )
• Some great twists and shock moments

What I didn't:

• Slow pacing at times. Endless descriptions of places, clothing, hair etc. Some books were very slow and then exploded to life in the last few chapters.
• Very very long. Major time investment.
• Some baddies were a bit one-dimensional - Trollocs, or underused - Seanchan.
• The clear similarities with Tolkien (my favourite series ever) grated a bit at first. Trollocs = orcs??
• Sometimes the female characters all blurred into one, literally because there were so many in the White Tower.

Over to you.. 

[pogoowner]

I think the first 3 or so books are very strong, but it definitely goes downhill. I made it to the 7th book, I think, and lost interest. A few years later I started over and made it to the 4th again, I think.

The first book definitely has major Tolkien influences, but he branches off and does his own thing very quickly in the series.

[Logain Ablar]

Aye - it slows to a glacial pace around the time you gave up. I remember it being a real slog, and book 10 almost finished me off! It does pick up again at book 11, and finishes well.

At that point, Robert Jordan had died, and Brandon Sanderson was brought in to finish the series. He did a great job, IMO.

[pogoowner]

I had forgotten just how LONG these books are. But I was a much more avid reader in my early to mid teenage years and apparently had no trouble cutting through quite a few of them. This was after finishing Tolkien's works as well as much of the Redwall series.

[Logain Ablar]

I'm planning to re-read LOTR again, this year. I've read it 3 times, but the last time was before the movies came out. Now the movies and the books have blurred into one, which is a bad thing! As much as I liked those movies, you can't beat the books.

Who's the writer of the Redwall series? Never came across those..

[pogoowner]

Who's the writer of the Redwall series? Never came across those..

Brian Jacques. They're aimed at a younger audience, so definitely not as challenging as The Wheel of Time or Lord of the Rings. I didn't even know that he had written so many novels, actually. I read the ones from the 80's and 90's.

[Sacul]

Funny, I actually felt the series got way better since book 6, and book 7 was my favorite of it at the time, then it kinda kept on the level until Crossroads - what a boring book 

But from there, with he exception of ToM, it was brilliant till the end. My fav book might be either The Gathering Storm or A Memory of Light.

[Logain Ablar]

Yeah, Crossroads was a nightmare. For such a long series, I was really pleased with the ending (giving nothing away), and how everything was wrapped up. The Last Battle stuff was really good. I think B.S. did fantastically well, and it got me into some of his own books, like the Mistborn trilogy, which was really good as well.

I'd read somewhere that there were plans to make a TV series out of WoT. I can't really see that working. I know Game Of Thrones is a big hit and all, but there aren't really too many magical elements in those books. Don't get me wrong - I like those books too, but they are more based on medieval geo-political wranglings, with a few dragons thrown in for good measure. 

[masterthes]

Am I the only one who really enjoys 4 through 6? I think it did slightly go downhill around 7. Path of Daggers was pretty ugh. Winters Heart was amazing and then I stopped in the middle of Crossroads and gave up, but after what everybody has said about the rest of the series, I think I'll have to give it another shot

[Sacul]

I'd just read a summary of Crossroads and move to the following book - things get awesome 

[Randaran]

Am I the only one who really enjoys 4 through 6? I think it did slightly go downhill around 7. Path of Daggers was pretty ugh. Winters Heart was amazing and then I stopped in the middle of Crossroads and gave up, but after what everybody has said about the rest of the series, I think I'll have to give it another shot

No, you are not. 4-7 is my favorite part of the series; it is when the scope of the story greatly increased and it became much more complicated. I feel the same way as you about 8-10. 11 is where it really picks up again, and 12 is my favorite in the series.

I think a large part of what made the middle books slow is the structure rather than pacing. Each character would get around 5 chapters back to back, and then nothing until the next volume, or in some cases, the one after.

This is one of my favourite series of books, as you can tell from my username .

The first half of my username comes from Rand al'Thor; I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to base my handle on The Wheel of Time.

[Logain Ablar]

Am I the only one who really enjoys 4 through 6? I think it did slightly go downhill around 7. Path of Daggers was pretty ugh. Winters Heart was amazing and then I stopped in the middle of Crossroads and gave up, but after what everybody has said about the rest of the series, I think I'll have to give it another shot

If you want to pick the series up again, this site provides chapter summaries, without spoilers (apparently, I can't say for sure), so you can skip through Crossroads if you like.

https://www.thonky.com/wot/

[Logain Ablar]

The first half of my username comes from Rand al'Thor; I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to base my handle on The Wheel of Time.

I was scratching my head for about half an hour trying to think of a handle for the forum. I was trying to think of a minor character that was pretty cool, but that most people wouldn't have heard of..
It was either that or something from LOTR.. 

[yorost]

Crown of Swords (#7) was my favorite book both times I read through the series. I also thought Winter's Heart (#9) was one of the best, so I never completely understood the criticism's over the middle part of the series. The time slows down, but there's so much going on and characters are all developing internally. Crossroad's of Twilight (#10) was the one major poor spot, but it had some good stuff and was more a good idea gone bad. It has surprised me over the years how people completely missed what was going on in that book regarding Egwene and the harbor chain.

[Fluffy Lothario]

I read 1 through 9 while at high school (that was as far as it had gotten at the time).

I also remember 4-6 being a strong period in the story, and I remember liking 7 as well. 8 and 9 were not great though.

I don't think I'm ever gonna go back and read it through again to complete it, but you never know, I suppose. I'd read fantasies that are generally more well-received before going back to this though (I've still never touched Game of Thrones and Malazan Book of the Fallen, for example).

[Logain Ablar]

It has surprised me over the years how people completely missed what was going on in that book regarding Egwene and the harbor chain.

The part with the harbour chain towards the end was definitely the highlight. That was a general issue for me, where quite a few of the books seemed to plod along, and then explode into life with a lot of action happening in the last 1/5th. Also, for me, it seemed to spend an awful lot of time with Faile in the Shaido camp, and there was very little of Rand in the story.

I don't think I'm ever gonna go back and read it through again to complete it, but you never know, I suppose. I'd read fantasies that are generally more well-received before going back to this though (I've still never touched Game of Thrones and Malazan Book of the Fallen, for example).

Yeah - it's a big time commitment.  I liked GoT (books) ok, but with this upcoming season on TV, they will be overtaking the books. It will be interesting to read the book after watching the show - usually it's the other way round! 

[yorost]

It has surprised me over the years how people completely missed what was going on in that book regarding Egwene and the harbor chain.

The part with the harbour chain towards the end was definitely the highlight. That was a general issue for me, where quite a few of the books seemed to plod along, and then explode into life with a lot of action happening in the last 1/5th. Also, for me, it seemed to spend an awful lot of time with Faile in the Shaido camp, and there was very little of Rand in the story.

It's more than just the bang at the end. I've heard many criticism's regarding the entire Egwene story, she's stupid, pointless scenes, etc. My second read through I appreciated it more because I caught onto the subtle points being made and why Egwene going out there was proving her qualifications and understanding rather than showing her as immature.

Overall, though, as I said, I call this book a good idea gone bad. Rand's absence was tough after the events of Winter's Heart, what's next? However, as a base idea this was showing how the entire world was experiencing his choices. Sounds interesting, it just didn't work out.

I don't think I'm ever gonna go back and read it through again to complete it, but you never know, I suppose. I'd read fantasies that are generally more well-received before going back to this though (I've still never touched Game of Thrones and Malazan Book of the Fallen, for example).

I used to think Wheel of Time was something that wore out and wasn't as good as other authors. The final book, even with some misses, changed my mind back. It's one of my two favorite fantasy/scifi series. The scope, detail, and quality of the series made A Memory of Light one of the most intense reads I've ever had. At some points it was feeling like every few paragraphs was a culmination of important events you'd been anticipating and speculating about. I'd correctly hit on some big theories like how things would unfold with Nynaeve/Lan and totally missed on others, like Sorilea. ...I miss the unknown element of the series, but that it existed so strongly because of the writing made the the final book so much more than just a final event.

[Logain Ablar]

It's more than just the bang at the end. I've heard many criticism's regarding the entire Egwene story, she's stupid, pointless scenes, etc. My second read through I appreciated it more because I caught onto the subtle points being made and why Egwene going out there was proving her qualifications and understanding rather than showing her as immature.

Overall, though, as I said, I call this book a good idea gone bad. Rand's absence was tough after the events of Winter's Heart, what's next? However, as a base idea this was showing how the entire world was experiencing his choices. Sounds interesting, it just didn't work out.

I think RJ was trying to fill out Faile and Perrin's characters a little - how he would discover what he was prepared to do to get her back, and what she would do to survive etc. But, the reader was dying to know more about Rand at this point, and this storyline was maybe too much of a distraction, and perhaps that's why people don't rate this one as highly.

I can see what you're saying about Egwene - she was going to have to work her way up from the bottom to prove her worth.

The final book, even with some misses, changed my mind back. It's one of my two favorite fantasy/scifi series. The scope, detail, and quality of the series made A Memory of Light one of the most intense reads I've ever had. At some points it was feeling like every few paragraphs was a culmination of important events you'd been anticipating and speculating about. I'd correctly hit on some big theories like how things would unfold with Nynaeve/Lan and totally missed on others, like Sorilea. ...I miss the unknown element of the series, but that it existed so strongly because of the writing made the the final book so much more than just a final event.

I totally agree with this. The final book was one big action-fest, but it also did a fantastic job of tying all the major plot points together. At some points it was just total carnage - using gateways as weapons was very cool. I think that was maybe a Sanderson thing, but I really liked it. BTW - I think Sanderson deserves huge credit for wrapping up the whole thing as seamlessly as possible.

Oh, and the ending. I read online a few folks weren't happy with it, but I thought it was great, because it didn't come across as "happy ever after", but was still surprising and satisfying in its own way.

Do you think this could ever be made into a (successful!) TV or movie series? I really don't think so..

[Randaran]

Do you think this could ever be made into a (successful!) TV or movie series? I really don't think so..

The individual books are too long for movies, and a live action TV show would be too expensive and likely would not run to the end. The only medium that could do TWoT justice is animation. I'd love to see that, though I doubt that it will ever happen.

[yorost]

Apparently there is some controversy surrounding the tv rights. Red Eagle Entertainment is trying to keep the rights to produce (how did they ever get it?) and paid to air a pilot in the middle of the night, recently. The pilot was supposedly an attempt to prevent the rights from reverting to Jordan's estate due to inactivity. Sounds like they're a holding company with no true means or intent of producing the series.

edit: It was a year ago, not sure how things stand, now.

[Logain Ablar]

Apparently there is some controversy surrounding the tv rights. Red Eagle Entertainment is trying to keep the rights to produce (how did they ever get it?) and paid to air a pilot in the middle of the night, recently. The pilot was supposedly an attempt to prevent the rights from reverting to Jordan's estate due to inactivity. Sounds like they're a holding company with no true means or intent of producing the series.

edit: It was a year ago, not sure how things stand, now.

This was that pilot - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOCCEuROPk

I only got a few minutes in, and had to stop watching, it was that bad!  I think you're right though - some sort of pilot had to be made and aired before they lost the rights. Probably the hope is that some big TV network will come along and buy the rights off them for a tidy sum.

TBH, I'm not sure how the whole story could be represented in any other medium without huge editing, removal of characters etc. Of course it could be argued that WoT had too many characters to begin with, but I felt that it added to the feeling that you were immersed in this massive world, with real people within the different factions working to further their own agendas.

I think that's the great thing about books though - you can work your way through them at your own pace, rather than being restricted to a specific time format, like a  2 hour movie or a 1 hour TV show. You're free to immerse yourself in as much detail as you like.

I'm OK with it never being translated into any other medium. Some books were meant to be left as books.. 

[Prog Snob]

I just started The Eye of the World. I'm only about 60 or so pages in. It's a slow read and I'm trying to gain my footing right now. It isn't really going anywhere just yet but I'm hoping once the group leaves Two Rivers to patrol the surrounding areas things will start to happen.

[Logain Ablar]

Just wait until they meet up with Strider at the Prancing Pony... Oh, wait... 

I just found out recently that a studio has optioned the rights to make it into a TV show:

https://www.tor.com/2016/04/28/tv-rights-to-the-wheel-of-time-optioned-by-new-studio-with-jordan-estates-approval/

[Lynxo]

Oh, this series infuriates me. 
It has nothing to do with books themselves or the author or anything. It's that when I started reading them, they were available in Swedish so I read that. I got really far into the series, I think I was only two books away from finishing it when I found out that the company responsible for the translation would NOT translate the last remaning books!

So it was like...do I read it in english from now, and probably confuse myself a few times with the names? Do I start over and buy them all again in english? The whole thing made me so angry I rage-quitted the series and haven't picked up the books since then. 

[Logain Ablar]

That really sucks. 

I'm sure it was a mammoth undertaking to translate this series at all, but why translate 11 of the books and not the last 3? Makes no sense, unless it was a financial decision.

Did they change the names of all the characters for the Swedish translations? You'd think they would want to keep the character and place names the same if they possibly could.

(I'm just impressed that reading a book in another language is even an option for you!  )

[Lynxo]

That really sucks. 

I'm sure it was a mammoth undertaking to translate this series at all, but why translate 11 of the books and not the last 3? Makes no sense, unless it was a financial decision.

Did they change the names of all the characters for the Swedish translations? You'd think they would want to keep the character and place names the same if they possibly could.

(I'm just impressed that reading a book in another language is even an option for you!  )

Yeah, that sucked. I think it was a financial decision, but the book series had its fans and to translate so much of it and leave out the remaining ones was just plain evil.

I don't think they changed the names that much, but I seem to remember there was a few. I actually prefer to read books translated, mostly because I'm not that good in english. It just makes the whole reading more difficult. If I read it in swedish, the book is all about its content, not me trying to decipher what it says.

[Logain Ablar]

I get you.. I've had to look up a fair few words from WoT in the dictionary myself, to figure them out, so it must be a lot worse for a non-native speaker.

I've wondered how they maintain the "feel" of the text when they translate a book like that to another language. I mean, if the book uses a lot of old English words, say to convey a sense of importance or old-fashioned-ness, would the translators try and pick equivalent words and expressions from Swedish, to get the same vibe? I suppose they would..

[twosuitsluke]

Just want to resurrect this thread to say I'm a huge fan of WoT. I could discuss it all day. Speaking on the issue of different language editions of the books have any of you guys seen the cover art for some of the books released in other countries? Some are so terrible it's laughable. The Japanese ones were awesome if I remember rightly though.

I've gotta say in regards to the pacing of the series I know what some of you said about it dragging. The first read through I wanted to know what happened to the main characters so bad I didn't give a crap about subplots and all that (urgh, Elayne's whole plot about claiming the throne and all the political bullshit) but on multiple rereads I appreciate it all so much more. I honestly love every book (almost, I'll get to that) and find something I love in every scene. RJ had a huge vision and the problem was the more the world grew the more he fleshed it out. If he hadn't died he definitely wouldn't have finished the series yet. I appreciate the job that Sanderson did finishing the series and there were some awesome parts. I understand some people were glad the pace picked up in the last 3 books but some of it was terribly written and just didn't feel like WoT at all. Also I'm sorry but he ruined Mat and that made me sad. Mat became a parody of himself in those 3 books. Sanderson didn't 'get' how to write Mat and make him funny. Mat was funny because he was never trying to be funny, his internal monologues were always deadly serious to Mat, which was hilarious for the reader.

Anyways, I digress. I do wish to discuss the shit out of this as I haven't in a long time. I seriously read and reread this series for about 10 years reading very little in between. I used to go on Dragonmount forums a lot as there were some incredible theories knocking about on there before the series finished.

[Tomislav95]

Hm I'm thinking about buying it. It was never translated to my language so it's not in my local library. I seriously need to check book depository and deals on eBay (just got The Earthsea Quartet very cheaply off eBay).

[twosuitsluke]

I cannot recommend it enough. The first book is a bit of a Tolkien rip off, but still very enjoyable. It was meant to be able to be a standalone book though incase it was a failure. After it took off Jordan was able to take the series in the way he envisioned. It becomes infinitely better than LotR in my opinion.

Be careful though, it seriously ruined all other fantasy for me though as nothing has ever managed to compare to it. If you like books with lots of hidden depth then this series is for you. All the major events that happen are hinted at throughout the books and if you read between the lines you can see a lot of stuff coming. I've read some of the books more than 10 times and no joke, I still find something new that I'd not noticed before. Like little connections between REALLY minor characters, hints about the history of the world the books are set, working out the mechanics of the way the world works. How one man did all this I will never know. If you ever make it through the books I will be able to tell you intricacies to the plot that you will never have picked up on on your first read that will blow your mind!!

[Tomislav95]

With my pace I will finish it in apx 30 years I started reading actively only 3 years ago, right now I'm in college so I read only between semesters. This is the reason why I don't want to start reading those big series
Is it bad that I don't think Tolkien is that good? I mean, story and world are great but his style bored me so much I could't read more than one or two chapters in one sitting.

[twosuitsluke]

No, it's a fair comment. He was obviously the forefather of all fantasy so he spawned a lot of fantasy writers but I don't think he's the best at it. I found TLotR a harder set of books to get through than WoT, even though they are way shorter. People love Tolkien because he created this whole world with history and languages which is really cool but it didn't excite me so much. WoT has a completely different feel after the first book. I found all the long songs and things like that in LotR boring.

If you read the first Wheel of Time book and like it (or even just think it's ok) then please at least read the next two. If you're not hooked after the climaxes in either the second or third books it's probably not for you. Book 4 is when the series starts to grow and explore more than the main characters, even though they are still central, and sub plots start up. God, I get goose bumps just thinking about all the amazing scenes that happen just in those first 4 books.

[Tomislav95]

That's cool
I may get the first book and see if I like it...but after I finish some books I have right now. There are too many good books (should I be happy or sad because of it )

[Cool Chris]

I have been looking for a new series or saga to sink my teeth in to. My reading queue is pretty light. I am not a huge fantasy fan, but I have loved A Song of Ice and Fire so much more than I expected. This series looks a bit daunting though.

[twosuitsluke]

I have been looking for a new series or saga to sink my teeth in to. My reading queue is pretty light. I am not a huge fantasy fan, but I have loved A Song of Ice and Fire so much more than I expected. This series looks a bit daunting though.

It is different to SoIaF but so much better IMO. What is it you like about SoIaF? If it's the fact that it's quite gritty and more realistic, in the way that characters get unceremoniously killed off and it's more 'real' the WoT is quite different.

However, a few cool points about WoT and how it deals with problems that befall most fantasy series. Number one, it can be ridiculous how the main characters get out of many life threatening situations and it you get to the point where there's never any danger that your favourite characters aren't going to pull through. This is why SoIaF is so refreshing, no one is safe!! WoT deals with that in it's own way. Some of the main characters become, early on in the story, something that essentially means fate is twisted around them. They inadvertently mess with chance and probability which is a mechanic of why they scrape through certain situations. It's just one of the great ways Jordan explains so much about his universe and how everything works. Very few things 'just happen', with no explanation as to the mechanics of WHY they happen, in the story.

Secondly, fantasy stories can sometimes draw heavily from Greek or Norse mythology, religion, Jesus etc. In Jordan's world time is a wheel, ages come and go and them come again. The story is essentially set in our world but so far in the future that everything about our time is legend and myth. There are stories about us going into space but everything has been lost and changed in the retelling. In the same way as our present is legend and myth in the story, because time is a wheel, the events in the books essentially become OUR legends and myths. That may be seen as a bit of a cop out but I LOVE it. All the facts and names got mixed and blurred in the retelling but so many of out myths, legends and religions could be based on what happens in The Wheel of Time series. I could give lots of examples but the last thing I want to do is spoil anything. Again, I just want to show how well crafted Jordan's world is. It's fascinating.