Author Topic: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs  (Read 23222 times)

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2016, 09:25:01 PM »
I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis.  :lol

What is your thesis on? What is your career?

Sociology. My thesis is on the homogenization of institutions.  :lol

I think my sociological training is what is helping me see latent structures in Dream Theater songs.  :lol

Offline Luoto

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2016, 11:19:21 AM »
Intro to The Road to Revolution has always reminded me of A Better Life, either the 5/8 bridge or the "chorus". Melodies are obviously different, don't know if they're counterpoints to each other or something.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 02:38:07 PM by Luoto »
Always too soon, always too late, always in between.

SebastianPratesi

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2016, 02:27:18 PM »
Into to The Road to Revolution has always reminded me of A Better Life, either the 5/8 bridge or the "chorus". Melodies are obviously different, don't know if they're counterpoints to each other or something.
Yes, it's been reminding me of the "A Better Life" chorus too, but I try not to trick myself - there must be another section in the album which features that same progression, it's way too long to not be referenced earlier (or after)!
I have some free time until I start working next week, so I think I'm going to start making a more organised/detailed database of what has been spotted so far, with corrections. Maybe, while re-listening to some songs with more attention, I might find the "Revolution" intro somewhere else.

Offline Luoto

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2016, 02:00:17 PM »
10. Three Days
0:00   R. Royal motif

"The crowd has grown, and all are mesmerized..." It's a direct continuation from Act of Faythe, weird there's not a seamless track change.

EDIT: Also... bingo! The note sequence heard in the intro of TRTR sounds like the exact same as the outro of Begin Again. Only half of the cycle though. The ending of TRTR might also be a major key version of the intro.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 03:51:41 PM by Luoto »
Always too soon, always too late, always in between.

SebastianPratesi

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2016, 01:17:15 AM »
10. Three Days
0:00   R. Royal motif

"The crowd has grown, and all are mesmerized..." It's a direct continuation from Act of Faythe, weird there's not a seamless track change.
Oh you mean the outro to "Act Of Faythe" = the intro to "Three Days", right? Good call!
(the soprano + piano at the very end of "Act Of Faythe" is really similar now that you mention it.)

EDIT: Also... bingo! The note sequence heard in the intro of TRTR sounds like the exact same as the outro of Begin Again. Only half of the cycle though. The ending of TRTR might also be a major key version of the intro.
Yeah, a few extra notes in "Begin Again", but they are pretty much the same. Cool!
As for the "Revolution" outro, I'm not sure about that one - it features way less notes than the intro, so it's hard to tell for me.

I just finished an intensive listening of the intro, and I am toying with the idea that the intro might consist of various different bits from different songs. This is how I break the intro down:

1st Phrase:  Em - G  |  C - G / D
2nd Phrase: Em - D  |  C - C / D
3rd Phrase:  Em - D  |  F - Am
4rth Phrase: Em - C  |  G - D
5th Phrase = 1st
6th Phrase = 2nd
7th Phrase = 3st
8th Phrase = Em - Eb (after that, the song goes to Gm, and Faythe starts her theme).

Now, as far as the chord progressions, I think these are possible matches:
  • 2nd Phrase = "When Your Time Has Come" chorus (1:22, twice) = "Act Of Faythe" chorus (2:22, once)
  • 4th Phrase = "Chosen" chorus (1:57, twice; they are in the same key, so it's easier to check)
Furthermore, the 1st Phrase is pretty much the same progression as 3:08 in "A New Beginning" (when Arabelle sings 'You knew how it felt to feel invisible'). There's always the possibility that I'm hearing it wrong and "Revolution" starts Em - D (instead of G), so in that case they would match. Still, they match at the very least in a 75% :P
As for the 3rd phrase, I haven't been able to spot anything in Act I. Maybe another day I find something in Act II.

As far as melodies, I also think that there are subtle references to earlier songs. These are some possibilities:
  • 1st Phrase = "Begin Again" outro
  • 3nd Phrase (0:15) = "Ravenskill" (1:47)
    The lines 'And all is clear', 'Trust me, don't be scared' & 'I am looking for your father' are extremely similar - they are even on the same key, so again it's easier to check. The note sequences are E-F#-G, and A-C-B, and they both appear a lot in Faythe's lyrics.
  • 4th Phrase (0:24) = "A Better Life" (0:23)
    When transposed, the melody (G-F#-E-D-B) is exactly the same as what the violin plays twice in "Life", although in different keys.

That's what I'm hearing. Some references I might be overthinking, but some seem intentional to me. I guess I'll see what I think of that section later on.

Offline Luoto

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #145 on: March 15, 2016, 07:24:30 AM »
Hmm... how's the music behind these lines?

On the path that divides
You were there by my side
There will be no betrayal tonight
I found courage and strength
In the words you once sang
Tore the truth from the lies

On the path that divides

Parts in italics are more or less direct references to When Your Time Has Come.
Always too soon, always too late, always in between.

SebastianPratesi

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Re: The Astonishing Recurring Motifs
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2016, 10:46:36 AM »
Hmm... how's the music behind these lines?

On the path that divides
You were there by my side
There will be no betrayal tonight
I found courage and strength
In the words you once sang
Tore the truth from the lies

On the path that divides

Parts in italics are more or less direct references to When Your Time Has Come.
Oh yeah, the lyrics are a total reference to "When Your Time Has Come". I think they also did that sort of thing (where one character sings the modified lyrics that a character sang earlier) in Scenes From A Memory. Faythe also sings a modified "The Answer" chorus in "Begin Again", right?

As far as the music, the melody does sound similar in some parts, more evidently at the end: in "TPTD", the last time James sings 'Path that divides' the notes are F#-E-D#-C#, which is a one tone transposition of E-D-C#-B - the 'Path that divides' in "WYTHC". The 'Courage and strength' also matches 'Facing the' in "WYTHC".

The chords? I don't think they share anything.
  • "TPTD" - there are some shifts in the keys of the section, so I put the fundamental chord darker.
    E G#m | B D#m | E G#m | F# E | F#m A | C#m E | G#m B | F# E
  • "WYTHC"
    Bm A | G | Bm A | G | Bm A | G F#m | Em | A
Now that I think about it, the chord progression behind the guitar solo in "TPTD" (3:59) sounds like a heavier, more dramatic version of the underlined part in "WYTHC". You lower the 4th chord by a semitone, add a few ascending notes at the end (to bridge between the 5th and 6th chords), and that's it really!

(If that's so, then I made a mistake by calling it a reference to "Heaven's Cove", although the guitar solo itself actually reminds me of that song).

So, maybe we can add some of those "WYTHC"  lyrical/musical references to "TPTD".
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 10:53:03 AM by SebastianPratesi »