The Astonishing Recurring Motifs

[SebastianPratesi]

That's a brilliant connection! I never noticed it before, but you're right! And welcome to DTF! 

Another connection, both musical and lyrical: The Answer ("They are finding faith in me...") -> Begin Again ("Then I found my faith in him...")

Thanks! I introduced myself in the Newb thread yesterday.
That one took a while for me to notice. It's really hard sometimes because some lines sung by a character remind you of something else sung by another character, usually in the other Act, so you get lost occasionally.

I'll try to post what I came up with later today. Would all of you prefer I included what has already been pointed out (for the sake of completeness) or would you rather I just posted other bits (for the sake of 'not repeating')??

[Luoto]

I'll try to post what I came up with later today. Would all of you prefer I included what has already been pointed out (for the sake of completeness) or would you rather I just posted other bits (for the sake of 'not repeating')??

I suggest doing a breakdown for each track, including what has already been posted. There will obviously be duplicates but it would be logical and easy to follow. We can split motifs and lyrics to their own "indexes" if necessary.

[SebastianPratesi]

I suggest doing a breakdown for each track, including what has already been posted. There will obviously be duplicates but it would be logical and easy to follow. We can split motifs and lyrics to their own "indexes" if necessary.

Good idea! Will do.

[obelix5150]

I didn't see if this was already mentioned, but one of my favorite thematic links is between A Tempting Offer and The Path That Divides.. the main theme of Tempting Offer is reworked as the climactic close of Path That Divides. That's one of my favorite thematic links because it's subtle and because of its narrative relevance (The theme of the track in which Arhys's fateful encounter with Daryus occurs is echoed when, as as a result of that first meeting, Daryus ends up killing Arhys).

On the whole, I am very impressed with the maturity and intelligence with which the guys use and reinterpret themes to help tell the story.

[ariich]

I didn't see if this was already mentioned, but one of my favorite thematic links is between A Tempting Offer and The Path That Divides.. the main theme of Tempting Offer is reworked as the climactic close of Path That Divides. That's one of my favorite thematic links because it's subtle and because of its narrative relevance (The theme of the track in which Arhys's fateful encounter with Daryus occurs is echoed when, as as a result of that first meeting, Daryus ends up killing Arhys).

Great spot, I hadn't noticed that one.

[RoeDent]

Chosen and Losing Faythe share the same vocal melody at the start.

[SebastianPratesi]

Well, this is what I came up with, including pretty much everything you've already spotted - if I'm forgetting something, feel free to tell me.

I named each theme/motif/progression, so it might be easier for me to remember and refer to those pieces being repeated somewhere else. So, for instance, the chord progression which opens the album is set to an organ, so I called it "Dark organ progression". Or, there is this bit (you'll know which one) which is sung first by Nafaryus, but mostly by her daughter, so I refer to it as "Faythe's theme".

If the original poster or any of you would prefer to copy/paste whatever you want from this, no problem at all. In fact, with this sort of threads, I think it would be cool to have some sort of 'collaborative', wikipedia-ish file, so that anyone gets a chance to add something. 

Also, I couldn't find any recurring theme or motif for some songs (like "The Gift Of Music" or "Whispers On The Wind"), which I think is weird. Maybe some of you can help me?

Anyway, here is Act 1:

1. Descent Of The NOMACs

2. Dystopian Overture
0:00   A. Dark organ progression (Im-II-IVm-V)
0:22   B. Nafaryus’ theme
0:44   C. Arhys’ theme
1:13   D. Heaven’s Cove’s theme
1:45   E. Sword fight motif
2:03   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (à la 1:36 in “Surrender To Reason”)
2:28   G. Faythe’s theme
2:56   H. Brothers’ theme
3:25   I. Playful motif
3:46   J. Daryus’ theme
4:00 K. Gabriel’s theme

3. The Gift Of Music

4. The Answer
0:00   L. The Answer intro
0:25   M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
1:14   N. The Answer chorus (by Gabriel)

5. A Better Life
4:07  D. Heaven's Cove theme (guitar and strings)
4:23  %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)

6. Lord Nafaryus
0:00   B. Nafaryus’ theme (by Nafaryus)
0:30   O. Tango motif
0:59   P. Short piano break
2:23   G. Faythe’s theme (by Nafaryus)
2:52   G. Faythe’s theme (minor key; by Nafaryus)

7. A Savior In The Square
0:00   Q. Savior motif
1:18   P. Short piano break (guitar; end of solo)
1:49   R. Royal motif (by Nafaryus)
2:53   R. Royal motif (by Gabriel)
3:44   G. Faythe’s theme (by Gabriel)

8. When Your Time Has Come
0:00 L. The Answer intro
0:35   S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel)
1:20   T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel)
3:21   U. Moment motif (by Faythe)

9. Act Of Faythe
0:00   K. Gabriel’s theme
1:06   G. Faythe’s theme (by Faythe)
2:23   T. WYTHC chorus (chord progression only)
3:57   R. Royal motif

10. Three Days
0:14   A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over piano)
0:18   +. Evil progression (by Nafaryus over piano) (Im-IIb-V-VIIm)
0:55   V. Gadget riff (by Nafaryus)
1:11   ~. Baroque progression (by Nafaryus) (IVm-VII-III-Im)
1:28   W. Bow-down motif (by Imperial Guards)
2:47   W. Bow-down motif (by narrator)

11. The Hovering Sojourn

12. Brother, Can You Hear Me?
1:27   H. Brothers’ theme (by Arhys)
3:05   X. Revolution theme (by Gabriel)
3:59   H. Brothers’ theme (by Gabriel)

13. A Life Left Behind
4:40   Y. Sinister motif (by Arabelle over strings)

14. Ravenskill
2:22   K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key)
4:12   U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)
5:47   Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence

15. Chosen
0:30   Z. Chosen verse (by Gabriel)
1:28   @. Reason motif (by Gabriel)

16. A Tempting Offer
0:39   J. Daryus’ theme (by Daryus)
1:19   W. Bow-down motif (à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
1:51   Y. Sinister motif (by Arhys/Daryus)
2:31   $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
3:19   J. Daryus’ theme (by Daryus)
3:44   Y. Sinister motif

17. Digital Discord

18. The X Aspect
1:38   C. Arhys’ theme (major key; by Arhys)
2:22   C. Arhys’ theme (by Arhys)
3:16  %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
3:28   H. Brothers’ theme (bagpipes)

19. A New Beginning
0:54   I. Playful motif (by Faythe)
1:10   B. Nafaryus’ theme (by Nafaryus)
1:45   I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Arabelle)
2:00   A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over organ)
2:18   ~. Baroque progression (orchestra)
3:32   I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Nafaryus)
5:15   +. Evil progression (guitar)
5:32   A. Dark organ progression (guitar)

20. The Road To Revolution
1:19   G. Faythe’s theme (minor key; by Faythe)
1:49   G. Faythe’s theme (by Gabriel)
2:20   G. Faythe’s theme (chord progression only; by Daryus)
2:34   X. Revolution theme (by Arhys)
3:05   W. Bow-down motif (by Nafaryus; à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)

[SebastianPratesi]

Here is Act 2:

1. 2285 Entr’acte
0:00   G. Faythe’s theme
0:14   S. WYTHC verse
0:24   M. The Answer verse
0:43   B. Nafaryus’ theme
0:58   V. Gadget riff
1:14   X. Revolution theme
1:27   @. Reason motif
1:40   Y. Sinister motif
1:53   W. Bow-down motif

2. Moment Of Betrayal
0:22   K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; similar to 2:22 in "Ravenskill")

3. Heaven’s Cove
0:44   D. Heaven’s Cove theme (guitar)
2:38   &. Heaven’s Cove verse (by narrator)
3:12   O. Tango motif (by narrator over strings)

4. Begin Again
0:54   Z. Chosen verse (cello)
1:28   N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
2:13   @. Reason motif (by Faythe and strings)
3:00   N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
3:15   @. Reason motif (alternate version by orchestra)

5. The Path That Divides
1:24   T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel’s voice)
3:43   E. Sword fight motif (by strings)
3:59   &. Heaven’s Cove verse (guitar)
4:06   $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
4:25   $. Offer motif (by narrator)
4:43   J. Daryus’ theme (strings)

6. Machine Chatter

7. The Walking Shadow
0:00   Metallica’s “Seek & Destroy”
0:15   K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; by Xander)*
0:42   K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; by Daryus)*
2:03   G. Faythe’s theme (soprano)
*(these two took me a while, but to me they sound like even darker versions of the ones in “Ravenskill” and “Moment Of Betrayal”; what gives it away for me are the last 3 notes in the phrase – when Xander is singing ‘You murderer!’, and Daryus ‘The night’s still young’. I always think of this notes as a reference to "Metropolis part 1" at 0:45)

8. My Last Farewell
0:28   #. Farewell chorus (by Gabriel)
1:03   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
3:15   I. Playful motif (minor key; guitar - although here it's 7/8 + 3/4)
3:21   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)

9. Losing Faythe
0:19   Z. Chosen verse (by Nafaryus)
0:49   @. Reason motif (by Nafaryus)
3:17   #. Farewell chorus (major key; by Nafaryus)

10. Whispers On The Wind

11. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
0:34   M. The Answer verse (by narrator)
2:17   T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel/townspeople; in triple meter)

12. Our New World
Basically all of the song: Q. Savior motif

13. Power down

14. Astonishing
0:00   G+K. Faythe’s theme married to Gabriel’s theme
0:37   K+G. Gabriel’s theme married to Faythe’s theme
1:23   H. Brothers’ theme (by Arhys’ spirit)
2:12   M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
2:44   G. Faythe’s theme (by Faythe)
3:32   X. Revolution theme (by Nafaryus)
4:10   #. Farewell chorus (chord progression only; by Arabelle over strings)
4:31   H. Brothers’ theme (by ensemble)
5:19   K. Gabriel’s theme (by ensemble)

[SebastianPratesi]

These are all the 30+ bits, in order of first appearance. The names might seem weird, but I think they are easy to remember; for instance, the 'U' bit was named "Moment motif" because it represents when Faythe sings "Lost in this moment..." or "This very moment...". Nevertheless, feel free to ask me about any name. Suggestions are welcome.

A. Dark organ progression
B. Nafaryus’ theme
C. Arhys’ theme
D. Heaven’s Cove’s theme
E. Sword fight motif
F. Frenetic 11/8 motif
G. Faythe’s theme
H. Brothers’ theme
I. Playful motif
J. Daryus’ theme
K. Gabriel’s theme
L. The Answer intro
M. The Answer verse
N. The Answer chorus
%. Better Life motif
O. Tango motif
P. Short piano break
Q. Savior motif
R. Royal motif
S. WYTHC verse
T. WYTHC chorus
U. Moment motif
+. Evil progression
V. Gadget riff
~. Baroque progression
W. Bow-down motif
X. Revolution theme
Y. Sinister motif
Z. Chosen verse
@. Reason motif
$. Offer motif
&. Heaven’s Cove verse
#. Farewell chorus

[SebastianPratesi]

Finally, and in case you are wondering: yes, I have a job. It's just that today was a holiday here in Argentina, so I had all those hours for myself 

[RoeDent]

Wow. Great job there! I look forward to cross-referencing between the songs to check these out.

[Mladen]

Me too. Great work, man. 

[erciccio]

Standing ovation, great job!!

I remember many reviews made just after the first listen that stated that there were no/ few recurring themes..

 

[the keyboard wizard]

Amazing! Thank you very much!! Now I have to listen again to the album and follow your analysis.

[genome]

This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again

[Luoto]

This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again

Yeah, the section starting from there might be the same motif altogether. Well spotted!

[cramx3]

Great job Sebastian, looking forward to listening to the times stamps and seeing the themes/motifs in the different songs.  Not that I didn't notice them, but knowing where they are is easy to find them.

[fischermasamune]

Great job!

No common themes between A Better Life and other songs?

[Evermind]

Great job indeed!

I would separate the "Bow down motif" in 1:28 from Three Days to the actual "Bow down" part by Imperial Guards and "With this frightening decree Nafaryus departs" Narrator's part in the end though. The last Nafaryus lines in A Road of Revolution reprise the Narrator's part, while the reprise in 2285 Entr'acte is the "bow down" part itself.

[Another_Won]

I usually keep a text document of the lyrics with the songs on my computer.  Well with this release I had to expand that and include the track descriptions.  Now I have to add a Motif key document.  This album is really a lot of work

[MirrorMask]

Excellent job Sebastian, thank you very much!

[SebastianPratesi]

Thanks to all of you for the feedback! I've always found helpful/interesting stuff in the forum, just wanted to contribute something.
Again, some of the motifs might not be completely correct, but that's what I'm hearing.

This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again

You're right, I didn't notice that one! Thanks! That would mean it makes its first appearance there.
I guess with each listen you start paying attention to different stuff, so there's probably a bunch of subtle stuff (like the one you mention) by only one instrument, or played slower as background, or whatever.

In a recent video interview, Jordan said that some themes re-appear played 'backwards'. I haven't found those yet.

Great job!

No common themes between A Better Life and other songs?

Well, I couldn't find any, nor in "The Gift Of Music". It's weird to me, since there is so much going on on both tracks. There surely is something, but I am missing it. If you find something, please post it!

Great job indeed!

I would separate the "Bow down motif" in 1:28 from Three Days to the actual "Bow down" part by Imperial Guards and "With this frightening decree Nafaryus departs" Narrator's part in the end though. The last Nafaryus lines in A Road of Revolution reprise the Narrator's part, while the reprise in 2285 Entr'acte is the "bow down" part itself.

Thank you!
You are spot on! I'll fix that.

[SebastianPratesi]

Also, and I haven't seen this mentioned before: the ending notes of Gabriel's theme reminds me of "Metropolis part 1". I think the place where this is the most evident is on "Ravenskill":

2:30 in "Ravenskill" = 0:45 in "Metropolis"
(well, the last C chord in "Ravenskill" is lower than the C on "Metropolis", but other than that they are the same notes, by a heavy guitar, on a minor key)

"Metropolis part 3" confirmed?

[Drake_Fury]

Kudos to you guys! I had heard a lot of those motifs but you really made me see a lot more in this thread.

Since you guys clearly have better musical ears than mine, here's a challenge:

In an interview, I saw (I think it was JP, but maybe it was JR, don't remember) saying that some motifs are other motifs but inverted. With sheets I could probably find them, but just from earring, I'm not that good.

I'd be really interested to see which motifs could be another one inverted. At first I thought it could be Daryus's theme versus either Ahrys's of Fayth's, but I really can't put my finger on it, my brain is not able to invert a melody in my head haha.

[Luoto]

I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.

EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.

[Luoto]

Again, some of the motifs might not be completely correct, but that's what I'm hearing.

Some of your interpretations actually had me raising eyebrows. I'd like to ask you, how did you come up with Gabriel's theme being in minor key (i.e. Ravenskill)? Is there more to it than the chord progression?

EDIT: Dammit, didn't mean to post a new reply here.

[Drake_Fury]

I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.

EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.

Interesting!, I'll listen to those particularily, A better Life and The X aspect would make a lot of sense, being 2 songs that revolves around Ahrys's love for his son...

[SebastianPratesi]

I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.

EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.

I'll check on those later, thanks.

Some of your interpretations actually had me raising eyebrows. I'd like to ask you, how did you come up with Gabriel's theme being in minor key (i.e. Ravenskill)? Is there more to it than the chord progression?

Well, I don't recognize the same chord progression in both bits. I believe they represent the same theme based on the ending of the phrase. In "Ravenskill", the music at 2:22 is in E minor, or the relative of G major, and the last notes in the phrase are F#-G-C, and the phrase's last chord is also C (the 4th degree of G major). If the theme was in A major, those last notes would be G#-A-D, ending on D (the 4th degree). And that's exactly what you hear in "Dystopian Overture" at 4:13.
I hear the same in "The Walking Shadow" - for instance, when Daryus sings 'Like father like son', the notes are F#-G-C, ending on a C chord.

Another weird example would be the Tango section which I think reappears in "Heaven's Cove" at 3:12 for a short while. They are in different keys, but there are these bits with the same background progression (IV - I), during which you hear the strings play ascending/descending short lines (some of them chromatic in both cases).

I get your point, though, and I too think I might be unconsciously seeing things which are not there in some cases.

Also: do you recognize the beginning chord progression/melodies in "The Road To Revolution" (the first minute or so)? I'm sure it must be somewhere else.

[rab7]

Well, I don't recognize the same chord progression in both bits. I believe they represent the same theme based on the ending of the phrase. In "Ravenskill", the music at 2:22 is in E minor, or the relative of G major, and the last notes in the phrase are F#-G-C, and the phrase's last chord is also C (the 4th degree of G major). If the theme was in A major, those last notes would be G#-A-D, ending on D (the 4th degree). And that's exactly what you hear in "Dystopian Overture" at 4:13.
I hear the same in "The Walking Shadow" - for instance, when Daryus sings 'Like father like son', the notes are F#-G-C, ending on a C chord.

Another weird example would be the Tango section which I think reappears in "Heaven's Cove" at 3:12 for a short while. They are in different keys, but there are these bits with the same background progression (IV - I), during which you hear the strings play ascending/descending short lines (some of them chromatic in both cases).

Also: do you recognize the beginning chord progression/melodies in "The Road To Revolution" (the first minute or so)? I'm sure it must be somewhere else.

Your ability to recognize this is amazing. May I ask how you've learned so much? Is it college music classes, or did you just pick this up from experience?

[SebastianPratesi]

Your ability to recognize this is amazing. May I ask how you've learned so much? Is it college music classes, or did you just pick this up from experience?

Thank you very much! I take that as a great compliment because I'm not a professional musician. I once started a career in composition, but left after the first semester. I did have private lessons on music theory for 4 months, though, and I think that helped me a lot.

However, I've played guitar since I was 11 (that's 15 years now), and during my early teens, I used to spend a lot of time in my room  with my CDs, trying to learn how to play songs by ear. Believe it or not, I learned a lot from listening to Blink-182. Later it was Metallica, The Beatles and Soda Stereo (a great band from my country - I might talk about them in another thread). Then, when I discovered Dream Theater, it was a whole new world of odd time signatures for me.

I had a couple of books, but yeah, I'd say listening to literally thousands of hours of music and trying to get what was going on was the best education I had. You start recognizing several chord progressions and melodies, or the relations between different notes/intervals. After that, it's just a matter of learning how they are named.

[adn]

Hi folks !

As you can see this is my first post here in this forum. I’m impressed by Sebastian Pratesi’s work. It seems that we have the same hobbies because a few days ago, I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club (and everyone who will find this interesting) and we agree about most of them. I’ve also worked about SFAM 16 years ago, but that’s another story 

the first video : links between Dystopian Overture and the album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoDUAMD4mQ

the 2nd video : links between the other songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3-Sv7IE88w

I chose 18 of the main repeated riffs and Sebastian's analysis showed me 4 or 5 recurrent riffs or sections that I wasn't aware of !

[pcs90]

Wow, some really excellent work going on in this thread!

One thing though, do we really know that having 2 sections with only the same chord progression and no actual similar theme are meant to be looked at this way? I mean, considering it's DT, it may be intentional, but it may not be. If the only thing that's the same are the chords themselves but not the melodies, rhythms or even basic style then I wonder if it'd be better to classify these in a separate list to avoid confusion between the actual musical themes and these?

Also, I always thought what is being called "Gabriel's Theme" here was "Astonishing Theme", since it ends the album and isn't really limited to Gabriel. I had always assumed Gabriel's theme was The Answer if anything. Maybe I'm wrong though...

[rab7]

Maybe I'm wrong though...

There is no wrong or right unless JP or JR explicitly comes out and says "This is the Astonishing Theme"

I do agree with you though, that it should be called the Astonishing Theme.

[SebastianPratesi]

Hi folks !

As you can see this is my first post here in this forum. I’m impressed by Sebastian Pratesi’s work. It seems that we have the same hobbies because a few days ago, I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club (and everyone who will find this interesting) and we agree about most of them. I’ve also worked about SFAM 16 years ago, but that’s another story 

the first video : links between Dystopian Overture and the album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoDUAMD4mQ

the 2nd video : links between the other songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3-Sv7IE88w

I chose 18 of the main repeated riffs and Sebastian's analysis showed me 4 or 5 recurrent riffs or sections that I wasn't aware of !

Hi, adn. I just joined the forum this week too. Your first video proved helpful to me a few days ago, as a matter of fact, because I hadn't noticed the recurring link between the fight in "The Path That Divides" and "Dystopian Overture". So, thanks to you as well!

I just watched your second video. I noticed, at 3:05, the recurring motif 8 - between "2285" and "The Road To Revolution". Maybe you meant "Lord Nafaryus"? Not a big deal, though.

Also: I remember reading about your work on Scenes From A Memory a couple of years ago. Is it still available somewhere? I never studied that album, so it would be a really interesting read for me. Thanks!

[SebastianPratesi]

Wow, some really excellent work going on in this thread!

One thing though, do we really know that having 2 sections with only the same chord progression and no actual similar theme are meant to be looked at this way? I mean, considering it's DT, it may be intentional, but it may not be. If the only thing that's the same are the chords themselves but not the melodies, rhythms or even basic style then I wonder if it'd be better to classify these in a separate list to avoid confusion between the actual musical themes and these?

Thanks!

Are you thinking of any specific example? Sometimes, when they are the same degrees, I am inclined to consider a chord progression a recurring "motif" (I'm not sure, but I think 'theme' is used for melodies specifically). However, as you say, in some cases it's a common progression (there are a lot of those, mostly involving just 2 chords), so it may not be intentional, and I'm imagining stuff. I guess only John and Jordan can confirm/deny. It would be cool to have a chat with them!