The Astonishing Recurring Motifs

[SebastianPratesi]

Yeah, I noticed. Although I haven't found anything convincing in the other NOMAC tracks.

I noticed today is the short dramatic bit in "A Savior In The Square" at 3:20 (right after Gabriel says 'ecstasy') is in a way similar to Daryus' monologue in "A Tempting Offer" (at 3:19). Both are over a heavy dissonant chord, and the fast keyboard (or is it NOMAC?) line in "Savior" sounds very similar to the piano in "Offer". I slowed down both parts but couldn't quite figure out the notes in either, so I'm not sure.

Anyway, I'm happy because today I was able to 'understand' the end of "The Walking Shadow". It took me like 2 hours of rewinding/pausing, but now I know the structure/time signatures for each instrument (well, minus keyboards). It was hard, because the section starts with bass only, and the notes initially sound like played at random times, but after a while it all makes sense.

It's not a recurring theme, but that section is my favourite from the album (behind the "Overture"'s sword-fight), and possibly my overall favourite by the band. So amazing!

[Luoto]

Hmm... time to put on our propel hats again

7. The Walking Shadow
0:00   Metallica’s “Seek & Destroy”

I spotted a matching guitar lick for this and it's in Dystopian Overture, at 0:14 (apparently the last two chords in the Dark Organ progression). The Bow-down motif also has a similar finish in the narrator section of Three Days, modified accordingly.

[SebastianPratesi]

I think I agree with you about the "Dystopian Overture" lick - I find it's similar to two places in "The Walking Shadow"'s riff:

-The beginning (the first 5 eighth notes): they are not the same notes even when transposed, but they have their similarities.
-The end (the last 4 eighth notes): when transposed, pretty much the same as the lick (minus its first note). The only difference is in "Dystopian Overture" the interval starting at B should be a 4th, not a 2nd; but, since the lick is over an Em chord, it's like the 4th is in fact there.

I checked the part you mention on "The Walking Shadow", and that one I'm not sure. Do you mean the finish "before" the narrator comes in? Or while the narrator finishes?

[aurorablind]

Did anyone notice the Lord Nafaryus connection in the first vocal-line of "The Road to Revolution"? (1:19)
"He only see what he desires to see" is basically the same melody as "Into the far off reaches of the land"

[Luoto]

Did anyone notice the Lord Nafaryus connection in the first vocal-line of "The Road to Revolution"? (1:19)
"He only see what he desires to see" is basically the same melody as "Into the far off reaches of the land"

Yeah, both of these are basically a minor key version of Faythe's theme (Lord Nafaryus at 2:23). We have a pretty extensive list on page 2.

I checked the part you mention on "The Walking Shadow" "Three Days", and that one I'm not sure. Do you mean the finish "before" the narrator comes in? Or while the narrator finishes?

I mean the two notes after the word 'departs', for example - when the progression cycle comes to an end. The vibe is kind of similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the motifs shared similarities.

[Luoto]

14. Ravenskill
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)

After this, the guitar seems to play something akin to The Answer chorus ("We will walk this road together...").

(Oh man, not again... another new reply instead of editing the previous post )

[SebastianPratesi]

I mean the two notes after the word 'departs', for example - when the progression cycle comes to an end. The vibe is kind of similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the motifs shared similarities.

Oh, thanks for correcting the song! My bad.
The vibe is similar, but I'm not sure about the notes, because in "Three Days" those notes are C and B - that is, the III and II of the key (in this case A). Whereas in "Overture" and "Shadow", the notes are VI and V of the respective keys.
Although in all cases the notes are in a dominant context, so maybe?

14. Ravenskill
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)

After this, the guitar seems to play something akin to The Answer chorus ("We will walk this road together...").

Hey, that one I agree with! In fact, the "We will walk this road together..." melody has always sounded familiar but I never noticed where from, until you pointed out . Now that I hear it, not only the guitar is practically the same, but the first 4 notes James sings too:

"We will walk this" = "They are found-ing"

Nice catch!

[Luoto]

Hey, that one I agree with! In fact, the "We will walk this road together..." melody has always sounded familiar but I never noticed where from, until you pointed out . Now that I hear it, not only the guitar is practically the same, but the first 4 notes James sings too:

"We will walk this" = "They are found-ing"

Yep, I started to wonder if that section is structured exactly the same as in "Begin Again", and indeed it is!

Other notes:
- The melody lines in The Answer intro and the intro to "Chosen" progress in a similar way. Chord progressions of these sections sound like mirrors to each other though.
- There's an eerie similarity in how the verses of "The Answer" and "Chosen" build up. It's hard to explain, but one way is to look at how they tail off right after these lines:

Am I not the man who I was meant to be?
vs.
If given just a chance

Again, not recurring motifs per se, but something to think about.

[jayvee3]

I could be really wrong here, as I don't really understand tempos, time stamps etc, but is there any correlation between the very opening piano on the gift of music and the answer? they kinda sound similar....

[Luoto]

14. Ravenskill
2:11 J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)

There seem to be various ways to catch a break with these, this time it was the official synopsis. I interpret this brief section as Daryus overseeing his sister's moves and gaining Arhys' whereabouts in the process. First appearance outside the overture.

[pdurbin22]

Just finally noticed after probably 40 listens that the opening piano of "The Answer" is the same as the opening synth of "When Your Time Has Come," just in a different key. Brilliant!

[Enigmachine]

I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates. Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.

[Luoto]

I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates.

The songs are in the same key, and I've argued that intros to both may be a result from the same jam session.

Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.

Can't recall any, but some subtle references may escape us because of it being so early on the album.

I updated the motifs index Sebastian previously put up, including some mistake corrections. I'll post it soon, there's just some things I'm gonna check first.

[Luoto]

Alright, here it is. Previously undocumented changes:

- Changed WYTHC chorus to WYTHC verse in "Hymn of a Thousand Voices", which I assume Sebastian originally meant.
- Introduced Xander's theme, denoted with the exotic Å. The recurrence isn't only connected with the "Gabriel's triad" of notes, but also the earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill.
- Tango motif (O.) wasn't a recurring theme, I found the similarity to be too vague in the end

ACT I

1. Descent Of The NOMACs

2. Dystopian Overture
0:00   A. Dark organ progression (Im-II-IVm-V)
0:22   B. Nafaryus' theme
0:44   C. Arhys' theme
1:13   D. Heaven's Cove theme
1:45   E. Sword fight motif
2:03   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (à la 1:36 in “Surrender To Reason”)
2:28   G. Faythe's theme
2:56   H. Brothers' theme
3:25   I. Playful motif
3:46   J. Daryus' theme
4:00   K. Gabriel's theme

3. The Gift Of Music
0:12   Q. Savior motif (à la Our New World)

4. The Answer
0:00   L. The Answer intro
0:25   M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
1:14   N. The Answer chorus (by Gabriel)

5. A Better Life
4:23  %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)

6. Lord Nafaryus
0:00   B. Nafaryus' theme (by Nafaryus)
0:59   P. Short piano break
2:23   G. Faythe's theme (by Nafaryus)
2:52   G. Faythe's theme (minor key; by Nafaryus)

7. A Savior In The Square
0:00   Q. Savior motif
1:18   P. Short piano break (guitar; end of solo)
1:49   R. Royal motif
2:53   R. Royal motif (by Gabriel)
3:44   G. Faythe's theme (by Gabriel)

8. When Your Time Has Come
0:00   L. The Answer intro
0:35   S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel)
1:20   T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel)
3:21   U. Moment motif (by Faythe)

9. Act Of Faythe
0:00   K. Gabriel's theme
1:06   G. Faythe's theme (by Faythe)
2:23   T. WYTHC chorus (chord progression only)
3:57   R. Royal motif

10. Three Days
0:00   R. Royal motif
0:14   A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over piano)
0:18   +. Evil progression (by Nafaryus over piano) (Im-IIb-V-VIIm)
0:55   V. Gadget riff (by Nafaryus)
1:11   ~. Baroque progression (by Nafaryus) (IVm-VII-III-Im)
1:28   W. Bow-down motif (by Imperial Guards)
2:47   W. Bow-down motif (by narrator)

11. The Hovering Sojourn

12. Brother, Can You Hear Me?
1:27   H. Brothers' theme (by Arhys)
3:05   X. Revolution theme (by Gabriel)
3:59   H. Brothers' theme (by Gabriel)

13. A Life Left Behind
4:40   Y. Sinister motif (by Arabelle over strings)

14. Ravenskill
2:11   J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)
2:22   Å. Xander's theme
4:12   U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
4:55   Z. Chosen verse (choir)
5:19   N. The Answer chorus (guitar)

15. Chosen
0:00   Z. Chosen verse
1:28   @. Reason motif (by Gabriel)

16. A Tempting Offer
0:39   J. Daryus' theme (by Daryus)
1:19   W. Bow-down motif (à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
1:51   Y. Sinister motif (by Arhys/Daryus)
2:31   $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
3:19   J. Daryus' theme (by Daryus)
3:44   Y. Sinister motif

17. Digital Discord

18. The X Aspect
1:38   C. Arhys' theme (major key; by Arhys)
2:22   C. Arhys' theme (by Arhys)
3:16   %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
3:28   H. Brothers' theme (bagpipes)

19. A New Beginning
0:54   I. Playful motif (by Faythe)
1:10   B. Nafaryus' theme (by Nafaryus)
1:45   I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Arabelle)
2:00   A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over organ)
2:18   ~. Baroque progression (orchestra)
3:32   I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Nafaryus)
5:15   +. Evil progression (guitar)
5:32   A. Dark organ progression (guitar)

20. The Road To Revolution
1:19   G. Faythe's theme (minor key; by Faythe)
1:49   G. Faythe's theme (by Gabriel)
2:20   G. Faythe's theme (chord progression only; by Daryus)
2:34   X. Revolution theme (by Arhys)
3:05   W. Bow-down motif (by Nafaryus; à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)


ACT II

1. 2285 Entr'acte
0:00   G. Faythe's theme
0:14   S. WYTHC verse
0:24   M. The Answer verse
0:43   B. Nafaryus' theme
0:58   V. Gadget riff
1:14   X. Revolution theme
1:27   @. Reason motif
1:40   Y. Sinister motif
1:53   W. Bow-down motif

2. Moment Of Betrayal
0:22   K. Gabriel's theme (minor key)

3. Heaven’s Cove
0:44   D. Heaven's Cove theme (guitar)
2:38   &. Heaven's Cove verse (by narrator)

4. Begin Again
0:54   Z. Chosen verse (cello)
1:28   N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
2:13   @. Reason motif (by Faythe and strings)
3:00   N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
3:15   @. Reason motif (alternate version by orchestra)

5. The Path That Divides
1:24   T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel’s voice)
3:43   E. Sword fight motif (by strings)
3:59   &. Heaven's Cove verse (guitar)
4:06   $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
4:25   $. Offer motif (by narrator)
4:43   J. Daryus' theme (strings)

6. Machine Chatter

7. The Walking Shadow
0:15   Å. Xander's theme (by Xander)
0:42   Å. Xander's theme (by Daryus)
2:03   G. Faythe's theme (soprano)

8. My Last Farewell
0:28   #. Farewell chorus (by Gabriel)
1:03   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
3:15   I. Playful motif (minor key; guitar - although here it's 7/8 + 3/4)
3:21   F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)

9. Losing Faythe
0:19   Z. Chosen verse (by Nafaryus)
0:49   @. Reason motif (by Nafaryus)
3:17   #. Farewell chorus (major key; by Nafaryus)

10. Whispers On The Wind

11. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
0:34   M. The Answer verse (by narrator)
2:17   S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel/townspeople; in triple meter)

12. Our New World
0:00   Q. Savior motif (basically all of the song)

13. Power down

14. Astonishing
0:00   G+K. Faythe's theme married to Gabriel's theme
0:37   K+G. Gabriel's theme married to Faythe's theme
1:23   H. Brothers' theme (by Arhys' spirit)
2:12   M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
2:44   G. Faythe's theme (by Faythe)
3:32   X. Revolution theme (by Nafaryus)
4:10   #. Farewell chorus (by Arabelle)
4:31   H. Brothers' theme (by ensemble)
5:19   K. Gabriel's theme (by ensemble)

[SebastianPratesi]

Thanks, man! I have to do some stuff around town now, but I'll give it a read at night, to see what's new to me.

14. Ravenskill
2:11 J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)

Oh yeah! The notes are A-F#, B-F#. If you reverse them (F#-A, F#-B) and transpose them, you find them played by the strings/choir at the end of "The Path That Divides", for example. Your explanation of the story makes sense.

I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates. Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.

Well, both the solo in "Savior" and chorus in "Time" start with an ascending minor 3rd and then play around F#-D-E-D, so they are similar indeed. In fact, I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it.

About "The Gift Of Music": some members have found the acoustic intro similar to the one on "The Answer", but they have different chord (and note) progressions, and different rhythmic accents, so I don't know. Besides that, there's nothing I have noticed. There also the possibility that some of the instrumental riffs/sections are recycled in other songs' instrumentals (maybe "Moment Of Betrayal"?). I guess with further listening something will emerge.

[SebastianPratesi]

Alright, here it is. Previously undocumented changes:

- Changed WYTHC chorus to WYTHC verse in "Hymn of a Thousand Voices", which I assume Sebastian originally meant.
- Introduced Xander's theme, denoted with the exotic Å. The recurrence isn't only connected with the "Gabriel's triad" of notes, but also the earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill.

Oh yeah, I meant 'WYTHC verse'. Thanks for pointing it out.
About 'Xander's theme': what do you mean with 'earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill'?
Also: do you see the "Moment Of Betrayal" riff as different to 'Xander's theme'? Maybe because of the first half of the riff? Because the second half ('Gabriel's triad' of notes, I believe) is pretty much the same.

[Luoto]

About 'Xander's theme': what do you mean with 'earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill'?
Also: do you see the "Moment Of Betrayal" riff as different to 'Xander's theme'? Maybe because of the first half of the riff? Because the second half ('Gabriel's triad' of notes, I believe) is pretty much the same.

Not easy to explain but I'll try It's the whole string of melody in Ravenskill, from 2:22 to 2:33; in the first half there's a counterpart to Gabriel's triad that goes D-B-F. Now compare that to "Don't hold your breath, the night's still young." Xander's lines are a little different and I see that as a variant of sorts.

Moment of Betrayal... well, it's in the same key, but not quite the same melody as far as I can tell. Managed to learn the intro section on piano (I know half the song, yay!) and I do find the note triad, just that it's either in the middle of the cycle or has an E thrown in between. Feel free to give me a time stamp if I'm missing something I also know the intro section backs the chorus as well.

[SebastianPratesi]

Not easy to explain but I'll try It's the whole string of melody in Ravenskill, from 2:22 to 2:33; in the first half there's a counterpart to Gabriel's triad that goes D-B-F. Now compare that to "Don't hold your breath, the night's still young." Xander's lines are a little different and I see that as a variant of sorts.

Oh yeah, you have a point - in Daryus' case the notes would be E - C# - G, right? (albeit in a different order).
In Xander's case, they would be G - E - Bb, also in a different order: G (what have you) - Bb (done) - E (you murderer).
OK, I'll call this 'Xander's triad' here.

Moment of Betrayal... well, it's in the same key, but not quite the same melody as far as I can tell. Managed to learn the intro section on piano (I know half the song, yay!) and I do find the note triad, just that it's either in the middle of the cycle or has an E thrown in between. Feel free to give me a time stamp if I'm missing something I also know the intro section backs the chorus as well.

During the first bar/chord, both the riff in "Ravenskill" (guitar) and "Moment" (piano/strings) start with E - F# - G - B (and then the other two notes are F# - G in different orders), so that's what makes them the same to my ears (well, besides the 'Gabriel triad' like you said). I'll call this 'Xander's intro' here.

Besides that, while checking out the songs once again, I just realized they share a chord progression:

• In "Ravenskill" (2:22 - 2:25):
  -'Xander's intro': Em
  -'Xander's triad': D + F
• In "Moment" (0:49 - 0:54); also repeating throughout (verses, the beginning of guitar solo and of outro):
  -Brace yourself my brother: Em
  -I have breaking news: D + F

Regarding the 'Xander's triad' you mentioned: I don't know if it's looking way too much into it, but I think it also appears disguised in "Moment Of Betrayal", when the guitar plays this 5 note riff at the end of the intro (0:47), the first and last chorus (1:57 & 5:20), the outro (5:47), etc:
C - B - F# - A - D#

If that last part was intended that way, then you would have all the elements of 'Xander's theme' - the intro, the chord progression, both triads - shared between both songs.

[Luoto]

Oh yeah, you have a point - in Xander's case the notes would be G - E - Bb, right?
Although, in a different order - G (your) - Bb (breath) - E (still).
OK, I'll call it 'Xander's triad' here (a major 6th and then a diminished 5th).

Yeah, Xander's lines sound like a different order. "Hold your breath" and "night's still young" roughly match D-B-F and F#-G-C from Ravenskill, respectively. It sounds like these two were stitched together, with a couple of extra notes. There's also the progression asymmetry because of 7/4 time.

[SebastianPratesi]

Also about "Ravenskill" - sorry if you have already brought it up, but I just noticed the melody (G-F#-A-E / G-F#-C-B) sung by Arhys, Faythe and the strings from 3:38 to 4:40  (foreshadowed by the guitar at 3:18 - 3:37) is similar to some recurrences of 'Daryus' theme':

• "A Tempting Offer"
  -Piano intro: Db-C-Eb-Bb. This is exactly the same as the first half of the melody, only in a different key.
  -Guitar riff: Db-C-Eb-A. Only the last not doesn't resolve. A more dramatic version.
• "The Path That Divides"
  Strings at 4:43 play a complete similar melody, but with the little twist from the guitar riff in "Offer"

[SebastianPratesi]

Yeah, Xander's lines sound like a different order. "Hold your breath" and "night's still young" roughly match D-B-F and F#-G-C from Ravenskill, respectively. It sounds like these two were stitched together, with a couple of extra notes. There's also the progression asymmetry because of 7/4 time.

Hey, I realized you quoted my post before I edited it. Shortly after I posted I realized I made a couple of mistakes, so I corrected them (mainly in that part you quoted). Just in case you were wondering.

[Luoto]

If only there were guitar tabs for Ravenskill and The Walking Shadow from those sections... that would definitely help clarify how clever the recurrence really is. The theme revolves around a few triads of notes, rather than chords.

EDIT: Threw this together, I hope it's somewhat understandable. One vertical bar represents one beat. The numbers below notes (1-4) mark the note triad recurrences.

Code: [Select]

RAVENSKILL (4/4)

By guitar (2:22)

| | | | | | | |

E E F# G B    F#   G D     B   C F (  ignored  ) E
       1    1     1     2     2     2

| | | | | | | |

(E) E F# G B    A   G F#    G     C  (C)
       3    3     3     4     4     4

THE WALKING SHADOW (7/8)

By Xander and guitar (0:15)

| | | | | | |

F#     F#  C     G
1     1

| | | | | | |

A# D     D#
1 4     4

| | | | | | |

F#     F#  C     G
4 1     1

| | | | | | | |

A# F#     F E
1 3     3 3


By Daryus (0:42)

| | | | | | |

C C C#     G
2     2

| | | | | | | |

E E F#     G C
2 4     4 4


[SebastianPratesi]

Hey, that makes sense! So, that Xander/Daryus section would be a more dramatic/distorted version of the one in "Ravenskill", right?

Especially Xander's part (no wonder - Xander has just lost his father). It's like those note triads re-appear but with some twists which make them more... 'dissonant'?

Off-topic: I would bet that the chord progression (or melody) in the intro of "The Road To Revolution" is from somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe you had any luck?

[the keyboard wizard]

I just wanted to tell you all (I already told sebastian) that I mentioned your analysis to John Petrucci when I interviewed him. He was quite pleased and impressed!!

[Luoto]

Off-topic: I would bet that the chord progression (or melody) in the intro of "The Road To Revolution" is from somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe you had any luck?

Try The Gift of Music at 2:19, sounds like both bits are periodically ascending and then descend in the end.

[SebastianPratesi]

Mm, I'm not hearing it. Maybe tomorrow with more attention.

I started finding the riff in "The Gift of Music" similar to the one in "Our New World". In "Gift" during the 2nd verse (0:51) you even have the riff in D, like the one in "World". They are basically the same notes, over the same chord:

• "Gift" (both bars in 7/4)
  A - A - F#/G - F# - E - D   |   A - A - F#/G/F# - E - D
• "World" (1st bar in 4/4, 2nd bar in 7/8):
  A - A - F#/G/F# - F#/G/A  |   A - A - G/F# - E/D - E/D

That 2nd verse in "Gift" also sounds similar to the beginning of the chorus in "World", starting at 0:57 - you have 2 bars of D, a bar of C, a bar of a couple of different chords, and then two other bars of D. If you speed up "World" on YouTube (at 1.25, or 1.5) it's more noticeable.

Thoughts on that one? I'm not sure about this chord progression bit, but the riffs MUST be intentional... right?

Also: I just realized the 'Bow-Down motif' in "Three Days" (1:28) is the same as Daryus singing your note triad #2 in "The Walking Shadow" (at 0:44, 0:50 and 0:56). Well, not exactly the same, because in "Three Days" the motif is in A (the first note of the triad), whereas in "Shadow" it's in E (the last note of the triad).

[adn]

I just wanted to tell you all (I already told sebastian) that I mentioned your analysis to John Petrucci when I interviewed him. He was quite pleased and impressed!!

I was there at the interview and John said "I knew someone would do this" 

Mm, I'm not hearing it. Maybe tomorrow with more attention.

I started finding the riff in "The Gift of Music" similar to the one in "Our New World". In "Gift" during the 2nd verse (0:51) you even have the riff in D, like the one in "World". They are basically the same notes, over the same chord:

• "Gift" (both bars in 7/4)
  A - A - F#/G - F# - E - D   |   A - A - F#/G/F# - E - D
• "World" (1st bar in 4/4, 2nd bar in 7/8):
  A - A - F#/G/F# - F#/G/A  |   A - A - G/F# - E/D - E/D

That 2nd verse in "Gift" also sounds similar to the beginning of the chorus in "World", starting at 0:57 - you have 2 bars of D, a bar of C, a bar of a couple of different chords, and then two other bars of D. If you speed up "World" on YouTube (at 1.25, or 1.5) it's more noticeable.
Thoughts on that one? I'm not sure about this chord progression bit, but the riffs MUST be intentional... right?

Right ! It must be ! Congrats Sebastian !

[Luoto]

Updated the list I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.

[SebastianPratesi]

I was there at the interview and John said "I knew someone would do this" 

Right ! It must be ! Congrats Sebastian !

Thanks! Can't wait to read/watch your interview.

Updated the list I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.

I'm sorry, a bit confused. Are you saying that the guitars in both songs match? Or that the guitar in "Gift" matches the piano in "Answer?

(Now that I think about it, the highest notes on the piano in "Answer" (B - A - A/G# - F# - E) sound to me like a slower, more melancholic version of the riff in "Gift")

Also, thanks for updating the list these last few days. Maybe when I have some more free time in a couple of weeks I'll sit down and carefully re-name/re-order the themes (so that the reading is much more comfortable).

[Luoto]

I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.

I'm sorry, a bit confused. Are you saying that the guitars in both songs match? Or that the guitar in "Gift" matches the piano in "Answer?

Guitar vs. guitar. They don't sound exactly the same from what I can hear, but they might share something.

[Enigmachine]

I think the last 30 seconds of TGoM might be similar to something in the middle of Ravenskill. Not sure, though.

[erwinrafael]

An interesting interview with JR recently is in his description of how the TA album was composed. They started with the story, then the music, then the lyrics.

So the music was written based on the story. Not the lyrics. So I think an analysis of recurring motifs should also be tied to points in the story, which would confirm whether a motif is indeed recurring or maybe there are just some surface similarities.

[SebastianPratesi]

Guitar vs. guitar. They don't sound exactly the same from what I can hear, but they might share something.

For sure! In fact, I had the same thought yesterday. Doesn't seem that weird of an idea as I initially thought.

I think the last 30 seconds of TGoM might be similar to something in the middle of Ravenskill. Not sure, though.

I checked the part you mention in "The Gift Of Music". The guitar riffs do sound similar to the ones in "Ravenskill" at 2:22, but they are not exactly the same. Maybe you meant something different?

So the music was written based on the story. Not the lyrics. So I think an analysis of recurring motifs should also be tied to points in the story, which would confirm whether a motif is indeed recurring or maybe there are just some surface similarities.

Oh, sure! We've been trying to establish some links between the music and the story. For instance, Luoto spotted a little reference to 'Daryus' theme' in the middle of "Ravenskill", which could represent his silent presence in that scene (eventhough he gets no lyrics in that song).

Now that you mention it, it might be an interesting and fun idea to incorporate those story-references to the list of recurrences, although it would also be a lot of hard work and involve much discussion. Maybe we could start doing it piece by piece, starting with the more obvious ones, to see what format might be convenient, or how well we understand the story.

In fact, I've been toying with the idea of starting a wikia devoted to the album - the musical aspect, of course, but also the story, the characters, the plot holes, etc. If there is enough interest, and other people willing to be part of it, I think it might end up really cool.

[erwinrafael]

I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis. 

[SebastianPratesi]

I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis. 

What is your thesis on? What is your career?