The Official Yes Thread

[Orbert]

But as much as I love Jon Anderson's voice and singing, he's a dick.  He had a fucking temper tantrum, again, and quit the band, again, and this time he even sold his shares of the band name because he said he was done, really, for sure, this time.  Oh yeah, but in interviews now he's "I always hope to reunite with the band".

I wouldn't go as far as calling Jon Anderson that!  He did get really sick for a while and nearly died with a respiratory condition and the band went on without him.  Jon Anderson is the voice of Yes and the other two singers don't even come remotely close to filling those shoes.  I met Jon Anderson and he was a very nice down to earth guy and gave me the time of day.  I don't know what goes on behind closed doors in the band room but I couldn't see him throwing temper tantrums of that nature. He knows what he wants musically and probably isn't afraid to voice that.
Yes is not Yes without JA,  it's just a business..   

He got really sick, but the band waited for him.  And waited.  Most of them had other projects, so it's not like they were just sitting around, but over a year later, after not hearing anything from him, they found out that he was putting his solo tour together, because he'd gotten better but never contacted them.

He knew they were waiting, and until that point they still wanted him back, but instead he decided to do his solo thing.  That's when they found another singer and moved on.

Okay, I used a little poetic license; I don't know that he actually had a tantrum.  Maybe he was actually very calm during the whole thing.  But he did quit the band and sold his shares because he had no intention of ever working with them again; he was done with Yes. 

[Architeuthis]

But as much as I love Jon Anderson's voice and singing, he's a dick.  He had a fucking temper tantrum, again, and quit the band, again, and this time he even sold his shares of the band name because he said he was done, really, for sure, this time.  Oh yeah, but in interviews now he's "I always hope to reunite with the band".

I wouldn't go as far as calling Jon Anderson that!  He did get really sick for a while and nearly died with a respiratory condition and the band went on without him.  Jon Anderson is the voice of Yes and the other two singers don't even come remotely close to filling those shoes.  I met Jon Anderson and he was a very nice down to earth guy and gave me the time of day.  I don't know what goes on behind closed doors in the band room but I couldn't see him throwing temper tantrums of that nature. He knows what he wants musically and probably isn't afraid to voice that.
Yes is not Yes without JA,  it's just a business..   

He got really sick, but the band waited for him.  And waited.  Most of them had other projects, so it's not like they were just sitting around, but over a year later, after not hearing anything from him, they found out that he was putting his solo tour together, because he'd gotten better but never contacted them.

He knew they were waiting, and until that point they still wanted him back, but instead he decided to do his solo thing.  That's when they found another singer and moved on.

Understandable from the band's viewpoint and management.  I know Jon always wanted to do a solo project, but I didn't realize he left Yes on his own initiative. Thanks for clearing that up.

[ytserush]

If you want the real reason behind anything Yes does, follow the money. These guys (all of them) really stopped caring about the pure musical side of things decades ago. Since the late 70s, it's just been fighting over money and trying to milk whatever remains of the cash cow.

[reason for edit: to try to make my opinion sound less like was stating a fact]

Going For The One was really the beginning of that road. While I like most of the albums that came after that. The vibe totally changed for me when Wakeman came back.

[ytserush]

Thanks.    As many here know, Yes is my favorite band and has been for many years.  But their history has some really messed-up shit.  Maybe no more than a lot of bands, but it seems so counter to the glorious, positive vibe that permeates their music.  Being a raving egomaniac is practically a requirement to be in the band, because if you're not, you'll never get any of your ideas across, let alone on a record.

I'd almost argue that it is more messed  up than other bands over the last 40 years. The problem for me is I enjoy most of the music so damn much that I overlooked a lot of it over the years until around about 1998 when it kind of became too much for me. But I just enjoy the music for what it is. (About 75 percent of it anyway.)

[ytserush]

Same here.  Absolutely breathtaking, every time.  And yet it was the product of a band almost actively trying to destroy itself with all the infighting.

But also, it was the 70's.  Lots of weed, in the practice rooms and in the studio.  They got stoned, chilled out, and forgot about all the crap, until next time.

I perceived the tension in that music long before I knew what was going on. It's always been there for me. It sort of eased up with Drama ironically enough.

[ytserush]

But as much as I love Jon Anderson's voice and singing, he's a dick.  He had a fucking temper tantrum, again, and quit the band, again, and this time he even sold his shares of the band name because he said he was done, really, for sure, this time.  Oh yeah, but in interviews now he's "I always hope to reunite with the band".

I wouldn't go as far as calling Jon Anderson that!  He did get really sick for a while and nearly died with a respiratory condition and the band went on without him.  Jon Anderson is the voice of Yes and the other two singers don't even come remotely close to filling those shoes.  I met Jon Anderson and he was a very nice down to earth guy and gave me the time of day.  I don't know what goes on behind closed doors in the band room but I couldn't see him throwing temper tantrums of that nature. He knows what he wants musically and probably isn't afraid to voice that.
Yes is not Yes without JA,  it's just a business..   

He got really sick, but the band waited for him.  And waited.  Most of them had other projects, so it's not like they were just sitting around, but over a year later, after not hearing anything from him, they found out that he was putting his solo tour together, because he'd gotten better but never contacted them.

He knew they were waiting, and until that point they still wanted him back, but instead he decided to do his solo thing.  That's when they found another singer and moved on.

Okay, I used a little poetic license; I don't know that he actually had a tantrum.  Maybe he was actually very calm during the whole thing.  But he did quit the band and sold his shares because he had no intention of ever working with them again; he was done with Yes.

Wasn't that about the time he found the Internet?

[Orbert]

I don't know.  Do you think might have affected his decision, or his feelings about getting back together with Yes?

[KevShmev]

Call me crazy, but to me the three biggest things I identify with as far as Yes goes are:

1) their vocal harmonies
2) Jon Anderson's voice as the lead singer
3) Chris Squire's bass playing

I really like this, and agree 100%.

 

as does Fly From Here: Return Trip (it's a continuation of Drama, same lineup. I love it.)

I still need to hear that.  I thought the original release was solid, with a few really good tunes, but not something I felt I needed a "better" version of, if that makes sense.

I agree as long as (1) these things are not necessarily in order of importance, (2) the vocal harmonies specifically include Chris Squire, and (3) you also include Steve Howe's eclectic guitar work on equal footing with the rest of these.  I generally like 90125, but it's really a different animal (as Lupton explained from a different POV), and the reason is because of Trevor Rabin's BIG, rock guitar playing in place of Howe's playing.

Nope, not in order of importance, just a list of three things. 

I do not include Steve Howe's guitar work on equal footing with the three things I listed. Maybe it's because I became a Yes fan thanks to the hits from 90125 and Big Generator, but to say Howe's guitar work is as important as anything in Yes feels like it would be dismissive of Trevor Rabin's work with the band, and that is not a road I will ever go down.

[Architeuthis]

Agreed KevShmev,   Trevor Rabin is one of my favorite Yes members and also one of my favorite musicians of all time.  Even though it was a whole different direction, his work in Yes is brilliant!  He even brought the band their #1 greatest hit, which is my least favorite song on 90125.
Big Generator and Talk are both amazing albums, and his songs on Union are awesomeness! 

[Stadler]

I actually love the Rabin years (and AS A WHOLE*, they are better than the non-Rabin years) and they fit the criteria:

Anderson, check! Harmonies, check! The Fish, check!



* What I mean is, there are three Rabin-led albums: 90210, Big Penetrator, and Talk, with four other songs on Onion.  That's 30 songs, +/-, not including unreleased stuff.   It is my humble opinion that the best of those tracks are pretty close to the equal of any of the "classic" material, and the WORST of those tracks is far better than some of the low points of the "classic" material.  There is no Open Your Eyes or Heaven And Earth, there is no "Circus of Heaven", "Angkor Wat", or 'Janie's living on crack time, crack time!' in the Rabin Years.)

[Max Kuehnau]

Onion  

[Orbert]

Rick Wakeman always calls it "Onion".  I assumed it's because it's so layered (onions have layers, like ogres) but he says it because it always makes him cry. 


Stadler, you also have to consider that there's a lot more non-Rabin stuff than Rabin stuff.  Rabin's on 3.5 albums out of 20 or something, so it's not really a fair comparison.

I agree with you that the "average quality index" of all Rabin songs is probably higher than that of all non-Rabin songs, and also that you can find low points in the non-Rabin years that are lower than the lowest lows of the Rabin era.  Rabin's contributions have been pretty consistent, pretty consistently good.  But nothing on any Rabin-era album comes close to "Awaken", "Close to the Edge", or "Gates of Delerium".  People talk about "Endless Dream" sometimes, but come on, that song isn't even in the same league.  It's a longer tune with some changes and ambience and it's very nice, but it's not transcendent like the 70's material.  It feels calculated to be impressive and awesome, instead of impressive and awesome just because it is.  I'll still take "Mind Drive" or even "Crack Time" over "Endless Dream".

[Architeuthis]

* What I mean is, there are three Rabin-led albums: 90210, Big Penetrator, and Talk, with four other songs on Onion.  That's 30 songs, +/-, not including unreleased stuff.   It is my humble opinion that the best of those tracks are pretty close to the equal of any of the "classic" material, and the WORST of those tracks is far better than some of the low points of the "classic" material.  There is no Open Your Eyes or Heaven And Earth, there is no "Circus of Heaven", "Angkor Wat", or 'Janie's living on crack time, crack time!' in the Rabin Years.)

Agreed, on every point here!    Those "cracktime cracktime" lyrics are pretty cringeworthy and almost ruin what could have been a pretty great song.   

[pg1067]

I agree as long as (1) these things are not necessarily in order of importance, (2) the vocal harmonies specifically include Chris Squire, and (3) you also include Steve Howe's eclectic guitar work on equal footing with the rest of these.  I generally like 90125, but it's really a different animal (as Lupton explained from a different POV), and the reason is because of Trevor Rabin's BIG, rock guitar playing in place of Howe's playing.

Nope, not in order of importance, just a list of three things. 

I do not include Steve Howe's guitar work on equal footing with the three things I listed. Maybe it's because I became a Yes fan thanks to the hits from 90125 and Big Generator, but to say Howe's guitar work is as important as anything in Yes feels like it would be dismissive of Trevor Rabin's work with the band, and that is not a road I will ever go down.

I'm almost certain that 90125 was the first Yes that I heard.  I liked it then, and I like it now (Changes is one of my favorite all time Yes songs).  Big Generator has a couple worthwhile songs, and Talk just blew hard (as does the Rabin material on Union).  I didn't become a FAN of Yes until I heard the classic era material, so our perspectives being different, it stands to reason we feel differently about the importance of Howe's guitar work.

[Kwyjibo]

I really like the Rabin years and I like Rabin's playing style a lot more than Howe's, but Howe was still an integral part to the great Yes records of the 70s.

[Orbert]

[Stadler]

Rick Wakeman always calls it "Onion".  I assumed it's because it's so layered (onions have layers, like ogres) but he says it because it always makes him cry. 


Stadler, you also have to consider that there's a lot more non-Rabin stuff than Rabin stuff.  Rabin's on 3.5 albums out of 20 or something, so it's not really a fair comparison.

I agree with you that the "average quality index" of all Rabin songs is probably higher than that of all non-Rabin songs, and also that you can find low points in the non-Rabin years that are lower than the lowest lows of the Rabin era.  Rabin's contributions have been pretty consistent, pretty consistently good.  But nothing on any Rabin-era album comes close to "Awaken", "Close to the Edge", or "Gates of Delerium".  People talk about "Endless Dream" sometimes, but come on, that song isn't even in the same league.  It's a longer tune with some changes and ambience and it's very nice, but it's not transcendent like the 70's material.  It feels calculated to be impressive and awesome, instead of impressive and awesome just because it is.  I'll still take "Mind Drive" or even "Crack Time" over "Endless Dream".

All opinion, of course, but I think the best of the Rabin era - Hearts, Shoot High, Aim Low, Lift Me Up, any of the first four songs on Talk - absolutely rivals all but the very best of the Anderson years (for me, the highlights are Starship Trooper, Heart Of The Sunrise, all of GFTO).  I don't hold Gates in that high a regard, frankly.   

[Lupton]

Just to add to what many are saying here. The Rabin material is excellent. When I was younger I had more of a disdain for the "poppy" side of 80s Yes simply out of principle, even though I would secretly admit to myself in moments when I let my "prog-guard" down that I enjoyed it. Ah..the stupid idiotic hang-ups of youth! Many years older now, I have no reservations in appreciating stuff that I once would have considered a "guilty pleasure". There are no musical pleasures that I consider guilty anymore. 90125 and Big Generator (and Talk to a lesser extent) are great albums in their own right. They may only be slightly Yes-sy, but it hardly matters because good music is good music.  This is the version of Rabin I want to hear live. I was fortunate enough to have caught the band live on the Talk tour and it was a tremendous show! Endless Dream was played that night. IMHO it's a disservice to Rabin's guitar prowess boxing him in to play vast swathes of material that are not his baby. I'd even rather hear him playing his solo material than attempting 70's Yes. OK starting to sound like a broken record...will stop.

But to disagree a little with Stadler (two of the songs he mentioned ^^^ I love), I concur with Orbert's assessment that the Rabin era has not produced any top tier "masterpieces". I probably consider the older Yes music to be some of my favorite music ever, so nothing will really ever come close to its magic. I even dig the first two efforts with Peter Banks probably almost as much as the Rabin years. Just me.

[gzarruk]

Rick Wakeman always calls it "Onion".  I assumed it's because it's so layered (onions have layers, like ogres) but he says it because it always makes him cry. 

There's a long interview with Rick that was posted here a while ago where he says that he hates (not the exact word he used) Union because the guy producing it (whoever that was) brought in a lot of guest musicians that had nothing to do with Yes and replaced some of the band members' parts with these session guys. He also replaced a lot of the keyboard stuff with sequencers, "this isn't what I played", so Rick was obviously mad about that.

[Orbert]

I don't hold Gates in that high a regard, frankly.   

Gates is the one that took me the longest to grok in fullness.  Finally happened after the Steven Wilson 5.1 Blu-ray.  Musical orgasm right there in the living room.  Good thing nobody else was home at the time, although I did of course plan it that way.   

[Stadler]

Rick Wakeman always calls it "Onion".  I assumed it's because it's so layered (onions have layers, like ogres) but he says it because it always makes him cry. 

There's a long interview with Rick that was posted here a while ago where he says that he hates (not the exact word he used) Union because the guy producing it (whoever that was) brought in a lot of guest musicians that had nothing to do with Yes and replaced some of the band members' parts with these session guys. He also replaced a lot of the keyboard stuff with sequencers, "this isn't what I played", so Rick was obviously mad about that.

Jonathan Elias.   Butcher. 

I'd love to hear a "Union (Naked)" or "Union - Return Trip", with the music the band put down.   Also, while I like and have respect for Tony Levin, Squire needed to be on that AWBH material, stat.   He's one of the more unique sounding bass players in the bizniss, and the difference between the two 'camps' is evidence in that context.

[IDontNotDoThings]

There are some demos floating around for the Union sessions. Apparently the one for Without Hope You Cannot Start The Day (then known as Must Be Love) is pretty infamous for being better than the final version, but I listened to it & didn't think it was that much of an improvement.

Lift Me Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hcQhBtqJJ0
Must Be Love: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F1oBiKAHHA
Silent Talking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bFHKGN4aLQ
Dangerous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTw27OmJF30
Holding On: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZIzMzfQH8U
Take The Water To The Mountain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKnte_mZMSs
Shot In The Dark (unreleased): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Mr-lOpXKw

& yeah, I still love the final version of Union. Fight me

[pg1067]

All opinion, of course, but I think the best of the Rabin era - Hearts, Shoot High, Aim Low, Lift Me Up, any of the first four songs on Talk - absolutely rivals all but the very best of the Anderson years (for me, the highlights are Starship Trooper, Heart Of The Sunrise, all of GFTO).  I don't hold Gates in that high a regard, frankly.

More opinions:

All of the following are "better" than any Rabin-era song:

Yours Is No Disgrace
Starship Trooper
Perpetual Change
Roundabout
South Side of the Sky
Heart of the Sunrise
Close to the Edge
And You and I
Siberian Khatru
The Revealing Science of God
The Remembering
The Ancient
Ritual
Gates of Delirium
Turn of the Century
Parallels (the live version on Yesshows)
Awaken
Don't Kill the Whale
Onward
Machine Messiah
Into the Lens
Tempus Fugit

And probably a couple post-Union songs that I can't think of off the top of my head.

[KevShmev]

You lost me the second you listed anything from Tormato , although the live version of Onward from the Keys live CD is really nice.

Orbert, while I agree that Endless Dream might not be as transcendent* as some of those 70's epics, I think it is still pretty awesome.  The Yes harmonies with Anderson, Squire and Rabin were their best ones, and the ones in Endless Dream are just amazing. 

*Great word to describe their music, BTW.

[SoundscapeMN]

Mind Drive?

I find it to be the best Yes track the last 38 years.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I was going to make a list of songs I like better than any Rabin-era track, but since The More We Live (Let Go) exists, that list is reduced to only Close To The Edge & Heart Of The Sunrise 

[Orbert]

Orbert, while I agree that Endless Dream might not be as transcendent* as some of those 70's epics, I think it is still pretty awesome.  The Yes harmonies with Anderson, Squire and Rabin were their best ones, and the ones in Endless Dream are just amazing. 

*Great word to describe their music, BTW.

Thanks.  I'm trying to find different ways to say that Yes during the Rabin years was very good, but just doesn't resonate with me the way Howe stuff -- and especially Howe with Wakeman -- grabs me.  The Rabin material sounds mostly like Rabin's work, and it was.  We do have the Yes harmonies which sound great, and it's all polished to a clean, brilliant shiny sound, but there's a sterility to it.  As nice as it all sounds, it just doesn't move me.  I don't feel it.  Howe's playing has just enough "sloppiness" to it to make it sound more real to me than the computer-precise perfection of Rabin's playing.  Wakeman has some weird sounds that don't always work 100%, and somehow I prefer that to the sterile perfection of Rabin's programmed keyboards.

90125 is easily my favorite Rabin-era album, and it was produced by Trevor Horn, which is probably why I love the sound of that album.  It has a warmth to it.  Big Generator and Talk sound cold to me, if that makes any sense.

[KevShmev]

I know what you mean regarding Howe's "sloppiness."  There are times where his playing sounds like he's about to lose it, yet somehow keeps it together, which adds a bit of a frantic element.  I think the first 13 minutes of The Ancient is a good example of this.

It goes without saying that Howe and Rabin have completely different styles and approaches, and Howe would certainly rank higher on my list of favorite guitarists, but I love the sheen and more hard rock approach of much of the Rabin material.  Very different from the classic 70's material obviously, but once you add in the three elements I mentioned prior (their harmonies, Anderson's lead singing, Squire's bass), it sounds like, well, Yes, at least to me.

And I with ya regarding Gates of Delirium.  Easily a top 5 Yes tune in my book, and there are days where I might even put it at number 1.

[King Postwhore]

I saw the Union tour twice.  However was miserable and Rabin was living it up. I loved both for different reasons but that stuck with me.


I read years later how Wakeman would egg Rabin into going next to Howe to piss him off. 

[Stadler]

Yours Is No Disgrace - YES
Starship Trooper - YES
Perpetual Change - NO
Roundabout - EVEN
South Side of the Sky - YES
Heart of the Sunrise - YES (Maybe my favorite Yes song ever)
Close to the Edge - EVEN
And You and I - YES
Siberian Khatru - NO
The Revealing Science of God - EVEN
The Remembering - NO
The Ancient - NO
Ritual - NO
Gates of Delirium - NO
Turn of the Century - YES (If not "Heart" then this)
Parallels (the live version on Yesshows) - NO
Awaken - YES
Don't Kill the Whale - NO
Onward - NO
Machine Messiah - NO
Into the Lens - NO
Tempus Fugit - YES

But the real point is on the other side... what's the "worst" Rabin era song?   Rhythm Of Love?   Big Penetrator?   City of Love?   Any of those are far, FAR better than Arriving UFO, Circus Of Heaven, ALL of Open Your Eyes, Ankor Wat, most of The Ladder....

I actually do not disagree with most of the comments here; the best Yes is that with Howe/Wakeman/Squire at its core; I just think the range is broader in the non-Rabin material.  The gap between the best and the worst, so to speak. 

[KevShmev]

Well, like Orbert pointed out, there is a ton more material without Rabin than with, but I don't think Yes made a bad song with Rabin.  Even the least best ones like Saving My Heart, Almost Like Love and Our Song are all still solid tunes at worst.

As for The Ladder, while I don't like it as much as I did at first, it does have some standout Yes tracks for me, most notably Homeworld, Face to Face, The Messenger and Nine Voices. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

The worst Rabin-era song is Big Generator, easily, & I'd say the only non-Rabin-era songs worse than it are some of the songs from Open Your Eyes.

I don't think this is a fair comparison though. You're comparing the worst song out of 3 and a half albums to the worst songs out of 17 and a half albums. It's fair more likely that the latter is going to have a worse song than the former.

[Kwyjibo]

Almost Like Love and Our Song are among the better Rabin songs imo and I also like Rhythm Of Love and Big Generator. The cheesy ones like Saving My Heart, Lift Me Up, Love Will Find A Way etc. are the ones I could do without.

[Architeuthis]

Almost Like Love and Our Song are among the better Rabin songs imo and I also like Rhythm Of Love and Big Generator. The cheesy ones like Saving My Heart, Lift Me Up, Love Will Find A Way etc. are the ones I could do without.

Lift Me Up is cheesy??   

[frogprog]

Did anyone catch The recent Jon Anderson Big Interview with Dan Rather? I usually really enjoy those but I found Jon to be ....just weird. I know he has always been trippy but he was very awkward,a lot non-answers and Dan had to pull a lot of the answers out of him. It almost seemed like Dan was extremely relieved when the interview was over