2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell

[cramx3]

Should have added something like "and you only have 20 minutes left to do it" or whatever amount of time was left

[TAC]

 

[King Postwhore]

[/quote


This is on my phone.

[Stadler]

Both perfectly legit calls.  I can't really have much respect for the view that either constitutes a "choke" somehow.  Just seems like a feeble attempt to explain away the fact that someone didn't like who won/lost.

Bosk, I'm with you, and that was my point in putting that up there.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't, and the only common denominator in both is that Matt Patricia saw it coming and his defense made the play they needed to make. 

[KevShmev]

That's understood.  Brady is the big cog that everybody runs off of.  Kev can we agree that even though Peyton's arm was dead last year his mind still as sharp as ever and with the help of the great D they had they won the SB.  It's showed this year that they needed Peyton's mind.

I see the same with Brady.  His mind is his greatest weapon. Keep in on his feet and he'll have you in any game.

Agreed, on all accounts. 

I just laugh when people say that the Broncos won the Super Bowl last year in spite of Manning.  No, Manning wasn't the player physically he used to be, but he still made tons of plays that helped them with his brain.  And yeah, they missed that this year.  Siemian had good numbers overall, but he doesn't have the brain Manning does to walk up the line, see what the defense is showing, and then audible to another play based on what they are showing. 

Same thing with Brady.  Some like to say, "Yeah, but he is throwing short passes to guys who are always open," but a) they are open a lot because he gets them into a play call that works in their favor, and b) he can often find the open man pretty quickly.

It's a reason why they are the two best quarterbacks ever. 

[King Postwhore]

 

It's too bad the neck injury shortened his career.   I also find it weird that knowing the injury that Denver aired it out so much his first few years.

[KevShmev]

Well, he still played 17 full NFL seasons; that is pretty stellar.  Only two quarterbacks EVER have played more NFL games than Peyton Manning.

[King Postwhore]

He was still at such a high level though. I though he could still continue at that level.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18643426/atlanta-falcons-richard-smith-not-returning-defensive-coordinator

Falcons defensive coordinator Richard Smith will not continue in that role following Atlanta's historic collapse in Super Bowl LI, The Sporting News is reporting.

The website, citing sources, reported late Tuesday that Smith could be moved to another staff position, although it did not have details. Sporting News also reported that Bryan Cox will be replaced as defensive line coach.

The Falcons led the New England Patriots 28-3 early in the second half of Sunday's game but surrendered 31 consecutive points in a 34-28 overtime loss.

Wow! Scapegoat much?

[TAC]

Yeah, I just saw that. That is ridiculous. Earlier in the thread, I said the Falcons could be back in the SB next year. I take that back. That is bush league. Their defense was pretty good. But they got gassed late.
NO defense in the NFL can hang with the Patriots for 93 plays.

[Dublagent66]

Well yeah, if you can't keep Brady off the field then the D gets gassed which you can pretty much blame on the offense.

[bosk1]

That's understood.  Brady is the big cog that everybody runs off of.  Kev can we agree that even though Peyton's arm was dead last year his mind still as sharp as ever and with the help of the great D they had they won the SB.  It's showed this year that they needed Peyton's mind.

I see the same with Brady.  His mind is his greatest weapon. Keep in on his feet and he'll have you in any game.

Agreed, on all accounts. 

I just laugh when people say that the Broncos won the Super Bowl last year in spite of Manning.  No, Manning wasn't the player physically he used to be, but he still made tons of plays that helped them with his brain.  And yeah, they missed that this year.  Siemian had good numbers overall, but he doesn't have the brain Manning does to walk up the line, see what the defense is showing, and then audible to another play based on what they are showing. 

Same thing with Brady.  Some like to say, "Yeah, but he is throwing short passes to guys who are always open," but a) they are open a lot because he gets them into a play call that works in their favor, and b) he can often find the open man pretty quickly.

It's a reason why they are the two best quarterbacks ever. 

And to add to that, I don't think it is accurate at all to say he just throws to "open" receivers.  There were plenty of plays in this Super Bowl where his man was not "open," but Brady "threw him open," as the expression goes.  In other words, the coverage was pretty tight, but Brady put the ball in a place where, once the ball was in the air, the covered receiver was able to break away and make a move on the ball because of both the receiver's position on the defender and the position of the throw.  That takes both talent on the part of the QB and coaching/practice/discipline on the part of the receiver/BP combo. 

Manning had some of that as well.  Yeah, he may not have been able to throw many Elway fastballs.  But he wasn't only throwing up ducks to wide open guys the whole season either.  He was executing plays where he knew where to put the ball to allow his receivers to make plays.  That is every bit the hallmark of a great QB as being able to throw with some heat.

[Stadler]

I'm pretty sure it was Aikman that said it, and it might have been about Ryan, but I'm also pretty sure it was about Brady on a pass to Amendola late, but he said that Brady "threw his received open", meaning, the coverage was good, but the ball was thrown in the one spot that a) the receiver could make a play on it, and b) the defender couldn't, without commited (or getting away with) a penalty.  I really liked that phrase a lot, and I think it applies to a good portion of the Pats offense.  They don't need Julio Jones, they just need quick, disciplined guys to run the routes and be where Brady thinks they will be.   The only guy with real breakout speed is Hogan, but even he runs excellent routes underneath.   

[KevShmev]

What's really glaring is the lack of truly great head coaches in the NFL right now.  Yeah, everyone looks feeble compared to Belichick, but it used to be, you could look at the NFL and list at least 4-5 coaches would most call great.  Nowadays, besides Belichick, who is a truly great head coach?  Maybe Pete Carroll.  And that's it. 

[pogoowner]

Well Harbaugh has generally been listed near the top as well. They've lost a lot of personnel and had major injury problems the past few years, but if we see a Ravens resurgence, people will no doubt be listing him right at the top again.

The other guy that comes to mind is Andy Reid. Obviously he has his time management issues, but his teams have consistently been in contention for a very, very long time now.

I think people were ready to consider Bruce Arians in the "great" category as well, but Arizona had a down year.

[KevShmev]

I think Reid and Harbaugh are the next best two, but I wouldn't call either "truly great."   Fair or not, Reid needs a Super Bowl win to get into that category (or to make four straight like Marv Levy did), and the Ravens haven't been much of a powerhouse since their title win four years ago, so a bit of the shine is off Harbaugh.

[Dream Team]

Yeah, I just saw that. That is ridiculous. Earlier in the thread, I said the Falcons could be back in the SB next year. I take that back. That is bush league. Their defense was pretty good. But they got gassed late.
NO defense in the NFL can hang with the Patriots for 93 plays.

Totally. The Falcons O is 100% responsible for the gag job, including the horrific clock management.

Somewhat shockingly, I have discovered I have inadvertently become a Brady fan. For one thing, to me it seems he has toughened up his image a little over the last few years (minus that leg-warmer look). No more goofy haircuts and the whining for roughing flags seems to be a lot rarer. That was a reason other teams' forums called him Marcia Brady or Tom Lady. The other thing is that I like the way he handles criticism and adversity by taking the high road most of the time (not perfectly of course, like Belichick he has a tendency toward smugness). Lastly, not all of his emotional displays are appreciated but I was definitely feeling how much he cared for his parents during the SB coverage. It's obviously a very different dynamic being raised with 3 older sisters than having a bunch of brothers like Peyton did, which is probably one reason he wears his heart on his sleeve.

I keep going back to how crazy that game was. Do people realize how many things had to go wrong for the Falcons to lose, and every single one of them did? It's mind-boggling. How does Dan Quinn still have a job? Some of his players must be furious over his game management bungles.

I wonder if Belichick wants to coach long enough to prove he can win a SB without Brady?

[mikeyd23]

What's really glaring is the lack of truly great head coaches in the NFL right now.  Yeah, everyone looks feeble compared to Belichick, but it used to be, you could look at the NFL and list at least 4-5 coaches would most call great.  Nowadays, besides Belichick, who is a truly great head coach?  Maybe Pete Carroll.  And that's it.

I'd say there are two things shocking right now in the NFL in this vein. The lack of great head coaches and the lack of great quarterbacks.

I know Tom just won the SB, but he's going to be 40, he probably won't play for much longer, I can tell you Ben is already thinking about retiring, he probably will do so sooner rather than later. If those two guys retire, you are left with Rogers as the only great QB in the league, a couple real good guys like Ryan, Carr, Stafford, Luck, Dak, etc... but after that the rest of the league (for the most part) sucks at the most important position.

Just goes to show you that college programs are not prepping these QBs to play in the NFL. As a result, the NFL's product is getting worse.

[Stadler]

I think that last comment is accurate.  The college game is moving toward that "great athlete, not necessarily a great quarterback" at the position, as opposed to the "great quarterback, not necessarily a great athlete" model. 

The NFL game is too complex, too fast, too physical (look at Robert Griffin III; how Andrew Luck has been beat up) for that style of QB to create a career like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.   One of the beautiful aspects of the Belichick model is that even though it's a system, for the most part he doesn't have to worry about plugging and playing his QB.   That is the KEY to the Belichick system.  I get that everyone is saying that Brady is a "system QB", and (wrongly, in my view) pointing to the 3-1 start without him as proof of that (that was not sustainable, and anyone who saw the simplicity of that fourth game plan knows that),  but he can't plug in/out like he does with Lewis/White/Blount, and/or Amendola/Edelman/Mitchell/Hogan, etc. 

[King Postwhore]

The NFL moved towards the Athletic Athlete as well but the most important thing for a QB is the brain to process what he sees not the legs which should only be a bonus if you have the athleticism.

[El Barto]

What's really glaring is the lack of truly great head coaches in the NFL right now.  Yeah, everyone looks feeble compared to Belichick, but it used to be, you could look at the NFL and list at least 4-5 coaches would most call great.  Nowadays, besides Belichick, who is a truly great head coach?  Maybe Pete Carroll.  And that's it.

After his last super bowl I rank Carroll as elite. Easily. The only thing people remember is that he should have run on second down (wrongly, IMO), but the final minutes of that game were a freaking pressure cooker and the thought processes both coaches had going on was truly astonishing. Very few people can operate effectively in situations of high pressure like that. Certainly not many NFL coaches. Where he loses points in my book is in player discipline. He's got some huge egos on that team and he's not particularly effective at keeping them in check. He did well at holding them together this year, though.

The great quarterbacks thing is interesting. With the exception of Rogers, who was anointed the new Jesus before he ever even played, it takes a while for a player to reach the elite level. I don't really see anybody on that path. Wilson might still get there, but yeah, it's looking like when the remaining big three retire that's it for a while.

[mikeyd23]

I think that last comment is accurate.  The college game is moving toward that "great athlete, not necessarily a great quarterback" at the position, as opposed to the "great quarterback, not necessarily a great athlete" model. 

The NFL game is too complex, too fast, too physical (look at Robert Griffin III; how Andrew Luck has been beat up) for that style of QB to create a career like Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.   One of the beautiful aspects of the Belichick model is that even though it's a system, for the most part he doesn't have to worry about plugging and playing his QB.   That is the KEY to the Belichick system.  I get that everyone is saying that Brady is a "system QB", and (wrongly, in my view) pointing to the 3-1 start without him as proof of that (that was not sustainable, and anyone who saw the simplicity of that fourth game plan knows that),  but he can't plug in/out like he does with Lewis/White/Blount, and/or Amendola/Edelman/Mitchell/Hogan, etc.

The NFL moved towards the Athletic Athlete as well but the most important thing for a QB is the brain to process what he sees not the legs which should only be a bonus if you have the athleticism.

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the systems of offense. College programs tend to run offenses that require different things from QBs than NFL systems do.

I hate to bring him up, cause he's almost a cliche at this point, but Tebow was the perfect example. Was great in college, good athlete figured out how to win without really ever developing into a good pocket QB. He gets to the NFL and well... we all know the rest.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, contrary to popular belief, college football is not a farm league for the NFL.  The primary job of a college coach is NOT to prepare his players for the NFL - it's to win games and championships in college.

Sure, NFL success can be a good recruiting tool.  But that's gravy.  College coaches are going to go with what is best for their program, not what is best for the NFL.  They are also largely copycats, so since some programs have had success with more athletic QBs, that has been the direction a lot of them have gone lately.  It will swing back again.

[Stadler]

Well, contrary to popular belief, college football is not a farm league for the NFL.  The primary job of a college coach is NOT to prepare his players for the NFL - it's to win games and championships in college.

Sure, NFL success can be a good recruiting tool.  But that's gravy.  College coaches are going to go with what is best for their program, not what is best for the NFL.  They are also largely copycats, so since some programs have had success with more athletic QBs, that has been the direction a lot of them have gone lately.  It will swing back again.

No, no, I get that.   Lou Saban has an empire to run like anyone else in that position.  I get it.  I would have thought, though, that the players would demand a little more foresight.  Andrew Luck did.  Is it the standard athlete's arrogance that has a Robert Griffin III still thinking he can take on a 275 pound linebacker without having to carry his tibia to the sideline in a ziplock bag?

[hefdaddy42]

Who is Lou Saban?

[Destiny Of Chaos]

The NFL will be debuting its Developmental League in 2017. Should be interesting.

[pogoowner]

The NFL will be debuting its Developmental League in 2017. Should be interesting.

Just to be clear, last I heard, they don't actually have any affiliation with the NFL, and it's just 4 teams playing a short slate of games in Southern California. And I don't think it starts until 2018.

Edit: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/01/11/pacific-pro-football-league-developmental-college-ed-mccaffrey/96416744/

[mikeyd23]

Well, contrary to popular belief, college football is not a farm league for the NFL.  The primary job of a college coach is NOT to prepare his players for the NFL - it's to win games and championships in college.

Sure, NFL success can be a good recruiting tool.  But that's gravy.  College coaches are going to go with what is best for their program, not what is best for the NFL.  They are also largely copycats, so since some programs have had success with more athletic QBs, that has been the direction a lot of them have gone lately.  It will swing back again.

Yup, I agree that should be the priority for college programs, I wasn't saying colleges should change what they are doing to be a development league, I was just saying it seems like there aren't many good QBs that have come out of good college programs lately because the systems are different, that's all.

That all being said, I'd much rather see talented high school football players go into a development league rather than college and then work their way into football. Basically, something similar to baseball or hockey. In those sports you can play for a college if you want, or you can actually get paid and play in and environmental that balances wanting to win with developing players to make the next steps in their careers.

[Stadler]

Who is Lou Saban?

You know who he is. 

(That's my bad; I meant Nick Saban, but am just showing my age.  Lou Saban - likely not related, though Nick's dad's name is "Nick Lou Saban" - was a pro football coach in the '70's.)

Trivia about Lou Saban:  he was the first coach of the then Boston Patriots - now the New England Patriots - in the old AFL.   

[hefdaddy42]

Who is Lou Saban?

You know who he is. 

Just fuckin' with ya, partner. 

[PowerSlave]

I thought that he was getting him mixed up with Lou Holtz. Everyone that I know above the age of 40 (very much including myself) fucks up names on a regular basis.

[King Postwhore]

Watching the Inside The NFL Superbowl edition was electric.  So many goosebump moments.   I love hearing the players and coaches speak.

[KevShmev]

What's really glaring is the lack of truly great head coaches in the NFL right now.  Yeah, everyone looks feeble compared to Belichick, but it used to be, you could look at the NFL and list at least 4-5 coaches would most call great.  Nowadays, besides Belichick, who is a truly great head coach?  Maybe Pete Carroll.  And that's it.

After his last super bowl I rank Carroll as elite. Easily. The only thing people remember is that he should have run on second down (wrongly, IMO), but the final minutes of that game were a freaking pressure cooker and the thought processes both coaches had going on was truly astonishing. Very few people can operate effectively in situations of high pressure like that. Certainly not many NFL coaches. Where he loses points in my book is in player discipline. He's got some huge egos on that team and he's not particularly effective at keeping them in check. He did well at holding them together this year, though.

The great quarterbacks thing is interesting. With the exception of Rogers, who was anointed the new Jesus before he ever even played, it takes a while for a player to reach the elite level. I don't really see anybody on that path. Wilson might still get there, but yeah, it's looking like when the remaining big three retire that's it for a while.

I think Wilson is already elite. I put him around 3 or 4 in the QB rankings, alongside Brees, and below Rodgers and Brady (who are clearly the top two). 

But I think there are a few young QBs who could be elite very soon - Carr, Mariotta, Prescott, Winston, Luck (if we can still consider him a young QB).

[Cool Chris]

Watching the Inside The NFL Superbowl edition was electric.  So many goosebump moments.   I love hearing the players and coaches speak.

The "Mic'ed Up' thing is pretty cool.

Heard something interesting from Jason La Confora the other day. He was saying in the 3rd quarter when the Pats were moving the ball, but not with any sense of urgency, in real time he was wondering if Belichick told McDaniels to just control the ball and time of possession, to avoid being blown out. Obviously a moot point now. But an interesting thought.

[King Postwhore]

I'm not sure I believe that.  They always play 60 minutes and he always coaches his teams to not give up.  I'm thinking that they already had the time of possession on this team.  They were wearing them down and it was evident in the 4th quarter.  Atlanta was gassed by the 4th.