Author Topic: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?  (Read 2507 times)

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Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2016, 12:30:12 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:07:04 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2016, 12:31:49 PM »
"I have the right" is basically the same argument as "It's not impinging on their rights". Defending the moral right-or-wrongness of something based on its legality is an extremely flimsy position.


But isn't this the real crux of the argument, though?  Because, increasingly, those that feel like they have the moral high ground are increasingly looking to get the legality changed in their favor.  This is not the argument of those who want to be a "dick"; it's rather the defense of a position by those same people in the face of OTHERS wanting to equate the two irreparably in our society.

Live and let live goes both ways, Genowyn.   What you don't always see - and what doesn't always come out in these conversations - is I would defend the right of some guy to date another guy as vociferously as I would defend the right of some guy to call women "girl".  I recognize that it a) ought not be that way, and b) is hard to process for some, but there ARE people offended by the former.  So if you give weight to the person who is offended by "girl" because it is an attack against their gender, but not give weight to the person who is offended by what some perceive as an attack on their sexual preference, you're just picking sides, arbitrarily. 

As I've said before, I wouldn't agree with anyone who wants to put legislation in place for this sort of thing. Personally I think wanting to make homosexuality illegal is a touch more odious than wanting to make using offensive phrases illegal, but again, I would be opposed to either.

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Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2016, 12:35:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:07:16 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2016, 12:38:36 PM »
It was specifically a response to Stadler related to the concept of those words having a power rooted in history.

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Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2016, 12:44:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:07:29 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2016, 12:47:37 PM »
So what I mean is basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK5KmhLKEwM (NSFW for sure)

The guy here is an actual gay comedian, and wrote this monologue or whatever you want to call it himself.

Well, notwithstanding that is a controlled environment, that's not how it plays out in the real world, unfortunately.  Most people aren't so sanguine about "use it, but just think about where it came from".   He's not calling for "ramifications" as you do later in this very post.   I don't have a problem with that guy's message (and I would personally be proud if I came up with that monologue), but it's not a proxy for the message about being offended.   

Quote
Well obviously anyone is free to be inconsiderate, but as we've discussed before, I think that there are gonna be certain social ramifications for that. If someone thinks those social ramifications are worth being able to say whatever asinine shit that they want, then that's good for them.

Again, though, great in theory, shitty in practice.  Who gets to decide the appropriate "ramification".  Do I get to lose my job if I call someone on a forum like this an inconsiderate term?  Does my family get to be put in harm's way, because I use an inconsiderate term?   The "ramifications" you so casually speak of is really where the rubber meets the road. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2016, 12:50:01 PM »

As I've said before, I wouldn't agree with anyone who wants to put legislation in place for this sort of thing. Personally I think wanting to make homosexuality illegal is a touch more odious than wanting to make using offensive phrases illegal, but again, I would be opposed to either.

Remember too that one is "action" and one is "thought" (or "speech", if you'd rather).  They are not, legally, handled the same way.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2016, 12:53:40 PM »
And part of the Louis CK monologue was "it offends me when YOU say it because I know you mean it".  So there's that.

Well context is definitely important, which is what I meant by "You've gotta mind the TPO".

I am not tumblr, and whenever we get into this conversation around here it seems like people attach every argument from that side to my own, but that's not the stance that I'm taking.


Again, though, great in theory, shitty in practice.  Who gets to decide the appropriate "ramification".  Do I get to lose my job if I call someone on a forum like this an inconsiderate term?  Does my family get to be put in harm's way, because I use an inconsiderate term?   The "ramifications" you so casually speak of is really where the rubber meets the road. 

As I've said before, I mean *social* ramifications. To give an example, I was visiting a friend who invited over another friend of his. That other friend talked about passing an Asian person on the street and wishing he could beat them to death. The fact that my friend was comfortable being around this person made me uncomfortable being around him by proxy, and I stopped hanging out with him as much.

I used to get a ride from a guy at work who would often say a bunch of stuff that came across as sexist and racist to me. I ended up finding another way to get to and from work and not talking to him as much.

Social ramifications.

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Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2016, 12:54:15 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:07:56 PM by Calvin6s »

Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2016, 01:00:21 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:08:15 PM by Calvin6s »

Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2016, 01:02:00 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:08:26 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2016, 01:03:47 PM »
Difference is your example is sort of ridiculous and I would be quite surprised if it ever happened in real life.

If we're on the girl thing, I think an appropriate example is if you were dating a woman and insisted on calling her girl, which made her feel uncomfortable and infantilized, and so she broke up with you.


The fact of the matter is j had a decent point. 

The fact of the matter is Genowyn had a decent point, but not at the expense of j's point.

did you just respond to yourself

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Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2016, 01:06:10 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:08:44 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline j

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2016, 02:18:07 PM »
Really, there doesn't seem to be much actual disagreement here.  I agree Genowyn that if I am talking to somebody and inadvertently offend them, I will happily make a reasonable effort to accommodate their sensibilities, or I will face social consequences.  I think you agree that going so far as to *forbid* the use of "offensive" terms is not a solution to anything.  Honestly I don't think words with "historical connotations" or whatever should be treated any differently, but that's a terrible topic I'd rather not get into.

My only gripe is of the "ought" variety: people ought to be less sensitive to words said by strangers, and people ought to be more willing to make minor setting-dependent changes to their vocabulary to avoid making others feel bad.  And when a person fails on either count, as we all frequently do, people ought to be more understanding.

But gun to my head, I always come down on the side of personal responsibility: if someone says something that offends you, learn to not let it bother you.  Period.  That is the only solution, because trying to change THAT person is a losing proposition.  A racist guy being forced not to say a racial slur does not make him a non-racist.  There will always be people who think differently than you, often in ways that could "offend" you if you let them, but that is a choice you get to make.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2016, 02:39:30 PM »
As I've said before, I mean *social* ramifications. To give an example, I was visiting a friend who invited over another friend of his. That other friend talked about passing an Asian person on the street and wishing he could beat them to death. The fact that my friend was comfortable being around this person made me uncomfortable being around him by proxy, and I stopped hanging out with him as much.

I used to get a ride from a guy at work who would often say a bunch of stuff that came across as sexist and racist to me. I ended up finding another way to get to and from work and not talking to him as much.

Social ramifications.

Put on your ice skates, because hell is freezing over.  That's perfectly fine with me, and that is EXACTLY the way I think it SHOULD be handled.  On a person-to-person basis.  But you shouldn't take your choice to Twitter. I'll go back later and see, but for the life of me, I don't even know why we even KNOW about this "Girl" thing.  Handle it one on one and be done with it.  Tend your own garden. 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:54:49 AM by Stadler »

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2016, 02:42:46 PM »
*staggers*

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2016, 05:10:29 PM »
I firmly hold to Principle X: "One shouldn't care about the terms others use to refer to him."

Therefore, I also hold that one shouldn't care about being referred to as a "girl," chick," w/e.

Others will thus refer to me as a jerk.

But by Principle X, one shouldn't care about being referred to as a "jerk."

Therefore, I don't care if people refer to me as a jerk.

Conversation over.
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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2016, 05:57:35 PM »
So hef, with that, ima start calling the artist formerly known as H and everyone else "chicken fucker" since, you know, they shouldn't care. Cool?

Calvin6s

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2016, 05:59:53 PM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 05:09:06 PM by Calvin6s »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2016, 07:13:37 PM »


I think that's an easy position to take from the position of power. Assuming you're a straight, male, Anglo-Saxon (or at least white) in America, there is really no slur that can be used against you that has any meaningful history behind it.

As someone who is 62.5% Irish, I can say that your statement is false.

Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2016, 07:19:22 PM »


I think that's an easy position to take from the position of power. Assuming you're a straight, male, Anglo-Saxon (or at least white) in America, there is really no slur that can be used against you that has any meaningful history behind it.

As someone who is 62.5% Irish, I can say that your statement is false.

Well that's why I specified Anglo-Saxon initially. There are plenty of slurs to go around for Germans, Polish people, Irish people, etc

...my name is Araragi.

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2016, 08:25:28 PM »
So hef, with that, ima start calling the artist formerly known as H and everyone else "chicken fucker" since, you know, they shouldn't care. Cool?
Go right ahead sweet cheeks.
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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2016, 08:53:23 PM »
I've seen them.  They are.
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Offline Genowyn

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2016, 09:01:19 PM »
So hef, with that, ima start calling the artist formerly known as H and everyone else "chicken fucker" since, you know, they shouldn't care. Cool?
Go right ahead sweet cheeks.

I can finally start calling you Torii. Why is your name a torii?

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2016, 07:56:15 AM »
So hef, with that, ima start calling the artist formerly known as H and everyone else "chicken fucker" since, you know, they shouldn't care. Cool?

Tend your own garden.  No, they shouldn't care, but if you are tending your own garden, you shouldn't be antagonizing. 

That's how the "social contract", such that it is (that's not really what the social contract is, but I use that term because it's something people understand), is supposed to work. 

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2016, 07:57:23 AM »
I've seen them.  They are.

What's the emoji for that sound of a phonograph needle being forcibly ripped off a record....

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2016, 08:53:39 AM »
So hef, with that, ima start calling the artist formerly known as H and everyone else "chicken fucker" since, you know, they shouldn't care. Cool?
I'm not the one who said people shouldn't care what people call them.
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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2016, 09:00:38 AM »
Oh, I know, it's just that you're the latest mod to be involved in the discussion, so I figured I'd give you a heads up.

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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #98 on: February 24, 2016, 10:15:55 AM »
Oh I see.
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Re: Do you find the word "girl" offensive?
« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2016, 12:03:46 AM »
In casual conversation with an acquaintance, I referred to a female friend of mine as a "girl". (She's twenty.) I was immediately called out as sexist. According to the accuser, the word is infantilizing (sp.?) and objectifying. I looked it up and, sure enough, there is heated debate over this.

Here is a terse opinion piece in the Guardian from 2014 on the subject if you are interested: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/27/is-the-word-girl-offensive

I've been thinking about it. I personally am not bothered by the word, but I certainly don't want to be offensive. I can see how it could be insulting/belittling. Nevertheless, we don't hear equal uproar over the words "boy" and "guy", so I am suspicious that my accuser was just being a persnickety stinker.

What you y'all think about this?

I think it's stupid if I'm honest. Too many other more important things to bitch about. If it were me, I would intentionally refer to any female person as a "cunt",  when speaking to this acquaintance. When they bristle, I'd say, " Well I didn't want to bunch up your panties by calling her a girl."
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