2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell

[mikeyd23]

Do you not get that the NLF said in open court that they had no evidence that Tom had any part in this.  An owner could not do that to an employee.  That leaves the door open for lawsuits and companies do not like getting dragged to court.

If my employer suspected me of stealing (going back to your original example) and they hired an outside, third-party to investigate whether or not I did and the result of that report was that it was "more probable than not" that I stole, I could totally see your normal average employee getting suspended for something like that. Additionally, if I worked at a union shop and my union had given way to much power to the bosses that be in the company (not letting me appeal the decision to someone else in the organization), I'd be more upset with the union that is supposed to be working toward labor agreements with the best interest of the employees (me).

Honestly though, if you were right and Tom did nothing wrong, and the NFL was totally and completely wrong...Why didn't taking this issue outside of the NFL (taking it to U.S. courts) result in a reversal of the suspension? Tom giving up today says a lot.

[El Barto]

And I'd rather one of the greatest QBs of all time not feel the need to cheat, but it is what it is.

This.

How is the penalty of a 4 game suspension excessive for cheating? Most players get suspended for things that are off the field. This directly effected the on-the-field game and jeopardized the integrity of the entire league.

Because it falls well beyond what other teams/players have received for similar, if not worse, violations that were actually proven. Most equipment violations are hardly even looked into, including tampering with the balls.

[El Barto]

If my employer suspected me of stealing (going back to your original example) and they hired an outside, third-party to investigate whether or not I did and the result of that report was that it was "more probable than not" that I stole, I could totally see your normal average employee getting suspended for something like that.

What if once you read that report you noticed that it actually included information that made it likely no money was ever stolen in the first place, which the authors admitted to ignoring?

[King Postwhore]

Do you not get that the NLF said in open court that they had no evidence that Tom had any part in this.  An owner could not do that to an employee.  That leaves the door open for lawsuits and companies do not like getting dragged to court.

If my employer suspected me of stealing (going back to your original example) and they hired an outside, third-party to investigate whether or not I did and the result of that report was that it was "more probable than not" that I stole, I could totally see your normal average employee getting suspended for something like that. Additionally, if I worked at a union shop and my union had given way to much power to the bosses that be in the company (not letting me appeal the decision to someone else in the organization), I'd be more upset with the union that is supposed to be working toward labor agreements with the best interest of the employees (me).

Honestly though, if you were right and Tom did nothing wrong, and the NFL was totally and completely wrong...Why didn't taking this issue outside of the NFL (taking it to U.S. courts) result in a reversal of the suspension? Tom giving up today says a lot.

So you would be ok that you would get suspended because you were generally aware of something but they had no proof.  Sure you would take that in stride.

It blows my mind that because of a hate of a sports figure that people lose sight about real world applications.

[mikeyd23]

Because it falls well beyond what other teams/players have received for similar, if not worse, violations that were actually proven. Most equipment violations are hardly even looked into, including tampering with the balls.

Sure, but conversely, I could give you examples of suspensions for 4 games or more that were less deserving than this situation, so it certainly goes both ways. The NFL is equally inconsistent.

What if once you read that report you noticed that it actually included information that made it likely no money was ever stolen in the first place, which the authors admitted to ignoring?

Not sure I get the comparison...? Directly from the report:

"We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls."

So maybe I instructed people that worked under me to steal for me? Would that be a better analogy?

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Do you not get that the NLF said in open court that they had no evidence that Tom had any part in this.  An owner could not do that to an employee.  That leaves the door open for lawsuits and companies do not like getting dragged to court.

If my employer suspected me of stealing (going back to your original example) and they hired an outside, third-party to investigate whether or not I did and the result of that report was that it was "more probable than not" that I stole, I could totally see your normal average employee getting suspended for something like that. Additionally, if I worked at a union shop and my union had given way to much power to the bosses that be in the company (not letting me appeal the decision to someone else in the organization), I'd be more upset with the union that is supposed to be working toward labor agreements with the best interest of the employees (me).

Honestly though, if you were right and Tom did nothing wrong, and the NFL was totally and completely wrong...Why didn't taking this issue outside of the NFL (taking it to U.S. courts) result in a reversal of the suspension? Tom giving up today says a lot.

So you would be ok that you would get suspended because you were generally aware of something but they had no proof.  Sure you would take that in stride.

It blows my mind that because of a hate of a sports figure that people lose sight about real world applications.

I'd be okay with being suspended if I knowingly did something wrong.  Of course I can't speak for Brady, but I'm pretty sure that he knew exactly what he did and or what was being done for him. 

[mikeyd23]

So you would be ok that you would get suspended because you were generally aware of something but they had no proof.  Sure you would take that in stride.

It blows my mind that because of a hate of a sports figure that people lose sight about real world applications.

From what I've seen, you supervise workers for a living, so if two guys stole from your place of employment and the other guy told them to do it and was aware they were doing it, you'd be cool with that?

I don't hate Tom Brady at all. Like I said before, I've been trying to look at this from practical, real world perspectives, just because our opinions don't align doesn't mean I'm not looking at the situation from a real world perspective.

[King Postwhore]

So you would be ok that you would get suspended because you were generally aware of something but they had no proof.  Sure you would take that in stride.

It blows my mind that because of a hate of a sports figure that people lose sight about real world applications.

From what I've seen, you supervise workers for a living, so if two guys stole from your place of employment and the other guy told them to do it and was aware they were doing it, you'd be cool with that?

I don't hate Tom Brady at all. Like I said before, I've been trying to look at this from practical, real world perspectives, just because our opinions don't align doesn't mean I'm not looking at the situation from a real world perspective.

I'm a manager so of course I look for that but if I can't prove it, I can't act on it.

Do you not get that the NLF said in open court that they had no evidence that Tom had any part in this.  An owner could not do that to an employee.  That leaves the door open for lawsuits and companies do not like getting dragged to court.

If my employer suspected me of stealing (going back to your original example) and they hired an outside, third-party to investigate whether or not I did and the result of that report was that it was "more probable than not" that I stole, I could totally see your normal average employee getting suspended for something like that. Additionally, if I worked at a union shop and my union had given way to much power to the bosses that be in the company (not letting me appeal the decision to someone else in the organization), I'd be more upset with the union that is supposed to be working toward labor agreements with the best interest of the employees (me).

Honestly though, if you were right and Tom did nothing wrong, and the NFL was totally and completely wrong...Why didn't taking this issue outside of the NFL (taking it to U.S. courts) result in a reversal of the suspension? Tom giving up today says a lot.

So you would be ok that you would get suspended because you were generally aware of something but they had no proof.  Sure you would take that in stride.

It blows my mind that because of a hate of a sports figure that people lose sight about real world applications.

I'd be okay with being suspended if I knowingly did something wrong.  Of course I can't speak for Brady, but I'm pretty sure that he knew exactly what he did and or what was being done for him. 

So if he did it, it is not 4 game worthy and you as a fan of the league should be worried that Goodell can set whatever punishment he deems at that time.  No set of rules for this.  I also know this is on the players and their union for allowing this.  It's their fault. 

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I am worried about Goodell setting whatever punishment he thinks of at the time, but more importantly, I'd rather Brady or whoever get too much of a punishment than no punishment at all.

[mikeyd23]

So if he did it, it is not 4 game worthy and you as a fan of the league should be worried that Goodell can set whatever punishment he deems at that time.  No set of rules for this.  I also know this is on the players and their union for allowing this.  It's their fault.

Wait what? If he did, it IS 4 game worthy, or more. Heck Big Ben got 4 games for literally doing nothing wrong.

[King Postwhore]

And who was that under Mike?  You know the answer.  So the answer is Goodell has too much power and can bend it for his own agenda.  You just answered it for me.  All fans should be worried.

[mikeyd23]

And who was that under Mike?  You know the answer.  So the answer is Goodell has too much power and can bend it for his own agenda.  You just answered it for me.  All fans should be worried.

Goodell, no question. I agree, Goodell has too much power and I hope it gets remedied by the NFLPA in 2020. I've never disputed I think Goodell has too much power, that we can agree on. We just see differently when it comes to what should happen to Tom, that's all.

[King Postwhore]

So you agree that 4 games is appropriate?  I don't.  I didn't think Ben deserved that and a lot of the N.O. players.  I think the hate of the N.E. Patriots have blinding most and they want the max for everything.  That's fine, I know the team will use it as motivation.  They always do.

[Stadler]

In keeping with the poor "stealing" analogy, I think it's lost that Tom could absolutely have done everything they said he did and it STILL wouldn't necessarily mean he cheated.   The balls have to be a certain pressure at the point of review by the refs.   They cannot be tampered with after that point.

If Tom texted Laurel and Hardy and said "Make those balls to my liking, and I'll give you swag", as long as Stan and Ollie did their work BEFORE giving the balls to the refs, all is good.    There is no proof that they modified the balls after the refs saw them (the air pressure can be accounted for through environmental means).   

So the stealing analogy doesn't work.  I think it's more akin to the manager saying "Do whatever it takes to get this contract/sale!" and 99% of all workers interpret that to mean having sales brochures, following through with the customer, working hard to build trust, and being diligent on the proposal, and there will always be 1% that interpret that to include bribes of cash, blow, and hookers.   Is that on the manager?  Even if it is, we're not there, we're at the "10% of the 99%" that walk right up to the line and don't ACTUALLY give bribes, but maybe say "well, give us this contract and I'll make sure I'm on our pricing folks to make sure we don't get aggressive with our pricing, and I'll go talk to our manufacturing guy to make sure you always have a supply of widgets."

[Stadler]

So you agree that 4 games is appropriate?  I don't.  I didn't think Ben deserved that and a lot of the N.O. players.  I think the hate of the N.E. Patriots have blinding most and they want the max for everything.  That's fine, I know the team will use it as motivation.  They always do.

Arizona is a great team, so there's that, but if I'm Miami, Buffalo and Houston, I'm not really taking any comfort that Belichick has had several months and will have the entire preseason to get Jimmy G. on a level to at least give his team a fighting chance. 

I say the Pats are 3-1 on Brady's return.   

[King Postwhore]

Games 2 through 4 are at home as well.I'm hoping for 3-1 but 2-2 is also reasonable.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Broncos and Miller agree on his mega deal.  Chiefs and Berry unlikely to work something out prior to the deadline.

[El Barto]

What if once you read that report you noticed that it actually included information that made it likely no money was ever stolen in the first place, which the authors admitted to ignoring?

Not sure I get the comparison...? Directly from the report:

"We nevertheless believe, based on the totality of the evidence, that it is more probable than not that Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls."

Also from the report:

We believe it is more probable that Anderson used the non-logo gauge for his pre-game measurements.

This despite Walt's recollection that he used the other gauge, which would have put the Patriots' balls right where they'd be expected to be.

To carry on your theft analogy, the report would have said something to the effect of "while the accountant said the money was accounted for after all, we think that it was actually still missing, and therefore stolen."

[mikeyd23]

So you agree that 4 games is appropriate?

For Tom? Hell, I dunno at this point, I guess so. It's hard to say because the league is so inconsistent with suspension lengths for different situations.

[El Barto]

So you agree that 4 games is appropriate?

For Tom? Hell, I dunno at this point, I guess so. It's hard to say because the league is so inconsistent with suspension lengths for different situations.

Or same situations. Putting stick'em on the balls results in no suspensions at all. And they were seen doing it!

[TAC]

And the stickum towels were never handed over!

[mikeyd23]

So you agree that 4 games is appropriate?

For Tom? Hell, I dunno at this point, I guess so. It's hard to say because the league is so inconsistent with suspension lengths for different situations.

Or same situations. Putting stick'em on the balls results in no suspensions at all. And they were seen doing it!

And the stickum towels were never handed over!

  Like I said before, I'm not sticking (no pun intended) up for Goodell or the NFL. I think overall, player discipline is not handled consistently or with excellence.

[El Barto]

Seems that while Brady isn't going to continue the fight, the NFLPA is. It's statement is that it will not seek a stay of the suspension, but that it is going to petition the SCOTUS for cert.

[dparrott]

The Rams in-season practice facility is around 5 miles away from me and their practices won't be public.  Dammit.

That's weird.  All teams have open practice for at least 2 weeks.

They're practicing south of L.A. right now while their local complex is being built.

[bosk1]

Honestly though, if you were right and Tom did nothing wrong, and the NFL was totally and completely wrong...Why didn't taking this issue outside of the NFL (taking it to U.S. courts) result in a reversal of the suspension? Tom giving up today says a lot.

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but just to clear up this part of it:  Courts have no power to review ALL of the facts.  They can only look at whether there is something clear that points to fraud or clear-cut bias that influenced the decision on the part of the NFL.  That is almost impossible to prove.  But the courts aren't going to look into the underlying merits of Tom's case.  So him giving up actually doesn't say a whole lot about whether or not he cheated. 

[mikeyd23]

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but just to clear up this part of it:  Courts have no power to review ALL of the facts.  They can only look at whether there is something clear that points to fraud or clear-cut bias that influenced the decision on the part of the NFL.  That is almost impossible to prove.  But the courts aren't going to look into the underlying merits of Tom's case.  So him giving up actually doesn't say a whole lot about whether or not he cheated.

That seems fair, thanks for the clarification.

[TAC]

And really, these appeals have been basically about procedure, not the merits of the suspension itself.

[KevShmev]

Regardless of what the NFL says, I stand firm in my beliefs that Brady got four games not for allegedly cheating, but going out of his way to not help in the investigation.  Had he said, "Yeah, I had them deflate the balls a little bit, like all QBs do, to get them where I like them, and if that was against the rules, I apologize," he might have gotten fined and maybe a one game suspension.  Instead, he acted arrogant and snarky about it at that press conference and was then not helpful when it came to the league's questions.  The four-game suspension is dumb, yes, but it was preventable on Brady's part. Like Jim Rome says, the coverup is always worse than the crime.

[King Postwhore]

If he did it Kev, do you blame him because of the overreaction of the offices towards the Pats and their unbalanced punishments? 

[KevShmev]

Brady, not really, but given the Patriots recent history of, well, skirting the rules, it's not that surprising that the league would eventually want to hammer them.  I think the arrogance of Brady and the Patriots got the best of them this time, as they thought they were teflon and could squirm their way out of it.

And as harsh as this punishment is, it's still a picnic compared to how hard the Saints got hammered years ago.  They lost their coach for a whole freaking season.

[King Postwhore]

There is the problem outside of NE.  People are pleased because of their hate of the Pats but the NFL leadership is the real issue that the focus isn't on.

The owners (and I include Kraft) and Goodell are the real issue here.

[axeman90210]

Pleasantly surprised the Jets came to a contract agreement with Mo Wilkerson before the deadline.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Pleasantly surprised the Jets came to a contract agreement with Mo Wilkerson before the deadline.

I'm very happy. He deserved to get paid and the Jets found a way to do it without completely draining their cap space. Now their best player will be on the field instead of holding out. With him, Richardson, and Williams holding down the fort on the D-line, Revis still playing at a high level in the secondary, and Marshall, Decker, and Forte giving defensive coordinators headaches, the Jets can honestly be successful with Geno Smith at QB. All he has to do is not lose games (similar to Mark Sanchez in 2010) and the amazing team around him will have every opportunity to win. I'm cautiously optimistic for this upcoming season.

[KevShmev]

Let's be serious now; Geno Smith is shitty.  They couldn't even make the playoffs last year with Fitzpatrick having his best year ever, and you think they can make it this year with a major drop-off at QB? I say no way. I suspect a deal will be struck with Fitzpatrick just in time.

[King Postwhore]

I do think the Jets now have a good, stable couch now in place and that is a huge plus.