2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell

[hefdaddy42]

I'm just saying that football is not an individual sport, it's a team sport.  And most of the guys who are normally lauded as the greatest QBs ever happen to have been on some of the greatest teams ever.  And that's no coincidence.

Two-minute drills are easier to run if you are throwing to other HOFers than if you are throwing to whoever Phillip Rivers has been throwing to his whole career.  I don't think you can say any given player who has racked up the stats and longevity of Rivers is not a "winner" because he didn't have the team assembled around him that some other guys have. 

As good as Marino was, if he had had good RBs and even a good defense, there's no telling what he could have done.

[KevShmev]

If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Playoff record?  Super Bowls? 

I'll save you the Google:   4-5 in the post season, 84.5 QB rating.   Under 60% completion PCT., and 11/9 TD/INT ratio.    These are not elite QB numbers with the game/season on the line.    I fully understand that "team" is important, but you can't tell me that they haven't had more talent than guys like David Tyree and yet, Eli has two (LaDanian Tomlinson, for one, Antonio Gates for another). 

Look, we don't have to argue:  I simply think that the measure of a QB is what happens when the game/season is on the line.  Some guys come through with what is necessary to win the game - Brady, Manning(s), Brees (on occasion), Rodgers, Flacco, Roethlisberger - and some guys don't - Romo, and I put Rivers here.   If you think he's a good QB that's fine. I would probably take him on my fantasy team if I had no shot at the big number guys, and I'd probably do okay.

First off, the David Tyree comment was pointless, since it implies that Eli has spent his career throwing to scrubs like Tyree, when that is not true at all; Eli has almost always had at least one stud WR.  I am not sure Rivers has ever had a stud WR, although he did have a beastly Tomlinson for a while and Gates for all of his career.  Also, Eli had Coughlin, a likely HoF coach for most of his career, while Rivers had Schottenheimer for one and then mediocre/bad head coaches for the rest.

Second, Eli is not as good as Rivers.  Never has been, never will be.  Eli having two Super Bowls is like the flukiest thing ever, especially when you consider he has missed the playoffs in almost every other season he has been in the NFL.  He is not a QB who is good enough to get his team to the playoffs on a regular basis.  Eli needs a Buress, Nicks (in his prime), Cruz (pre-injury) or Beckham to be really good or great. Rivers, on the other hand, this year is playing great despite missing his number 1 WR, his great pass catching RB and his future HoF TE.  Oh, but his defense keeps blowing leads, so that means he's not good, right?

I actually agree with Stadler in that Rivers is not really a "winner".  Sure he wins games and sure he puts up good stats, but I don't believe he has "it".  I'd choose him on my team over most QBs, but I would not put him in the top tier of QB category.

I wouldn't either.  My argument has been that Rivers is not the horrible QB Stadler claimed he was.

At this point, I would say Rivers is in that 7-12 range of QBs.  He was almost in the same tier as Manning, Brady and Brees back in the late 00s (before Rodgers had elevated into that top tier), when he led the NFL in YPA three seasons in a row, a phenomenal achievement (since YPA is usually one of the best indicators of how good a QB is).

I'm not saying Phillip Rivers is Joe Montana by any stretch, but if Joe Montana had to work with what Rivers has had to work with, I don't believe for a second that he would be the same Joe Montana that he was in San Francisco.

Exactly.  I am not saying that Rivers is an all-time great who is in the same tier as the best of the best, but he has been a very good QB, and at times great, QB for pretty much all of his NFL career. 

[King Postwhore]

That's what makes Brady so special.   Yes he's had some very good relievers but look at the turnover in free agency.  I love Montana but in that era, no one left a team.  It was very rare. 

[King Postwhore]

Kev, just for you.

[KevShmev]

 

I am surprised almost no one is talking about what is sure to be an epic trash talk fest this weekend between Steve Smith and Josh Norman. I hope Smith treats Norman like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2MZMwx3Mck

[Dublagent66]

  However, that kinda looked like he grabbed and threw him down by the face mask.

[KevShmev]

Offensive players are inexplicably allowed to do that apparently, but if a defensive player does it, flags come flying.

[Dublagent66]

Yeah, I guess so. 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the NFC West basement bowl is off to a quick start tonight. 

[Dream Team]

Montana and Young probably cry themselves to sleep over how bad the Niners are. The one win was a complete fluke.

[Stadler]

I wouldn't either.  My argument has been that Rivers is not the horrible QB Stadler claimed he was.

At this point, I would say Rivers is in that 7-12 range of QBs.  He was almost in the same tier as Manning, Brady and Brees back in the late 00s (before Rodgers had elevated into that top tier), when he led the NFL in YPA three seasons in a row, a phenomenal achievement (since YPA is usually one of the best indicators of how good a QB is).

I've already conceded that "horrible" was hyperbole.  Does he SUCK ASS?  No, of course not.  You don't start 16 games a year for 10 years straight if you suck ass.   I get it.  BUT HE DOESN'T WIN THE GAMES HE NEEDS TO WIN.  If your team is a contender - let's say the Minnesota Vikings, by way of example - and your starting QB goes down, I say you look elsewhere before you go after Philip Rivers.  That's all I'm saying (and I would expect you to even disagree with that based on what you've said elsewhere, and that's fine). 

Exactly.  I am not saying that Rivers is an all-time great who is in the same tier as the best of the best, but he has been a very good QB, and at times great, QB for pretty much all of his NFL career.

But he doesn't win the games he has to win, and I don't think that's on his teammates alone. 

[hefdaddy42]

I am surprised almost no one is talking about what is sure to be an epic trash talk fest this weekend between Steve Smith and Josh Norman. I hope Smith treats Norman like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2MZMwx3Mck

That would be acceptable lol

[Stadler]

I love pro football, and watch it religiously, but lately I've not been so diligent on watching the Thursday Night Games.  And I figured out why:  the uniforms.  It doesn't seem like PRO FOOTBALL to me.  Last night's game was dully lit, and with the unis it looked like two college teams I could give a fuck less about playing.  I switched it off and played Assassin's Creed Brotherhood online instead. 

[King Postwhore]

I think you've got it wrong Stadler.  It's not the colors it the quality of play on TNF.  These players have no time to heal.  Their quality of play is affected by that as well as a short time to prepare for each other.

I also think we as fans are saturated with too many nights.  Football is an event, once a week and now it feels like they play every night but don't.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I think you've got it wrong Stadler.  It's not the colors it the quality of play on TNF.  These players have no time to heal.  Their quality of play is affected by that as well as a short time to prepare for each other.

I also think we as fans are saturated with too many nights.  Football is an event, once a week and now it feels like they play every night but don't.

I like the Thursday Night Opener in Week 1.

I like 2 games on Thanksgiving.

Other than that, not a fan of Thursday night football as a whole.

But as said many times, it's a money-maker for the league, so it's hear to stay, unless they want to PROVE that player safety is paramount.

[King Postwhore]

That I can agree with.  There should be byes after these games for 10 days off like the London game though one team this year did not want the bye.

[hefdaddy42]

Thursday night football (except for Thanksgiving) and the color rush uniforms should both be abolished.

[KevShmev]

I wouldn't either.  My argument has been that Rivers is not the horrible QB Stadler claimed he was.

At this point, I would say Rivers is in that 7-12 range of QBs.  He was almost in the same tier as Manning, Brady and Brees back in the late 00s (before Rodgers had elevated into that top tier), when he led the NFL in YPA three seasons in a row, a phenomenal achievement (since YPA is usually one of the best indicators of how good a QB is).

I've already conceded that "horrible" was hyperbole.  Does he SUCK ASS?  No, of course not.  You don't start 16 games a year for 10 years straight if you suck ass.   I get it.  BUT HE DOESN'T WIN THE GAMES HE NEEDS TO WIN.  If your team is a contender - let's say the Minnesota Vikings, by way of example - and your starting QB goes down, I say you look elsewhere before you go after Philip Rivers.  That's all I'm saying (and I would expect you to even disagree with that based on what you've said elsewhere, and that's fine). 

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH TEAM AROUND HIM.

See, I can yell, too.

Exactly.  I am not saying that Rivers is an all-time great who is in the same tier as the best of the best, but he has been a very good QB, and at times great, QB for pretty much all of his NFL career.

But he doesn't win the games he has to win, and I don't think that's on his teammates alone.

I agree.  It's on his teammates AND the front office for not giving him a better team with which to play.

[Rattlehead]

Thursday night football (except for Thanksgiving) and the color rush uniforms should both be abolished.

Agreed. It's unfortunate that they will probably never get rid of them though 

[KevShmev]

I can't help but wonder if that will be a point of emphasis in a few years. I think a long strike is almost inevitable, since the players' union is gonna have a long list of things they want changed, and you know the high and mighty jackass owners aren't going to want to budge much on any of them.

[King Postwhore]

They should Kev but since their NFL life is so short, they may hesitate.  It's funny, this article 46 has been in forever but until this commissioner,  have you seen the other commissioners abuse this power?

[KevShmev]

Probably not, but he's the only commish we've had in the social media age, which tends to blow everything up into a major story, so it is hard to judge him against commissioners of the past in that regard.  I am sure Goodell wouldn't come off as favorable either way, but I am sure you catch my drift. 

[King Postwhore]

I do. I know he's the owner's puppet but what surprised me is he knows the law and brought this attention to Article 46.  Before the last few years none of us fans knew about it. 

Now it's on the players radar.

[KevShmev]

Not like I want to see the Patriots win the Super Bowl, but it would be hilarious to see Goodell have to hand them the Lombardi Trophy.  And the Patriots won't take the high road like Mark Cuban did a few years ago (when he allowed the Mavs old owner to accept the trophy from David Stern).  Hopefully, it will never come to that.

[King Postwhore]

I would love to see Brady get the MVP.

To see Goodell hand the trophy to Brady.  Still waaaaayy to early to be thinking like that.  Besides, you and I know how important that game in Denver is this year.

[KevShmev]

True, but does the commish even hand the MVP the trophy anymore?  Seems like by that point the mic has been handed off to the main broadcaster of whatever station the game is on and that guy gives the MVP his trophy.  Like, didn't Jim Nantz give Von Miller the MVP trophy this past Super Bowl?

[King Postwhore]

There's a ceremony the next day where the commish and the MVP are in front of the media.

[KevShmev]

Ah, okay.  I guess we can then look forward to the Patriots not getting the calls for once at crucial moments.

[King Postwhore]

 

To post like a famous coach, "We are only focusing in the Browns".

[Skeever]

Why do people hate Thursday Night Football so much? I really enjoy it, it's a nice break midweek. And it's football. On Thursday. When you'd otherwise get none...

I get the matchups aren't always that great, but I look forward to watching it regardless.

[pogoowner]

It's just such bad football, though. No one's healthy and the teams don't have time to install a real gameplan.

[TheCountOfNYC]

It's just such bad football, though. No one's healthy and the teams don't have time to install a real gameplan.

Exactly. The teams don't even do a full practice before the game. The most they do is a small walk through going through basic plays on the Monday before.

[KevShmev]

Why do people hate Thursday Night Football so much? I really enjoy it, it's a nice break midweek. And it's football. On Thursday. When you'd otherwise get none...

I get the matchups aren't always that great, but I look forward to watching it regardless.

Oh, I still look forward to most of the games (not this week's, which I mostly avoided...Gabbert vs Stanton? No thanks), but it's still a diluted product.

Between the shitty Thursday night games and the NFL often doing whatever they can to not have the best games on the day, we often see more bad football than good.

To illustrate what I just referred to there, in St. Louis today, we are not getting either Denver/Atlanta or Houston/Minnesota, two games which features a 4-0 team vs a 3-1 one, but are getting stuck watching the Cleveland Browns.  How in the world the STL market got stuck with the NE/Cleveland game is beyond me.

And don't even get me started on Dallas being a featured game of the week literally every single week.

[King Postwhore]

I pulled some strings Kev just for you.

[TAC]

I pulled some strings Kev just for you.

[KevShmev]

I pulled some strings Kev just for you.