2016 NFL THREAD - Super Bowl 51 - Patriots' Day: V - Screw Goodell

[Stadler]

I agree with just about all of this.

Pittsburgh's game plan was staggeringly bad.  Tomlin is not a bad coach by any means, but his inability to adjust in game is glaring.

Regarding gutless coaches, yes!! I cannot remember when it was, but GB punted on a 4th and short when the game was still in reach, and I remember thinking, "go for it!"  It's not like they were stopping Atlanta on defense.

What surprised me is the lack of daring.  Tomlin is not the strategist that Belichick and his staff is.  They just play harder and more relentless than the other team.   But part of that is never letting up on the gas, and some of those play calls were, well, too cutesy for someone who's banking on knocking the shit out of his opponent.   I think this loss is going to bug Tomlin badly, because it's hard not to say they were soft, and that's not his brand of football. 

[King Postwhore]

I would say the lack of adapting.  No adjustments really.

[Shooters1221]

I agree with just about all of this.

Pittsburgh's game plan was staggeringly bad.  Tomlin is not a bad coach by any means, but his inability to adjust in game is glaring.

Regarding gutless coaches, yes!! I cannot remember when it was, but GB punted on a 4th and short when the game was still in reach, and I remember thinking, "go for it!"  It's not like they were stopping Atlanta on defense.

What surprised me is the lack of daring.  Tomlin is not the strategist that Belichick and his staff is.  They just play harder and more relentless than the other team.   But part of that is never letting up on the gas, and some of those play calls were, well, too cutesy for someone who's banking on knocking the shit out of his opponent.   I think this loss is going to bug Tomlin badly, because it's hard not to say they were soft, and that's not his brand of football.

It should bug him, it was clearly his worse coaching output in awhile. The funny thing with the Steelers is they did make some very productive in game adjustments throughout the regular season that influenced multiple W v. L results. He's never going to be a brilliant strategist but sheesh....That was horrid! I guess we'll see what he has learned as Steelers v. Pats are on the 2017 schedule.

Well, on with the SB, which is a strange match up. It's going to be interesting to see if the Pats can slow Matty-ice down a bit. They are indoors which makes Atl. very scary.

[King Postwhore]

What's this crap that I read on Pro Football Talk that Brown was pouting after the Steelers first TD because he wanted the ball on that play.  I hope that's not true.

[mikeyd23]

What's this crap that I read on Pro Football Talk that Brown was pouting after the Steelers first TD because he wanted the ball on that play.  I hope that's not true.

Totally believable, honestly King, the dude is the stereotypical self-centered superstar.

I honestly think if you gave Brown the choice between (1) a game where he has 10 catches for 175 yards and 2 TDs and the team loses OR (2) a game where he has 4 catches for 40 yards and no TDs but the team wins... He'd pick option 1 every time.

I agree with just about all of this.

Pittsburgh's game plan was staggeringly bad.  Tomlin is not a bad coach by any means, but his inability to adjust in game is glaring.

Regarding gutless coaches, yes!! I cannot remember when it was, but GB punted on a 4th and short when the game was still in reach, and I remember thinking, "go for it!"  It's not like they were stopping Atlanta on defense.

What surprised me is the lack of daring.  Tomlin is not the strategist that Belichick and his staff is.  They just play harder and more relentless than the other team.   But part of that is never letting up on the gas, and some of those play calls were, well, too cutesy for someone who's banking on knocking the shit out of his opponent.   I think this loss is going to bug Tomlin badly, because it's hard not to say they were soft, and that's not his brand of football.

It should bug him, it was clearly his worse coaching output in awhile. The funny thing with the Steelers is they did make some very productive in game adjustments throughout the regular season that influenced multiple W v. L results. He's never going to be a brilliant strategist but sheesh....That was horrid! I guess we'll see what he has learned as Steelers v. Pats are on the 2017 schedule.

It SHOULD bug Tomlin, but I really don't think that it actually will.

[King Postwhore]

That's too bad.  The man is already going to get his money.  It should be about the rings now.

[mikeyd23]

That's too bad.  The man is already going to get his money.  It should be about the rings now.

Agreed. There are rumors around Pittsburgh that they might not sign him long-term. He is under contract through next season currently.

We've talked about this in this thread before, but it's worth mentioning again, there are certain guys in the NFL that are really talented, but they just aren't winners. So far, in his career that's Brown, he's incredibly skilled, but he's not a winner, not yet at least.

[Shooters1221]

What's this crap that I read on Pro Football Talk that Brown was pouting after the Steelers first TD because he wanted the ball on that play.  I hope that's not true.

Totally believable, honestly King, the dude is the stereotypical self-centered superstar.

I honestly think if you gave Brown the choice between (1) a game where he has 10 catches for 175 yards and 2 TDs and the team loses OR (2) a game where he has 4 catches for 40 yards and no TDs but the team wins... He'd pick option 1 every time.

I'm not quite ready to put it as he is out of control...YET. I mean, yes, he has that certain narcissistic attitude that really needs to be controlled before it's to the point of say Deon, or Irvin and T.O. level. Every talented receiver in history wants the ball on every play. Key even wrote a book on it and Bradshaw wanted shoot Swann and Stalls almost every play. With social media the way it is now, it's just easier to "broadcast?" such behavior. Bottom line here is I think this upcoming season will say a lot about where AB's head is because of all the shit that happened this year with celebration penalties, 'instaface'(LOVE THAT BB), and so on. I hope your wrong mikey, but you might not be.

[mikeyd23]

I'm not quite ready to put it as he is out of control...YET. I mean, yes, he has that certain narcissistic attitude that really needs to be controlled before it's to the point of say Deon, or Irvin and T.O. level. Every talented receiver in history wants the ball on every play. Key even wrote a book on it and Bradshaw wanted shoot Swann and Stalls almost every play. With social media the way it is now, it's just easier to "broadcast?" such behavior. Bottom line here is I think this upcoming season will say a lot about where AB's head is because of all the shit that happened this year with celebration penalties, 'instaface'(LOVE THAT BB), and so on. I hope your wrong mikey, but you might not be.

I get that every talented receiver wants the ball, I really do. The difference comes when a WR is willing and happy to not get the ball if it betters the outcome for the team. Now if it doesn't, then he's got a valid complaint and I can roll with that.

With AB though, I think it's becoming a pile up effect of a lot of different things. Selfish behavior is one of those things, in terms of putting his stat line before the teams win-loss record. But it's more than that. It's the FB live thing, its the custom cleats that almost go him ejected, its the TD celebration penalties he insisted on taking, etc...etc... 

[Shooters1221]

I'm not quite ready to put it as he is out of control...YET. I mean, yes, he has that certain narcissistic attitude that really needs to be controlled before it's to the point of say Deon, or Irvin and T.O. level. Every talented receiver in history wants the ball on every play. Key even wrote a book on it and Bradshaw wanted shoot Swann and Stalls almost every play. With social media the way it is now, it's just easier to "broadcast?" such behavior. Bottom line here is I think this upcoming season will say a lot about where AB's head is because of all the shit that happened this year with celebration penalties, 'instaface'(LOVE THAT BB), and so on. I hope your wrong mikey, but you might not be.

I get that every talented receiver wants the ball, I really do. The difference comes when a WR is willing and happy to not get the ball if it betters the outcome for the team. Now if it doesn't, then he's got a valid complaint and I can roll with that.

With AB though, I think it's becoming a pile up effect of a lot of different things. Selfish behavior is one of those things, in terms of putting his stat line before the teams win-loss record. But it's more than that. It's the FB live thing, its the custom cleats that almost go him ejected, its the TD celebration penalties he insisted on taking, etc...etc...

Yes, I see all of your points, and agree, maybe I'm just hoping.

[mikeyd23]

Yes, I see all of your points, and agree, maybe I'm just hoping.

I'm with you, I hope they can work it out. AB is super talented and I'd love to see him play for the Steelers for the remainder of Ben's career. I just don't know if it is going to work out.

[Stadler]

Here's the thing, though:  the idea that "the best players want the ball" isn't "want the ball every play".  That's narcissism.  WINNERS "want the ball" meaning "aren't afraid or apprehensive to have the ball when it matters most".   That's the difference.   

Julian Edelman or Gronk "want the ball" meaning, when it's 4th and 23 with 0:23 second left on the clock, they're mentally ready to make the big play.   If the ball goes to Gronk and Pats win, Edelman is going to be as happy as if he was the guy spiking the ball in the endzone, I guarantee you.

(That's in part why Welker - on paper the ideal Belichick player - was allowed to leave.)

[mikeyd23]

Here's the thing, though:  the idea that "the best players want the ball" isn't "want the ball every play".  That's narcissism.  WINNERS "want the ball" meaning "aren't afraid or apprehensive to have the ball when it matters most".   That's the difference.   

Julian Edelman or Gronk "want the ball" meaning, when it's 4th and 23 with 0:23 second left on the clock, they're mentally ready to make the big play.   If the ball goes to Gronk and Pats win, Edelman is going to be as happy as if he was the guy spiking the ball in the endzone, I guarantee you.

(That's in part why Welker - on paper the ideal Belichick player - was allowed to leave.)

Totally agreed, good post.

[Shooters1221]

Here's the thing, though:  the idea that "the best players want the ball" isn't "want the ball every play".  That's narcissism.  WINNERS "want the ball" meaning "aren't afraid or apprehensive to have the ball when it matters most".   That's the difference.   

Julian Edelman or Gronk "want the ball" meaning, when it's 4th and 23 with 0:23 second left on the clock, they're mentally ready to make the big play.   If the ball goes to Gronk and Pats win, Edelman is going to be as happy as if he was the guy spiking the ball in the endzone, I guarantee you.

(That's in part why Welker - on paper the ideal Belichick player - was allowed to leave.)

Yup, that's why I stated in my post that AB's narcissism needs to be dealt with sooner, rather than later, because he's young enough to  possibly channel that into a more team first attitude, or maybe not. As I said, I'm just hoping because he can run a serious rout and can catch and I have no confidence in any other receiver on that team, including Martavis Bryant, who is quick, but those hands? I'm not sold on yet.

[Stadler]

Some of it is coaching. Tomlin has to sit Brown down and lock that shit up.   You want to be a team player or not?   And if "not", let him go, and get the word out.   I don't think it's a miracle that Belichick gets guys like LeGarrett Blount to tone down the 'tude, and now that guy is playing like one of the three best backs in the league.   Moss too (though it didn't last).  And you'll note that these guys aren't leaving NE and going other places. 

[bosk1]

Well, he should have sat him down for the beginning of the Pats game.

[mikeyd23]

Some of it is coaching. Tomlin has to sit Brown down and lock that shit up.   You want to be a team player or not?   And if "not", let him go, and get the word out.   I don't think it's a miracle that Belichick gets guys like LeGarrett Blount to tone down the 'tude, and now that guy is playing like one of the three best backs in the league.   Moss too (though it didn't last).  And you'll note that these guys aren't leaving NE and going other places.

A lot of it is certainly coaching. It's the workplace environment, Tomlin creates a certain environment in that workplace where AB felt like he could get away with all the crap he pulls. So he continues to pull it.

[KevShmev]

Colin Cowherd had has the same take on Tomlin for a while, one I agree with: the Steelers are't buttoned up.

Remember the assistant coaches going on to the field last year in the playoff game against the Bengals and getting into it with players?

Remember Antonio Brown's stunt last week in the locker room?

Remember Tomlin trying to trip a Raven on a punt return a few years ago?

Those are things you see out of a team that doesn't stress discipline.  They aren't buttoned up.

It's no wonder that the Patriots destroy the Steelers nearly every time they play.  The Patriots stress discipline and details like no other team I've ever seen.  The Steelers are the perfect matchup for them in that regard.

[PowerSlave]

Remember the assistant coaches going on to the field last year in the playoff game against the Bengals and getting into it with players?

You may want to go back and investigate what really happened in that situation before you bring it up.

[King Postwhore]

So Joey Porter is innocent?  Lol

[KevShmev]

I don't need to investigate it; I watched it live.

What other teams have had assistant coaches on the field getting into it with players on the other team? 

I'll hang up and listen, PowerSlave.

[PowerSlave]

So Joey Porter is innocent?  Lol

In that particular situation? For the most part, yes. He shouldn't have been on the field, but that's a rule that about every team from time to time has ignored. Watch enough football games and you'll see assistant coaches on the field during time-outs.

Burfict admitted in an interview that Joey complimented him rather than attacked him. However, his dumbass team-mate seen Joey say something to him and decided to attack without knowing what was said.

[PowerSlave]

"We all know Joey Porter. Joey Porter, all he does is talk. But, it was nothing going on between me and him. But, Adam obviously got a little bit fed up, like, why are you on the field right now talking smack to my teammates. Adam didn't know that he was actually giving me some good words of wisdom. When Joey Porter came on, he was like, man, I actually really respect your game. And at that point, I didn't want to hear that."

Anderson the interjects in the interview by saying, ""He said that to you? So he [Jones] made a mistake."

"He made a mistake," Burfict said, "but Joey shouldn't have been on the field talking. Adam got my back, 100, 110%, I respect him, because I told him, 'man, he wasn't saying nothing bad like that', one of the refs was looking at Adam and right when Adam like kind of pushed Joey Porter, he was like, 'oh, this is it, he just threw it,'. So I'm like, man, I kind of feel like we were cheated a little bit."

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2016/3/4/11158886/bengals-lb-vontaze-burfict-tells-what-steelers-coach-joey-porter-was

[King Postwhore]

No coach should antagonize the situation.  He's there to defuse the situation which Porter didn't.   That's a coach does.

[PowerSlave]

No coach should antagonize the situation.  He's there to defuse the situation which Porter didn't.   That's a coach does.

Other than being on the field at a time when he shouldn't have been, what exactly would you say that he did to antagonize the situation?

[KevShmev]

Still no answer to the question:

What other teams have had assistant coaches on the field getting into it with players on the other team? 

And that doesn't address the other incidents.

What A. Brown did last week just shows how little respect he has for his coach, and I guarantee that if their best player doesn't respect Tomlin, he is not alone.  And when I say "doesn't respect,", I don't mean "not like."  He doesn't respect his authority as the coach, and that is the issue.  Tomlin is like the parent who wants to his kid's friend AND parent, and those are usually the kids with the least amount of discipline. 

[King Postwhore]

And Joey didn't have words?  Joey is a ticking time bomb.  If a coaches on the Pats did that I'd have issues with him. Coaches are there to diffuse the situation. Not exacerbate the situation with Joey did.

[PowerSlave]

Still no answer to the question:

What other teams have had assistant coaches on the field getting into it with players on the other team? 

And that doesn't address the other incidents.

What A. Brown did last week just shows how little respect he has for his coach, and I guarantee that if their best player doesn't respect Tomlin, he is not alone.  And when I say "doesn't respect,", I don't mean "not like."  He doesn't respect his authority as the coach, and that is the issue.  Tomlin is like the parent who wants to his kid's friend AND parent, and those are usually the kids with the least amount of discipline.

I never said that there were other coaches getting into it with players on the other team. If I had claimed that there were then it would be a valid question. What I did say is that your perception of the situation is wrong, and I stand by that.

I also never claimed that your other points were wrong. You're just trying to score internet forum points because you hate my team and think I'm an asshole. That's ok. I don't really mind, or take offense. The fact remains that you brought up the Porter incident for the wrong reason and won't admit when you're wrong.

In fact, you're trying to use the AB situation to bolster your point against me. The problem is, if you scroll back a few pages then you'll see that I said the exact same thing.

[PowerSlave]

And Joey didn't have words?  Joey is a ticking time bomb.  If a coaches on the Pats did that I'd have issues with him. Coaches are there to diffuse the situation. Not exacerbate the situation with Joey did.

Yes, he had words. Kind words that I quoted and are covered in the article that I posted.

[King Postwhore]

I know Joey Porter. I've seen the video.   He antagonized the situation. 

[PowerSlave]

I know Joey Porter. I've seen the video.   He antagonized the situation.

So, the fact that one of the players involved says the exact opposite means nothing? A player for the opposition that has nothing to gain by defending him, by the way?

I never claimed that Joey Porter is a saint. In fact, he has almost always been one of those players/coaches that has had some issues around him. However, this one situation most fans have many of the facts backwards.

[King Postwhore]

Joey has a history.   One player from one story doesn't change anything.


Like I said, it a Pats coaching did this is would be appalled.

[PowerSlave]

Joey has a history.   One player from one story doesn't change anything.

And once again, I never claimed otherwise. I'm speaking of a single situation that I didn't even bring up in the first place. The claim about the situation that I'm commenting on was baseless and completely wrong as proven by the evidence that I've provided.

[King Postwhore]

I think Vontaze is a jackass and guilty on many things but it is against the rules and Porter was fined.  That is an indictment in itself.   

Joey broke the rules for assistant coaches.

[PowerSlave]

I think Vontaze is a jackass and guilty on many things but it is against the rules and Porter was fined.  That is an indictment in itself.   

Joey broke the rules for assistant coaches.

I agree. He shouldn't have been on the field. I never said otherwise. In fact, I brought that up from the beginning. I'm disputing the fact that people are claiming that he started a fight.

Now speaking about Pacman Jones: If he can't deal with the fact that a coach is standing on the field, and feels like he needs to make physical contact with him then that's his (and his team's) problem. If he didn't think that JP should have been on the field (rightly so), then he should have brought it to the attention of the refs. He didn't handle it correctly and he decided to start a physical altercation.