2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell

[KevShmev]

Rivers is a good example of how some put too much stock into wins and losses.  By just about any individual measure, he has actually been the 5th best QB of the last 10 years (behind Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Brees), but because he hasn't had a lot of team success in the playoffs, he gets dismissed by many.

Eh, I think we've had this conversation before, while winning certainly isn't the main measure of how great a player is, for me, it's a big one. I get that a great quarterback could have awesome stats and be really good but be on a crap team and never win anything, but to me whether a player is a winner (especially of championships) or not makes a different when evaluating that player.

I think wins and losses mean more over the long haul than the short haul when evaluating quarterbacks, and in Rivers' 10 seasons as a starter, the Chargers have won 92 games, which isn't elite, but he has rarely had a great team around him.  His lack of any real great playoff win hurts him more than anything.

[mikeyd23]

I think wins and losses mean more over the long haul than the short haul when evaluating quarterbacks, and in Rivers' 10 seasons as a starter, the Chargers have won 92 games, which isn't elite, but he has rarely had a great team around him.  His lack of any real great playoff win hurts him more than anything.

I'd agree with that.

[Stadler]

Rivers is a good example of how some put too much stock into wins and losses.  By just about any individual measure, he has actually been the 5th best QB of the last 10 years (behind Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Brees), but because he hasn't had a lot of team success in the playoffs, he gets dismissed by many.

I tend to agree.  Rivers tends to get shortchanged because San Diego has never assembled a great team around him the way that other teams have around their QBs.

Not responding to you, specifically Hef, just using your post to continue the topic, but...

2004 to 2009 he had arguably the best running back in the league with him, and a reasonably strong defense.  The farthest they got was the AFC Championship Game, once.    I think there's a lot of excuses being made here.   Eli Manning has had shit around him for the most part and he has two rings.   And as for wins, what's a better measure?  It's not like Rivers is throwing for 5,000 yards and 40 TDs a season, like Peyton was before he sealed his legacy last year.

If you're not winning Championships, I'm not sure what the point is.   That just makes you Dallas.   

[KevShmev]

Wins is a team stat, not an individual one.

If wins is the best measure, then Alex Smith last year was better than Rodgers, Wilson and Roethlisberger.

[El Barto]

How in the hell does Jerry Jones warrant a HOF nomination? His biggest accomplishment as an owner was undermining the revenue sharing model. The three Superb Owl wins might warrant consideration, except that by promptly undoing the whole thing he demonstrated how bad he was. Sadly, since he runs the league, he'll get in anyway. But this is yet another reason why the NFL is a joke.

[mikeyd23]

Wins is a team stat, not an individual one.

If wins is the best measure, then Alex Smith last year was better than Rodgers, Wilson and Roethlisberger.

I think like you mentioned above, wins and losses over a larger sample size (career instead of season) is probably a better indicator.

Also - serious question, if the quarterback is the most important member of the team how much expectation is there for that player to raise the level of the guys around him? Like I said before, it shouldn't be the only thing factored into rating or ranking, but wins and championships certainly should be A factor.

If you're not winning Championships, I'm not sure what the point is.   That just makes you Dallas.   

Exactly this.

[Stadler]

Wins is a team stat, not an individual one.

If wins is the best measure, then Alex Smith last year was better than Rodgers, Wilson and Roethlisberger.

Well, obviously, it's a PATTERN of winning as opposed to any specific time block.  That one season is offset by what, 10 (less for Wilson) other seasons that Rodgers and Roethlisberger have outwon Alex Smith.   Rivers has 12 years of non-winning to compare to, and not every season was with a shit team.   

[KevShmev]

Non-winning. Rivers has a record of 92-68 as a starter, which includes seasons of 14,13 and 11 wins. That's not winning?

[Stadler]

Non-winning. Rivers has a record of 92-68 as a starter, which includes seasons of 14,13 and 11 wins. That's not winning?

Not when his season ends in December every year.  He's 4-5 in the playoffs (1-4 if you take out the one year they went to the AFC Championship game) with 11TDs versus 9 INTs and a rating of about 85. 

Look, a lot of this is opinion.  If I'm a GM, and I can pick any QB to be the "basis" of my team, I've got 15 guys that I take before him if my goal is "Super Bowl".

[El Barto]

Non-winning. Rivers has a record of 92-68 as a starter, which includes seasons of 14,13 and 11 wins. That's not winning?

Not when his season ends in December every year.  He's 4-5 in the playoffs (1-4 if you take out the one year they went to the AFC Championship game) with 11TDs versus 9 INTs and a rating of about 85. 

Look, a lot of this is opinion.  If I'm a GM, and I can pick any QB to be the "basis" of my team, I've got 15 guys that I take before him if my goal is "Super Bowl".

I'd be real interested in seeing that list.

[cramx3]

15 is a bit much, but 10 seems like a good number

[mikeyd23]

Yeah 10 seems like a good number to me as well.

[KevShmev]

I'd love to see that list, too.

Also, regarding Rivers and the playoffs, you could argue that if that Charger DB who picked off Brady in the divisional round in 2006 doesn't allow it to be stripped, the Chargers go on to the win the Super Bowl (they were a bad matchup for Indy, whom they would have played the following week, and then got the Bears in the SB).

Also, they lost 17-14 to the Jets in 2010 when the SD kicker missed three FGs. Was that Rivers' fault?

Change any of those plays and his playoff record might look very different.  Not everyone is as fortunate as Brady to play for a coach who is so good that you are guaranteed a great shot at winning it all every year no matter what. Contrast that to Rivers, who for the majority of his time as a starter had as his head coach, Norv Turner (great OC, mediocre head coach).

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I'd love to see that list, too.

Also, regarding Rivers and the playoffs, you could argue that if that Charger DB who picked off Brady in the divisional round in 2006 doesn't allow it to be stripped, the Chargers go on to the win the Super Bowl (they were a bad matchup for Indy, whom they would have played the following week, and then got the Bears in the SB).

Also, they lost 17-14 to the Jets in 2010 when the SD kicker missed three FGs. Is that Rivers' fault?

Change any of those plays and his playoff record might look very different.  Not everyone is as fortunate as Brady to play for a coach who is so good that you are guaranteed a great shot at winning it all every year no matter what.

I agree with all of this.

Brady has been fortunate. His first 3 rings are pretty much thanks to the defense and kicker (honorable mention to Donovan McNabb's terrible clock management skills). And despite his greatness, that 4th ring was handed thrown to them after one of the most bizarre play selections in SB history.

Brady is elite... but he has also been extremely fortunate, as Kev pointed out above.

[bosk1]

I'd love to see that list, too.

For kicks, here's my list of guys I would take over Rivers (not in order):
Rodgers
Brees
Roethlisberger
Brady
Ryan
Luck
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Smith
Palmer
Eli Manning
Stafford
Bradford
Dalton
Carr

That would put him at 17th.  I don't really care to defend each of those choices, but if I'm building a team, I take any of those 16 over Rivers.

[cramx3]

To keep it honest, the original stipulation was "super bowl" not "building a team" if it were to build a team, then that increases the number greatly as I'd look at some of the younger QBs that aren't proven yet but have shown they could be really good.

[kaos2900]

I'd love to see that list, too.

For kicks, here's my list of guys I would take over Rivers (not in order):
Rodgers
Brees
Roethlisberger
Brady
Ryan
Luck
Wilson
Newton
Flacco
Smith
Palmer
Eli Manning
Stafford
Bradford
Dalton
Carr

That would put him at 17th.  I don't really care to defend each of those choices, but if I'm building a team, I take any of those 16 over Rivers.

Dude, no offense but your list lost all credibility when you included Bradford. You could argue everyone else, but Bradford? No way.

[King Postwhore]

Kev, and DOC.  To get to 4 rings you have to have that balance of great QB, great coach.

That also works with offense and defense.  Though a great defense like a 2000 Baltimore and last year with Denver can get you a ring.

[bosk1]

Dude, no offense but your list lost all credibility when you included Bradford. You could argue everyone else, but Bradford? No way.

Fair enough.  He was definitely my weakest link and the one I most debated about including. 

[King Postwhore]

Dude.

Dude.


Dude.



Dude.

[Stadler]

Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Brees
Luck
Wilson
Manning
Flacco
Ryan
Palmer
Dalton
Carr
Garoppalo
Mariotta
Smith
Orlovsky

Yes, Orlovsky is a journeyman backup who went to UConn, my alma mater.  It's a joke, peeps.  Yes, I'm straining credibility with putting a back up on the list and keeping Newton off.  I don't like Newton's attitude.  I don't think it's "just having fun! playing a game!"   I thought he folded because - in part - of his attitude.  He doesn't respect the game, and doesn't know what it takes to be a winner year in, year out, for a decade in the NFL.    You all can say Brady is "fortunate", and I suppose in one sense that's true.  But you're saying "what if" for ONE game for ONE season.  Brady is ALWAYS IN THE MIX.   If it wasn't Manning handing Newton a lesson last year, it would have been Brady.   

[KevShmev]

Brady has been fortunate. His first 3 rings are pretty much thanks to the defense and kicker (honorable mention to Donovan McNabb's terrible clock management skills). And despite his greatness, that 4th ring was handed thrown to them after one of the most bizarre play selections in SB history.

Brady is elite... but he has also been extremely fortunate, as Kev pointed out above.

Back at the time, I say Brady was like Aikman: a very good QB who was winning Super Bowls on great all-around teams.

As great as Brady is, he really wasn't considered an elite QB by the masses (see: not Patriots fans) until 2004 or maybe even 2005; heck, he never even finished top 5 in passer rating until 2007.  It's easy to look at his four rings and say he was elite for all four, but he wasn't.  Two at the most. 

That said, he's still 1a or 1b on the all-time list, IMO (along with Peyton), because, again, I look at a QB's overall play from start to finish, instead of taking the lazy, meathead approach of just looking at rings.

Kev, and DOC.  To get to 4 rings you have to have that balance of great QB, great coach.

*cough* Terry Bradshaw *cough*

  I don't like Newton's attitude.  I don't think it's "just having fun! playing a game!"   I thought he folded because - in part - of his attitude.  He doesn't respect the game, and doesn't know what it takes to be a winner year in, year out, for a decade in the NFL.   

That remains to be seen, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him crumble the minute things don't go right, like he did last February, from cowering away from that loose ball to acting like a sore loser after the game.  However, he is still the reigning league MVP and deserves to be mentioned, if not in the first tier, but high up in the second.

[King Postwhore]

*Cough* no free agency. *cough*

[TheCountOfNYC]

I'd love to see that list, too.

Also, regarding Rivers and the playoffs, you could argue that if that Charger DB who picked off Brady in the divisional round in 2006 doesn't allow it to be stripped, the Chargers go on to the win the Super Bowl (they were a bad matchup for Indy, whom they would have played the following week, and then got the Bears in the SB).

Also, they lost 17-14 to the Jets in 2010 when the SD kicker missed three FGs. Is that Rivers' fault?

Change any of those plays and his playoff record might look very different.  Not everyone is as fortunate as Brady to play for a coach who is so good that you are guaranteed a great shot at winning it all every year no matter what.

I agree with all of this.

Brady has been fortunate. His first 3 rings are pretty much thanks to the defense and kicker (honorable mention to Donovan McNabb's terrible clock management skills). And despite his greatness, that 4th ring was handed thrown to them after one of the most bizarre play selections in SB history.

Brady is elite... but he has also been extremely fortunate, as Kev pointed out above.

All of this. You can be as good as you want but in one game elimination scenarios, one good or bad bounce may be the only thing separating the winner from the loser. For example, back in the 2012 NFC Championship (before SB46) the Giants and the 49ers were playing a very close game. In overtime, SF's punt returner fumbled the catch, the Giants recovered in field goal range, and went on to win the Super Bowl while the 49ers went home. It only took one mistake from one guy to cost an entire team (a team that went 13-3 and earned a first round bye) a playoff game.

Another thing that needs to be taken into account when judging a player is the state of the team before they were there. The Chargers were terrible before Rivers got there and with him they have been a consistent playoff contender. He makes the team better.

[cramx3]

All of this. You can be as good as you want but in one game elimination scenarios, one good or bad bounce may be the only thing separating the winner from the loser. For example, back in the 2012 NFC Championship (before SB46) the Giants and the 49ers were playing a very close game. In overtime, SF's punt returner fumbled the catch, the Giants recovered in field goal range, and went on to win the Super Bowl while the 49ers went home. It only took one mistake from one guy to cost an entire team (a team that went 13-3 and earned a first round bye) a playoff game.

ahhh such good memories!

[Stadler]

Back at the time, I say Brady was like Aikman: a very good QB who was winning Super Bowls on great all-around teams.

As great as Brady is, he really wasn't considered an elite QB by the masses (see: not Patriots fans) until 2004 or maybe even 2005; heck, he never even finished top 5 in passer rating until 2007.  It's easy to look at his four rings and say he was elite for all four, but he wasn't.  Two at the most. 

That said, he's still 1a or 1b on the all-time list, IMO (along with Peyton), because, again, I look at a QB's overall play from start to finish, instead of taking the lazy, meathead approach of just looking at rings.

Respectfully, I'm not letting this go, because I respectfully don't think some of you are looking at the big picture.   Yeah, Giant recovery, 49ers, blah blah blah, but "THE CATCH".   Or Sean Landeta getting the ball blown off his boot in Chicago.  Brady, luck, but David Tyree.   The point is, Brady is ALWAYS THERE to take advantage of these situations.   Phil Rivers is watching these events from his man cave.

There's even an expression for this:  "Any Given Sunday".    You've got to look at the total body of work.   Brady:  played in six Super Bowls, and has excellent numbers in the biggest game in the league.  Phillip Rivers:  I think his buddy got him tix to see... hell I can't even make that joke because the Super Bowl hasn't been played in San Diego since 2003, before he was drafted. 

*cough* Terry Bradshaw *cough*

Actually, I put him in the top ten all time.  He did what he had to do to win, in a time where there wasn't huge contracts, there wasn't "QB ratings" and no one talked about "elite QBs".  There weren't punks like Geno Smith around, whining about "adversity" and why they need even MORE of an opportunity to "vindicate themselves".  He played hard-nosed, winning football. 

[TAC]

Chiming in to say that Aikman is way underrated.

[Dream Team]

Chiming in on the Al Jazeera thing. Anyone who thinks most NFL linemen/linebackers don't use some form of PEDs is extremely naive. You remember Alan Faneca, the perennial all-pro 300-lb guard for the Steelers and Jets? He weighs like 180 now.

[KevShmev]

Back at the time, I say Brady was like Aikman: a very good QB who was winning Super Bowls on great all-around teams.

As great as Brady is, he really wasn't considered an elite QB by the masses (see: not Patriots fans) until 2004 or maybe even 2005; heck, he never even finished top 5 in passer rating until 2007.  It's easy to look at his four rings and say he was elite for all four, but he wasn't.  Two at the most. 

That said, he's still 1a or 1b on the all-time list, IMO (along with Peyton), because, again, I look at a QB's overall play from start to finish, instead of taking the lazy, meathead approach of just looking at rings.

Respectfully, I'm not letting this go, because I respectfully don't think some of you are looking at the big picture.   Yeah, Giant recovery, 49ers, blah blah blah, but "THE CATCH".   Or Sean Landeta getting the ball blown off his boot in Chicago.  Brady, luck, but David Tyree.   The point is, Brady is ALWAYS THERE to take advantage of these situations.   Phil Rivers is watching these events from his man cave.

There's even an expression for this:  "Any Given Sunday".    You've got to look at the total body of work.   Brady:  played in six Super Bowls, and has excellent numbers in the biggest game in the league.  Phillip Rivers:  I think his buddy got him tix to see... hell I can't even make that joke because the Super Bowl hasn't been played in San Diego since 2003, before he was drafted. 

I don't think anyone is not giving Brady his due; I often say he and Peyton are 1a and 1b on my all-time list now.  But it's absurd to act like that he hasn't had a huge edge in coaching over his peers (not just in having Belichick, but never having to play against a Belichick defense).  Of the guys frequently mentioned in the top 7-8, I think only Joe Montana and Dan Marino come close to having had head coaches comparable to who Brady has had.

*cough* Terry Bradshaw *cough*

Actually, I put him in the top ten all time.  He did what he had to do to win, in a time where there wasn't huge contracts, there wasn't "QB ratings" and no one talked about "elite QBs".  There weren't punks like Geno Smith around, whining about "adversity" and why they need even MORE of an opportunity to "vindicate themselves".  He played hard-nosed, winning football.

He was able to play winning football because he was surrounded by more Hall of Fame talent than any other QB in history, on both sides of the ball, plus one of the top coaches ever (Noll is up there with Lombardi, Belichick, Walsh and Shula).  To me, he is similar to Aikman in that they were both very good QBs who were fortunate to be on teams stacked from top to bottom, enabling them to win the rings they did.  Put either on a team with average NFL talent and neither would have sniffed a ring ever.

[cramx3]

Wow the Giants look like shit in these first two preseason games.  Granted it's preseason, but it would be nice to see something... 

[KevShmev]

I think Eli is still sad about Peyton having as many rings as him again...

[Stadler]

Chiming in on the Al Jazeera thing. Anyone who thinks most NFL linemen/linebackers don't use some form of PEDs is extremely naive. You remember Alan Faneca, the perennial all-pro 300-lb guard for the Steelers and Jets? He weighs like 180 now.

Jeff Saturday is always the guy I use here.  He was a 300lb center (actually, 295 was his listed playing weight, at 6'2") and now he's 235.  That's what I weigh, and I'm 5'8".   

Good for these guys, but even that 5 or 10 year period at 300+ can irreparably shorten their lives.   

[hefdaddy42]

Panthers starting offense looks good after two preseason games, but of course, they are just preseason games.

Glad to see Kelvin Benjamin back and contributing after missing last season.

In his two series Saturday, Cam was 8-12 for 162 yards and 1 TD, with completions to 6 different receivers.  Also, all 3 of our QBs threw TD passes, which was fun to see.

Our defense should be good again, as well.  It will be interesting to see how our CBs do (2 rookies starting).

[bosk1]

As long as Newton doesn't have to dive for any fumbles, he should be fine.

[Dream Team]

So it looks like due to more Patriots behavior, the NFL is having to change some rules again. I think it was last year they listed like 20-something players as "questionable" and every single one played, so they are changing the injury categories to prevent teams from doing this. I'm just SHOCKED that NE did that.