Poll

Who is your FAVORITE NFL Team!

Arizona Cardinals
1 (1.2%)
Atlanta Falcons
1 (1.2%)
Baltimore Ravens
3 (3.5%)
Buffalo Bills
1 (1.2%)
Carolina Panthers
6 (7%)
Chicago Bears
2 (2.3%)
Cincinnati Bengals
0 (0%)
Cleveland Browns
0 (0%)
Dallas Cowboys
1 (1.2%)
Denver Broncos
5 (5.8%)
Detroit Lions
1 (1.2%)
Green Bay Packers
9 (10.5%)
Houston Texans
1 (1.2%)
Indianapolis Colts
1 (1.2%)
Jacksonville Jaguars
0 (0%)
Kansas City Chiefs
1 (1.2%)
Los Angeles Rams
1 (1.2%)
Miami Dolphins
2 (2.3%)
Minnesota Vikings
4 (4.7%)
New England Patriots
13 (15.1%)
New Orleans Saints
0 (0%)
New York Giants
4 (4.7%)
New York Jets
4 (4.7%)
Oakland Raiders
1 (1.2%)
Philadelphia Eagles
3 (3.5%)
Pittsburgh Steelers
8 (9.3%)
San Diego Chargers
1 (1.2%)
San Francisco 49ers
4 (4.7%)
Seattle Seahawks
7 (8.1%)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1 (1.2%)
Tennessee Titans
0 (0%)
Washington Redskins
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 86

Author Topic: 2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell  (Read 218918 times)

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Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1435 on: October 05, 2016, 10:35:27 AM »
There's plenty of "horrible" QBs in the league.

Phillip Rivers is not one of them.

Not even close.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1436 on: October 05, 2016, 10:37:36 AM »
There's plenty of "horrible" QBs in the league.

Phillip Rivers is not one of them.

Not even close.

Okay, "horrible" may have a bit of hyperbole in there.   Is that fair?   But I will say - and I'm not backing down from this - he's not a WINNING QB, and as was stated here a couple weeks ago, if I had to pick 10 QBs to start a franchise with, he's not one of them (even adjusting for age).   

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1437 on: October 05, 2016, 12:49:59 PM »
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1438 on: October 05, 2016, 12:54:16 PM »
:clap:
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1439 on: October 05, 2016, 01:10:12 PM »
Awesome!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline pogoowner

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1440 on: October 05, 2016, 01:11:27 PM »
SNF to me, seems to normally have the better game of the three nights.  Also the better broadcast.
SNF is far and away the best product of the three. I do think that TNF was a mistake. It's too much. By the time MNF rolls around, I'm just worn out and don't even want to watch. Not to mention how hard the TNF games are on the teams.

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1441 on: October 05, 2016, 01:13:33 PM »
And talking about worn out.  How about the player that only get 3 days off to heal.  That adds to the poor play for most TNF games.  Bad product.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1442 on: October 05, 2016, 01:14:49 PM »
I'd be cool with one Sunday night game, one Monday night game and all the other games played on Sunday afternoon.

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1443 on: October 05, 2016, 01:58:20 PM »
I'd be cool with one Sunday night game, one Monday night game and all the other games played on Sunday afternoon.

Agreed.

We also haven't mentioned the few games a season in England that air in the morning in the US.   Then as the season ends, there are usually Saturday night games as well.  Give me 1pm, 4pm, and 8pm games Sunday and 8pm Monday.  Another issue, for east coasters, is the night games end so late.  I'd love 8pm start times, not 8:30.  But I understand the east coast is not the only time zone.

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1444 on: October 05, 2016, 02:06:20 PM »
It's not?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1445 on: October 05, 2016, 02:19:01 PM »
We also haven't mentioned the few games a season in England that air in the morning in the US.   Then as the season ends, there are usually Saturday night games as well.  Give me 1pm, 4pm, and 8pm games Sunday and 8pm Monday.  Another issue, for east coasters, is the night games end so late.  I'd love 8pm start times, not 8:30.  But I understand the east coast is not the only time zone.

For sure. I don't think a football game should ever start later than 8pm. And by start, I mean actual kick-off is at 8.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1446 on: October 05, 2016, 02:46:30 PM »
It's not?

Haha, I know!   Cram is quite the jokester!

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1447 on: October 05, 2016, 05:09:54 PM »
The Jets definitely are in trouble and I'm not saying that Todd Bowles is the next Vince Lombardi, but it's hard to win when your QB throws nine (nine!) interceptions in two games. The rest of the team is doing fine, but Fitzpatrick's abysmal play is sinking this team fast.

That is true, but they didn't lose to the Chiefs because of all of those picks. They were outplayed badly for most of that game.



I think Aaron Donald should be in the conversation.

You might be right, but their defense needs to be more consistently awesome first.  They've been stellar two weeks, not so great the other two.

MNF is not the problem.  TNF is.

This.

TNF is usually terrible, but it makes the leagues more money, so it's not going anywhere.

SNF to me, seems to normally have the better game of the three nights.  Also the better broadcast.

Yep.  The NFL definitely seems to give SNF better games way more often than it does MNF.


I've said here and elsewhere that Tony Romo - phe-NOMenal athlete - will NEVER win a Super Bowl.  EVER.   I put Rivers in that category.  He may throw for a ton of yards and a ton of TDs, but he doesn't WIN and that's not all about his defense.

The team is 93-71 in games he plays, so, yeah, he actually does win.  Let's remember that the two head coaches he has had for every year as a starter (except his first) are Norv Turner (mediocre head coach, great coordinator) and Mike McCoy (not a very good head coach).  Overall, the Chargers are not a good organization; it's a credit to Rivers that they have won as many games as they have in the last 10 years.  Just look at Andrew Luck currently as an example of how difficult it can be to win when you are playing for a bad organization that doesn't do a good job of surrounding you with a great supporting cast and a good coaching staff.

   But I will say - and I'm not backing down from this - he's not a WINNING QB

If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1448 on: October 06, 2016, 06:34:22 AM »
If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Depends on how you define what a "winning" QB is. It could be by simple win-lose stats or it could be by something else kinda important, like you know...a championship?

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1449 on: October 06, 2016, 07:05:48 AM »
If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Depends on how you define what a "winning" QB is. It could be by simple win-lose stats or it could be by something else kinda important, like you know...a championship?

But judging a QB by how many titles he has is unfair. That would mean Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are arguably the two greatest QB's of all time but they couldn't win championships when they didn't have a complete team around them. Philip Rivers has never had an elite team around him or a top tier head coach to play for, yet he has kept the Chargers relevant and even won some big playoff games with them. He kept San Diego close to the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship game while playing with a torn ACL in one of the gutsiest performances ever. He led an incomplete Chargers team to 14-2 in 2006 (with a big assist from Ladanian Tomlinson) before falling to New England in the divisional round and then to a 13-3 record in 2009 before his kicker missed three easy field goals again in the divisional round against the Jets in a game that the Chargers arguably should have won. He also led a mediocre team to the playoffs and a wild card round win against the Bengals in 2013. He has taken a team that has more often than not been average at best and elevated them to playoff contention. Even the best QB can't win it all without a strong team around him and Rivers has more than proven himself to be a great QB.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1450 on: October 06, 2016, 07:21:00 AM »
Yeah, I've had this exact debate in this thread already. For me championships are A factor in evaluating a player, but not THE factor.

I simply meant when someone says a winning quarterback, they might be referring to winning championships.

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1451 on: October 06, 2016, 07:25:13 AM »
He kept San Diego close to the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship game while playing with a torn ACL in one of the gutsiest performances ever. 

One of the greatest sports performances these eyes have ever seen. Ever.


I love me some Phillip Rivers. LOVE.


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1452 on: October 06, 2016, 07:31:32 AM »


If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Playoff record?  Super Bowls? 

I'll save you the Google:   4-5 in the post season, 84.5 QB rating.   Under 60% completion PCT., and 11/9 TD/INT ratio.    These are not elite QB numbers with the game/season on the line.    I fully understand that "team" is important, but you can't tell me that they haven't had more talent than guys like David Tyree and yet, Eli has two (LaDanian Tomlinson, for one, Antonio Gates for another). 

Look, we don't have to argue:  I simply think that the measure of a QB is what happens when the game/season is on the line.  Some guys come through with what is necessary to win the game - Brady, Manning(s), Brees (on occasion), Rodgers, Flacco, Roethlisberger - and some guys don't - Romo, and I put Rivers here.   If you think he's a good QB that's fine. I would probably take him on my fantasy team if I had no shot at the big number guys, and I'd probably do okay. 

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1453 on: October 06, 2016, 07:33:37 AM »
He kept San Diego close to the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship game while playing with a torn ACL in one of the gutsiest performances ever. 

One of the greatest sports performances these eyes have ever seen. Ever.


I love me some Phillip Rivers. LOVE.

I was at that game and he won me over with his toughness and grit. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1454 on: October 06, 2016, 07:35:44 AM »
Speaking of Ladanian Tomlinson..

If you just switched the channel and didn't know the score, how would you know if the Chargers were winning or losing?

On the sidelines, if LT has his helmet on, they're losing. If they're winning, he has it off.



Pussy.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1455 on: October 06, 2016, 07:36:21 AM »
And always whining about something.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1456 on: October 06, 2016, 07:40:51 AM »
If you want to not back down from saying something that is factually untrue, have at it.  The facts show that over the course of his career Philip Rivers has been a winning QB.

Depends on how you define what a "winning" QB is. It could be by simple win-lose stats or it could be by something else kinda important, like you know...a championship?

But judging a QB by how many titles he has is unfair. That would mean Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are arguably the two greatest QB's of all time but they couldn't win championships when they didn't have a complete team around them. Philip Rivers has never had an elite team around him or a top tier head coach to play for, yet he has kept the Chargers relevant and even won some big playoff games with them. He kept San Diego close to the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship game while playing with a torn ACL in one of the gutsiest performances ever. He led an incomplete Chargers team to 14-2 in 2006 (with a big assist from Ladanian Tomlinson) before falling to New England in the divisional round and then to a 13-3 record in 2009 before his kicker missed three easy field goals again in the divisional round against the Jets in a game that the Chargers arguably should have won. He also led a mediocre team to the playoffs and a wild card round win against the Bengals in 2013. He has taken a team that has more often than not been average at best and elevated them to playoff contention. Even the best QB can't win it all without a strong team around him and Rivers has more than proven himself to be a great QB.

My lifelong friend, colleague (we're both attorneys) and sometime roommate (we lived together in law school) have had this running argument since around 1990.   I'm a Giants fan, and he is a DIE HARD Dolphins fan.   I maintain (half kiddingly, I admit) that Phil Simms is a better quarterback than Dan Marino.

Look, it's like music.  It all depends on what stat/metric you want to pick.  In terms of total possible career statistics, there is no question that Marino is more accomplished than Simms or Dilfer (or Flacco, or even Eli).  BUT... I think the whole purpose of having 55 guys, of playing 16 games a year, then playoffs, is to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS.   I think - and I've said this before - that there is an intangible in some pro athletes that they just know how to win.  They know when the 45 yard bomb with acrobatic catch is pretty, and goes on the highlight reel, but the 8 yard screen to set the receiver up to go out of bounds so you can kick the game winning field goal is the best play FOR THE TEAM.   I honestly and truly believe that last years Super Bowl was top three of Peyton's greatest performances, simply because he put everything else aside - the legacy, the pride, the ego, the competitiveness - and did EXACTLY what was necessary to win. 

I get that I am biased here, and I don't expect people to agree with me.  But Rivers and Marino barking at their receivers - while they are on the sideline, I might add, and therefore NOT scoring - and ultimately losing the game is not what I look for in a QB.  I think it takes more than a strong arm and quick feet to be the total package as an NFL QB, and Rivers and Marino don't have it.  They have a lot of pieces - pieces that Dilfer and Simms don't have - but they don't have the total package like a Brady, Montana, Staubach, Bradshaw, Manning, Unitas, Rodgers (though I'd like to see him win another SB before the jury can enter their verdict). 

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1457 on: October 06, 2016, 07:47:01 AM »
So, judging by the QBs you listed, "total package" means:

 - great offensive line
 - great receiving corps
 - great backs
 - great coach
 - good-to-great defense
 - great coordinators

Truly, the qualities to be a great QB.  :)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1458 on: October 06, 2016, 08:06:59 AM »
He kept San Diego close to the Patriots in the 2007 AFC Championship game while playing with a torn ACL in one of the gutsiest performances ever. 

One of the greatest sports performances these eyes have ever seen. Ever.


I love me some Phillip Rivers. LOVE.

Awesome display of physical courage, no question (though I'll date myself and say Kellen Winslow in that game against Miami has that beat), but what was the outcome?   

You're sort of putting me in the position of being more of a dick than I really want to be, but I have to ask this:  was that "a great sports performance" or something else?  The game before Rivers got knocked out, and Billy Volek engineered the game winning drive.   In that "courageous" game, the Chargers didn't score a TD, and relied on four field goals.  Who's to say that a healthy Volek couldn't have turned even one of those drives into a touchdown (I don't think he could; that was the "season" for the Patriots, who seemed destined at that point to continue their run). 

Look, I'm making a point here.  I deeply admire someone who is willing to put their wellbeing on the line in the service of their team.  Kirk Gibson (fucker couldn't even walk to the plate and puts one in the bleachers.  Amazing.).  Derek Jeter.  Any number of Patriots who give everything they have for Belichick.   That doesn't necessarily make them an elite QB. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1459 on: October 06, 2016, 08:10:08 AM »
So, judging by the QBs you listed, "total package" means:

 - great offensive line
 - great receiving corps
 - great backs
 - great coach
 - good-to-great defense
 - great coordinators

Truly, the qualities to be a great QB.  :)

No, those are the qualities of a winning organization.   Winning organizations have winning QBs.  Dallas has had most of those at one time or another in the last decade, but how many Super Bowls do they have?   Most of those were present in Miami as well (though I guess not "good-to-great defense" if they are in 41-38 shootouts every week).   

I don't know what you want me to tell you.  None of this exists in a vacuum, and there is no perfect answer.  But I do think that there are some guys that have the intangible of "winner" and some don't.   I don't know how else to say it. 

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1460 on: October 06, 2016, 08:15:23 AM »

You're sort of putting me in the position of being more of a dick than I really want to be, but I have to ask this:  was that "a great sports performance" or something else?  The game before Rivers got knocked out, and Billy Volek engineered the game winning drive.   In that "courageous" game, the Chargers didn't score a TD, and relied on four field goals.  Who's to say that a healthy Volek couldn't have turned even one of those drives into a touchdown (I don't think he could; that was the "season" for the Patriots, who seemed destined at that point to continue their run). 

   That doesn't necessarily make them an elite QB.

It was a great performance in a sporting event. That's all. An extremely memorable moment in time.

I never said he was elite. I did say that I love him. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1461 on: October 06, 2016, 08:26:45 AM »
I actually agree with Stadler in that Rivers is not really a "winner".  Sure he wins games and sure he puts up good stats, but I don't believe he has "it".  I'd choose him on my team over most QBs, but I would not put him in the top tier of QB category.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1462 on: October 06, 2016, 08:27:03 AM »
Stadler, for what it's worth, I'm with you on these last couple posts.

So, judging by the QBs you listed, "total package" means:

 - great offensive line
 - great receiving corps
 - great backs
 - great coach
 - good-to-great defense
 - great coordinators

Truly, the qualities to be a great QB.  :)

Here's a crazy thought. What if a great QB creates some of these things? What if his effective decision making in the pocket makes the o-line better, what if his work in practice with the receivers make that corps better, what if his ability to read the field and audible to runs in certain situations elevates the performance of the running backs, what if he challenges his coaches with his desire to learn and expand the depth of the playbook to try new things, etc...?

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1463 on: October 06, 2016, 08:34:09 AM »
Yeah, that's a crazy thought.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1464 on: October 06, 2016, 08:50:36 AM »

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1465 on: October 06, 2016, 08:53:54 AM »
If you're a great QB, you make the other players around you great.  It's what you do.

Mikey is absolutely right.  Not a crazy thought at all.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1466 on: October 06, 2016, 09:00:05 AM »
If you're a great QB, you make the other players around you great.  It's what you do.

Mikey is absolutely right.  Not a crazy thought at all.

I don't see anything crazy about it.  Peyton Manning is an example of someone who made everyone around him great, including the o-line by getting the ball out of his hand quickly.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1467 on: October 06, 2016, 09:24:04 AM »
How does that make the OL better?  That disguises how bad they may really be by getting rid of the ball so quickly - less time they have to block.

Look, I'm just saying that Joe Montana had Bill Walsh as a coach, Roger Craig at RB, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Dwight Clark to throw to, and Ronnie Lott among others on defense.  He was as "great" as he was because his team assembled a great team around him.

I'm not saying Phillip Rivers is Joe Montana by any stretch, but if Joe Montana had to work with what Rivers has had to work with, I don't believe for a second that he would be the same Joe Montana that he was in San Francisco. 
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1468 on: October 06, 2016, 11:41:23 AM »
How does that make the OL better?  That disguises how bad they may really be by getting rid of the ball so quickly - less time they have to block.

Look, I'm just saying that Joe Montana had Bill Walsh as a coach, Roger Craig at RB, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Dwight Clark to throw to, and Ronnie Lott among others on defense.  He was as "great" as he was because his team assembled a great team around him.

I'm not saying Phillip Rivers is Joe Montana by any stretch, but if Joe Montana had to work with what Rivers has had to work with, I don't believe for a second that he would be the same Joe Montana that he was in San Francisco.

I disagree with that vociferously.   One, he had a better running back (Tomlinson) and a better tight end (Gates).   Neither Craig nor Clark did as well without Montana.    Two, I think you're ignoring the examples I gave.  Who had better talent around him the last five years than Tony Romo?   Murray, Bryant, Witten... jeez, Louise.   I'd like a crack at running that offense.  And it isn't as if Romo is "bad"; he's not.  He's a talented guy, no doubt, and by all accounts his athleticism is off the charts. 

BUT:    given an offense at random, the ball on your own 20 yard line, and 2:00 to get into field goal position, I think Montana gets you there more often than not, as does Brady, Manning and Rogers, and somehow, if we're having this conversation after that session, we'd be making excuses for Romo, Rivers and Marino.  This hurts.  That pass was tipped.  That route wasn't run right.   It's really funny how Montana and Manning BOTH had neck fusion surgery, but still won.    They both seem to avoid the tipped passes and misrun routes (or they don't matter as much to them).  Again, I'm talking about the intangibles.

Surely you know people in your life that fall into this, no?  The guy that no matter what it looks like he always seems to end up in a better spot than he started, and that guy that no matter how much goes on around him, he finds a way to end up a step short. 

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Re: 2016 NFL THREAD - No Romo? No Problem!
« Reply #1469 on: October 06, 2016, 11:55:14 AM »
BTW, all these QB injurys and people like to give vrap to QB's like Brady that get the ball out quick.  That's the main reason he's been able to stay on the field except for one season.  It's helped extend his football career. 
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