The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[Prog Snob]

I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change.   

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I didn't think TA's lyrics were that bad. I've heard worse. Maybe not cheesier, but worse.

[bosk1]

I love it when people cite good (or at the very least, passable) lyrics as an example of supposedly bad lyrics. 

[Prog Snob]

I love it when people cite good (or at the very least, passable) lyrics as an example of supposedly bad lyrics. 

Are you referring the clever dialogue or something  else? 

[bosk1]

Your post, Kowtow's immediately before you, and the endless string of quoting supposedly "bad" lyrics from A Nightmare To Remember or The Count of Tuscany that are supposedly unassailable proof-texts.

[ariich]

In addition to bosk's point, I'm wondering what's inherently superior about some of the supposedly great lyrics, beyond tastes and personal preferences of course.

[Prog Snob]

Well, I have no problem with the lyrics from ANTR and TCOT, but I feel the lines I mentioned from A Better Life are mediocre.

[Enigmachine]

I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change.   

This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.

[jakepriest]

I'm glad I don't give a crap about analyzing lyrics. I've never once had lyrics disrupt my enjoyment of a certain song.

[Prog Snob]

I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change.   

This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.

Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk.   

[Enigmachine]

I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change.   

This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.

Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk. 

Crap, not thinking straight.  For some reason I thought those were from SDV. I just realised they are from Voices, by JP. 

Still, different styles of lyrics don't prove one set is better than the other.

[Prog Snob]

I think recently their lyrics have improved again, The Astonishing excluded of course. It's hard though when you have to compete with an album like Awake whose lyrics were brilliant and thought provoking. When you go from "The spider in the window, the angel in the pool, the old man takes the poison, now the widow makes the rules" to "They ask me Arhys, could things be any tougher?, the answer's no surprise, yes you bet your life!", something needs to change.   

This comparison makes no sense. The lyrical voice of Kevin Moore writing an introspective swansong is going to be different from JP writing as a leader of a rebel militia in a Rock Opera context in a slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude (which many people look past). No style is inherently better than the other.

Kevin Moore? What are you talking about? Get your songwriters straight first, then we'll talk. 

Crap, not thinking straight.  For some reason I thought those were from SDV. I just realised they are from Voices, by JP. 

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

And whoever it was that said I shouldn't let lyrics disrupt my enjoyment of a song, well I'm not. Are we not allowed to discuss the lyrics? Do I have to like every word of every song to be able to enjoy them? Absolutely not. In my opinion they sound amateur. It's no different than someone else's opinion who things they sound perfectly fine. It's an opinion.

[Enigmachine]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

[Prog Snob]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

[Enigmachine]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

I'm discussing too. Where was I getting so sensitive? I like discussion. All I was doing was providing reasons why you may have not liked a line.

[bosk1]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

That's actually why I find that lyric to be pretty clever and fun.  You do expect him to say "yes," but then it almost momentarily throws you the way James delivers the next line as "The answer's no" and you think maybe he flipped it on you, but then he flips it back with "...surprise, yes, you bet your life."  And "you bet your life" is actually a very apt cliché in that context, but that is what they are doing, metaphorically, as revolutionary rebels. 

[bosk1]

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

No, I get it.  It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor.  You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve.  Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever.  There are certainly lyrics I do not like.  There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album).  But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written. 

[Enigmachine]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

That's actually why I find that lyric to be pretty clever and fun.  You do expect him to say "yes," but then it almost momentarily throws you the way James delivers the next line as "The answer's no" and you think maybe he flipped it on you, but then he flips it back with "...surprise, yes, you bet your life."  And "you bet your life" is actually a very apt cliché in that context, but that is what they are doing, metaphorically, as revolutionary rebels.

That's pretty cool actually. I thought about the "bet your life" double meaning before (and when you know he dies, it becomes quite an emotional line), but the double flip is pretty clever.

[hefdaddy42]

DT has never been a lyrics-oriented band.  But they have certainly had their share of good lyrics.

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

For me personally, the albums that resonate the most are the ones where they seem to concentrate almost as much on the lyric-writing as they do on the music.  For that reason, for me (and I'm only talking about what things I look for and what appeals to me personally), their best lyrics appear on Images & Words, Awake, Falling Into Infinity, Six Degrees, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and DT12, with Awake being the champion.  The worst (for me) are on When Dream & Day Unite and Black Clouds & Silver Linings, which coincidentally (?) are my two least favorite albums overall.

[bosk1]

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

Yeah, that too.  The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters.  I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example.  But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative.  That style calls for a different type of writing. 

[hefdaddy42]

Agreed.

You're so smart.  You should run a fan forum or something.

[bosk1]

Thinkin' about it.  But where would I find the time?

[hefdaddy42]

You're right.  Forget it.

Maybe you should just own a country or something.  That should be easier.

[ariich]

You're right.  Forget it.

Maybe you should just own a country or something.  That should be easier.

Didn't we already give France away?

[bosk1]

I tried, but nobody wanted it.  I still have it somewhere.

[ariich]

It'll be in some cupboard that you forgot even existed. That's where I usually find things I've lost.

[energythief]

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

Yeah, that too.  The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters.  I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example.  But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative.  That style calls for a different type of writing.

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.


That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.

[bosk1]

Sorry you can't seem to find personal enjoyment and/or personal application, but that is your loss.  That isn't a shortcoming of the album.

[erwinrafael]

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

Yeah, that too.  The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters.  I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example.  But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative.  That style calls for a different type of writing.

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.


That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.

That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage. If any of these albums are played with real actors, TA would require the least tweaking.

[Enigmachine]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime

The story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it.

The story is really easy to understand in those two albums though, no real time or work required. All TA does is delve further into the concept with more characters and dialogue.

[Prog Snob]

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

I'm discussing too. Where was I getting so sensitive? I like discussion. All I was doing was providing reasons why you may have not liked a line.

I'm not necessarily speaking about you, just in general. I feel like some people blow things way out of proportion if you say even the smallest iota of negativity about the band.

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

No, I get it.  It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor.  You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve.  Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever.  There are certainly lyrics I do not like.  There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album).  But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written. 

Bosky, Bosky, Bosky. It's just my opinion. I could probably close my eyes and point to a dozen instances where people were literally and blatantly bashing the band. I wasn't even close to that. Like you just said, there have been instances where you have come up with a better alternative to a lyric. That's all I was implying, that I felt it could have been written with a bit more thought, but maybe he was going for the obviousness and cliche.

For me personally, the albums that resonate the most are the ones where they seem to concentrate almost as much on the lyric-writing as they do on the music.  For that reason, for me (and I'm only talking about what things I look for and what appeals to me personally), their best lyrics appear on Images & Words, Awake, Falling Into Infinity, Six Degrees, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and DT12, with Awake being the champion.  The worst (for me) are on When Dream & Day Unite and Black Clouds & Silver Linings, which coincidentally (?) are my two least favorite albums overall.

Agreed. Awake is definitely lyrical ingenuity. There's not a single song on there that doesn't intrigue me lyrically. Images and Words is a close second though.

[Enigmachine]

Agreed. Awake it definitely lyrical ingenuity. There's not a single song on there that doesn't intrigue me lyrically. Images and Words is a close second though.

I'll agree to that, too. Those two albums have some very evocative and creative lyrics.

[TAC]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.

Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?

In fact, the lyrics on The Astonishing are way more thought provoking than Operation Mindcrime. Of course I realize that there is nothing as eloquently written as "Twenty five bucks a f%#k and john's a happy man".


And to compare The Astonishing to The Wall may very well be premature. The Wall is one of music's all time iconic albums. (personallyI don't care for it.)

[Prog Snob]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.

Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?

In fact, the lyrics on The Astonishing are way more thought provoking than Operation Mindcrime. Of course I realize that there is nothing as eloquently written as "Twenty five bucks a f%#k and john's a happy man".

That's my favorite line. 

[hefdaddy42]

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

Yeah, that too.  The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters.  I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example.  But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative.  That style calls for a different type of writing.

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.


That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.

That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage.

This.  Even though the forms seem similar, they aren't the same thing.