How Well Do You Understand The Story line of The Astonishing?

[El Barto]

I've seen a lot of operas which makes grasping this pretty simple. This really is straight out of any classic libretto, replete with an abundance of cheese. I always love the old trope that the evil antagonist spends the entire time plotting horrible things, and then at the end suddenly realizes "holy shit, I've been wrong all this time! You're all forgiven and I've learned a valuable lessen and thus will be a swell guy from here on out. Let's all sing a song about Peace, Love and Understanding now."

[Enalya]

Nice question.
The first listen I read the booklet along with the songs (else I couldn't hear the difference between characters well enough) - I was only confused at the end where the shadow approaches and you expect it to be someone and then it's not and it's not really clear who's dying (to me). Then I was puzzled at the end where Arhys is supposed to be dead but speaks again. Soon enough I found out he's a ghost then. Sure, anything goes xD

[Calvin6s]

I've seen a lot of operas which makes grasping this pretty simple. This really is straight out of any classic libretto, replete with an abundance of cheese. I always love the old trope that the evil antagonist spends the entire time plotting horrible things, and then at the end suddenly realizes "holy shit, I've been wrong all this time! You're all forgiven and I've learned a valuable lessen and thus will be a swell guy from here on out. Let's all sing a song about Peace, Love and Understanding now."

Well, you just didn't like the rewrite.  The producer's cut ended with the two deaths and framing of Gabriel.  Gabriel was thrown in prison and the NOMACs received an OS update.

The financial backers didn't like it and demanded a happy ending.  Petrucci shrugged.  Rudess said "what if Gabriel was a Wizard?"  Petrucci didn't like the wizard part, but more or less adopted the sorcery without using the term wizard (because of his Prequel Trilogy hate).

Or the more condensed version.  The financial backers said "needs more cheese."

Just some whine to go with the cheese.

[Orbert]

What I like is that it wasn't really a sudden transformation, and it wasn't a total 180-degree shift.  Nefaryus grew up enjoying music, listening to the iPod his dad gave him.  It was only after years of having to rule, and losing sight of what was really important, that he became the bitter, nasty dude he is at the beginning of the story.  Was he truly evil, or did he have to make a lot of difficult decisions and consider the good of the many versus the good of the few, etc.?  Of course he seems evil to those getting the short end of the stick, but to the upper class, he was a great guy.

Either way, he was definitely moved by hearing Gabriel sing; it stirred something in him that was long forgotten.  Nearly losing his daughter, and realizing that he could have lost his son, helped him get his priorities straight.  And of course there's the astonishing power of music.  Yeah, at its core it's an old story, but I like the variations.  He wasn't just some evil dude; he was a man who'd gotten screwed up along the way, and got straightened out by the end.

[ariich]

What I like is that it wasn't really a sudden transformation, and it wasn't a total 180-degree shift.  Nefaryus grew up enjoying music, listening to the iPod his dad gave him.  It was only after years of having to rule, and losing sight of what was really important, that he became the bitter, nasty dude he is at the beginning of the story.  Was he truly evil, or did he have to make a lot of difficult decisions and consider the good of the many versus the good of the few, etc.?  Of course he seems evil to those getting the short end of the stick, but to the upper class, he was a great guy.

Either way, he was definitely moved by hearing Gabriel sing; it stirred something in him that was long forgotten.  Nearly losing his daughter, and realizing that he could have lost his son, helped him get his priorities straight.  And of course there's the astonishing power of music.  Yeah, at its core it's an old story, but I like the variations.  He wasn't just some evil dude; he was a man who'd gotten screwed up along the way, and got straightened out by the end.

Agreed on all counts.

I've seen a lot of operas which makes grasping this pretty simple. This really is straight out of any classic libretto, replete with an abundance of cheese. I always love the old trope that the evil antagonist spends the entire time plotting horrible things, and then at the end suddenly realizes "holy shit, I've been wrong all this time! You're all forgiven and I've learned a valuable lessen and thus will be a swell guy from here on out. Let's all sing a song about Peace, Love and Understanding now."

I do know what you mean, and the avoidance of that cliche is why Don Giovanni is such a bloody great opera.

[Bill]

As has been noted, if you read the story on the website in conjunction with the lyrics it is easy to understand it thoroughly, cheese and all. As a newbie, now moving on to my second DT album (TA now Images and Words), I have to say the lyrics on many of the songs on I&W are impenetrable in comparison.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, will we ever know why, at the beginning of the whole marketing campaign, the Empire newsletter was labeled in the code as "good guys" and the Militia were the "bad guys" instead? 

(And for the record... I guess that, technically, the outcome of the story is that Lord Nafaryus stays in power and the Ravenskill Rebel Militia is disbanded. Not bad for an happy ending  )

[Calvin6s]

From my point of view the jed ... Ravenskill are evil.

[Calvin6s]

Has anybody tried to find some serious deeper meaning to the story or is it accepted that it is more or less straightforward with only strained relationships to the current music scene?

[MirrorMask]

Has anybody tried to find some serious deeper meaning to the story or is it accepted that it is more or less straightforward with only strained relationships to the current music scene?

https://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/The_2de74d_2130342.jpg

This is my approach to the story. I believe that's exactly what JP felt like telling, mixing his love of these kind of stories with the initial question "What if machines take over from humans even the duty of creating music?"

[Orbert]

A literal approach is fine for a first pass, but to leave it at that and say that that's all that was intended is naive.  Without question, there is symbolism in literature and other forms of art.



This strikes me as something a frustrated high school kid might say when his teacher asks him to find the symbolism in a story.  Yeah, maybe the curtains were blue because the author felt like dishing up a bit of description and he needed a color.  It's also entirely possible that they do symbolize something.  If the author makes a point of mentioning color, you don't think maybe it's important?  One person's house is decorated in bright colors, another's in dull, drab tones, and the author makes a point of mentioning that.  Do you think maybe there's a reason for that, or is the author just giving you some detail because he thinks it's a good idea to do that?  At the very least, it says something about the personalities of the characters, and that at least is more meaningful than "the curtains were fucking blue".

In The Astonishing, music can easily be seen a metaphor for all artistic expression.  It's no coincidence that a lot of dystopian sci-fi centers on loss of freedom and human expression.  I don't think it's a coincidence that a musician would have a high regard for music as artistic expression, and therefore if he were inclined to write dystopian sci-fi, it would come about as a major theme in the work.

[Calvin6s]

Here's my not serious "not so deep" meaning (especially since I still haven't read the lyrics once)

Nefaryus = MTV
NOMACs = reality TV shows
Gabriel = DT
Faythe = MTV audience
Daryus = Program director
Music Player - MTV video

Nefaryus.  You need to get rid of those NOMACs and bring back the music player.  Our research shows Faythe prefers the music player.  Daryus will have none of it and Faythe is accidentally killed off.  Gabriel sneaks in a music player and Faythe returns like the glory days.  Let's party and play more music player.

MTV.  You need to get rid of those reality TV shows and bring back the music videos.  Our research shows the audience prefers the music videos.  MTV's program director will have none of it and the MTV audience is accidentally killed off.  Dream Theater sneaks in the Pull Me Under video and the audience returns like the glory days.  Let's party and play more music videos.

I think Xander is Honey Boo Boo, but like in real life, I don't care about that character.

BTW, I love "What your English teacher thinks the author meant."  Orbert had a good response, but I think the overlapping circles is awesome.  The words underneath it betray the circles though.

[MirrorMask]

Well, of course the image is for lulz and is not very serious, but coincidence wants that today in a book (it uses the subway stations in Milan to connect various stories and discussions about the places of the town nearby the stations, and the writer recollects his personal memories, and one was about how he enjoyed to come up with his own meaning, against the widely accepted one, of stories and poetry) I read a quote from renowed italian poet Eugenio Montale that, about the basically same issue, said "If I wanted to say that, I would have said that".

I agree as well with Orbert's point, but we have at least one writer confirming that, indeed, the curtains were f'kin blue 

About The Astonishing I still think that a story about a dystopian future and a dude with a gift for long forgotten music IS a story about a dystopian future and a dude with a gift for long forgotten music, and that the underlying theme about art vs machine is self evident, without the need to find an hidden meaning for the action of the characters. If JP comes out with more details and explanations in future interviews, of course I will be happy to learn them and say "Well, I just didn't get this song or character".

[Calvin6s]

I agree as well with Orbert's point, but we have at least one writer confirming that, indeed, the curtains were f'kin blue 

It is usually knowing when to stop as opposed to a basic relationship.
Teacher:  The curtains were blue isn't just a simple adjective.
Author:  Right on.
Teacher:  Depression and despair
Author:  Wait.  I was thinking calming ocean and the character's ability to find his center.
Teacher:  You're wrong.

There definitely are people that take it too far.  An example is a movie I don't even like, 8mm.  It came out around the time of Seven, 12 Monkeys, Pulp Fiction that were trying to shake up the more straightforward movie format.  But at some point, it goes from thought provoking to pretentious.  And the "shake up" becomes the norm.  I do recall watching 8mm in the theater and the bad dude saying
I wasn't beaten. I wasn't molested.Mommy didn't abuse me. Daddy never raped me. I'm only what I am. And that's all there is to it! There's no mystery. Things I do, I do them because I like them! Because I want to!

And the lack of twist becomes the twist.

So sometimes art has to be taken in according to the current surroundings.

[Orbert]

I guess I was fortunate to have English teachers (and others) who taught me to look for meaning in things, symbolism, analogy, metaphor, whatever, but also emphasized that one's interpretation was always subjective.  If the curtains being blue means nothing more to you than the curtains being blue, that's a valid interpretation, and it is possible that that's all they are.

Teacher:  The curtains were blue isn't just a simple adjective.
Author:  Right on.
Teacher:  Depression and despair
Author:  Wait.  I was thinking calming ocean and the character's ability to find his center.
Teacher:  You're wrong.

Teachers like that suck.  If it's open to interpretation, then it's open to anyone's interpretation, and there's no wrong answer, just the ones you don't agree with.

That said (I know, lots of different sides here), I think that there's times when the symbolism should be obvious, and if they're dropping like anvils throughout the story and somebody still doesn't see that, then I can understand teachers getting frustrated.  In my earlier example (which as far as I know I just pulled out of my ass, although it's possibly a repressed memory or something) where one character's house is decorated in all bright colors, and the other's is all drab, it seems to me that if the author made a point of mentioning all that, then at the very least that says something about the characters.  A student could say "Well maybe that's just the colors they like."  Sure, but even that says something about them.  "No it doesn't.  One guy just likes bright colors, and the other likes brown and gray."

Sometimes it's just detail that there's to enrich the story, but not really symbolic of anything.  The curtains were blue because it was a bit of detail.  And sometimes it does mean something.

I finally read the story of The Astonishing on the band's website, and I think it's great.  But as we've seen, it's also entirely possible to just enjoy the music and not have a clue what the story is.  And going the other way, it's possible to get more enjoyment out of it by digging into the story and lyrics and finding deeper meaning in them.  That's what art is all about.  It means different things to different people, and moves people not just differently, but by differing amounts as well.

[Dream Team]

As has been noted, if you read the story on the website in conjunction with the lyrics it is easy to understand it thoroughly, cheese and all. As a newbie, now moving on to my second DT album (TA now Images and Words), I have to say the lyrics on many of the songs on I&W are impenetrable in comparison.

Yes, beautifully poetic but very abstract. About half those songs have actual meaning confirmed by the lyric-writers, which make a lot more sense afterward.

[cramx3]

Good stuff Orbert.

When I was in school and the english teacher would ask to find symbolism, I just never understood it.  The author wrote the curtain is blue, that's what it means!

But as I've grown older, I've found the symbolism to be what is awesome about a story, and in a way "nuggets".  It took a long time for me to get that and realize the beauty in the art.

[Calvin6s]

I wouldn't put all the blame on "English teachers".  Foreshadowing, symbolism, etc. is everywhere in books, movies, etc.  Half the time I can't tell if I spotted something the author intended or if it is just my mind making a connection out of everything regardless of if it was the intent.  And many authors will never tell you, so it isn't like you can always have validation (or invalidated).  Petrucci even does this with some of his lyrics.

You can probably blame the English teacher for putting you in that frame of mind however 

[Orbert]

I guess it's because literature preceded movies and TV, and while it didn't really precede theater, plays did have to be written, so if there was foreshadowing, symbolism, etc., it was deliberate.  I say "English teachers" because that's where you first get into in-depth study of these devices.  I know there are college film study courses, and there might be some at the high school level these days; I doubt it, but I don't know.  If there are, they're not very common.

[hefdaddy42]

I have a degree in English, but I don't go looking for symbolism, metaphor, or subtext on my first read/listen.  First, there is plot and character - the actual story.

That other stuff reveals itself later.

The problem with looking for that stuff immediately or every time is to "find" or "discover" things that aren't there.  Context is everything, and some details are just to fill out the descriptions.  Sometimes (a lot of times), the curtains really are just blue.  Especially in a rock opera setting like this, told by a musician, not a writer/poet/director.

Which isn't to say that there is no deeper meaning in The Astonishing.  Obviously it is talking about the importance of real, organic music in the lives of people, as opposed to generic electronic music that is consumed by the masses.