The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[genome]

I decided to make a playlist of my favourite ones to weed out the tracks I didn't like (I'm not fussed about story continuity, in fact I don't really pay attention to it) and the ones I left out were The Answer, A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me, Begin Again, Losing Faythe, Whispers on the Wind, Hymn of a Thousand Voices and all the NOMAC tracks apart from the first one.

The rest of the album is great. Quite a change from my initial opinion - this is after about 6 full listens now.

[Lucien]

A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me

 

[Prog Snob]

A Savior in the Square, Act of Faythe, Brother Can You Hear Me

 

That's pretty much my reaction.      A Savior in the Square is one of my favorite tracks. The beginning reminds me me of Another Hand.

[genome]

I like the intro. It's a bit heavy on the cheesy side otherwise, same with BCYHM.

Act of Faythe I was on the fence about, but I'm not really a fan of the way James sings on it, I understand why he does though.

[Prog Snob]

I like the intro. It's a bit heavy on the cheesy side otherwise, same with BCYHM.

Act of Faythe I was on the fence about, but I'm not really a fan of the way James sings on it, I understand why he does though.

The intro to ASITS is really beautiful. Like I said, it reminds me of Another Hand, and it immediately brought back memories of when that was played live.

[rumborak]

Overall, I think it's one of DT's worst albums.  Like, bottom three.  I'd rather listen to When Dream and Day Unite WITH CHARLIE.  I honestly tried to give this a chance, even after my first post about it in the official thread for the album.  But, I'm sorry, the story is just....I don't know what else to say.... ridiculous. 

Edited....

Actually, I have to change my opinion.  I think it IS DT's worst album.  I was thinking SC and Train of Thought were below it, but they're actually not.... for me.  And, I HATE those albums.

For me, the first two listens were *really* bad. Then it picked up a little because I was starting to disregard certain things I didn't like, and maybe even appreciate some. However, over the last week or so it started to sink again. A few good moments on the album here and there, but the weak or grating moments ("how music makes me feel", "facing the unknown", the making-out session of Arabella and Nefaryus, to name just a few) dominate it too much for me to enjoy it. I put it on yesterday at work, and sad to say I turned it off halfway in because it annoyed me. No other DT album has ever done that.

[Dublagent66]

I tried to make a playlist from this album and Joshua said, "The only winning move is not to play". 

[MirrorMask]

For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.

If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?

[ResultsMayVary]

The only songs I skip regularly are the NOMAC tracks and "Brother, Can you Hear Me?" But I imagine that's not a very unpopular opinion here.

That being said, I REALLY like Act II right now (more than Act I by far). I bet that's pretty unpopular.

[snapple]

I don't like it.

[Adami]

I actually like the NOMAC tracks, and wish they were more developed throughout the album. Which is the one with the actual drum beat? Was it Machine Chatter or something? I really dug that.

I know other people have brought up the idea of a war of organic prog rock and pure electronic music, and I think that would have been such a cool thing to add to the album, which would have helped break up what some of us are calling musical monotony.

[TAC]

I have pretty much listened to TA exclusively since its release, and I don't think I've even listened to any of the NOMAC tracks.

[rumborak]

For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.

If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?

I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.

EDIT: And I especially don't like the "I always had the answer" part. It's a reprise of the the track on Act I, but in the context of the story it makes no sense.

[bosk1]

Well, some climaxes are better than others.

[Podaar]

I'll say.

[Prog Snob]

[Enigmachine]

For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.

If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?

I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.

EDIT: And I especially don't like the "I always had the answer" part. It's a reprise of the the track on Act I, but in the context of the story it makes no sense.

But it makes perfect sense... Gabriel ended up being key to uniting GNE and RRM, so he had the 'answer'.

+ I like the ending of LotR. It shows you how life has changed for the characters after it's finished, making it feel like the actions taken previously have actually had an effect.

[pcs90]

The great thing about having "Astonishing" to end the album is whether you like that track or not, you get to choose how to end the album. Want it to end after ONW? Just turn off the album after ONW...there you go! I for one think it ends perfectly as/is, and it does add to the story, but it's an easy fix for those who don't agree.

[erwinrafael]

Our New World is the climax. It was written as such and it was intended as such.

The Astonishing was written as the ending of a musical. Endings of musicals are not meant to be climaxes or to move the plot forward, most are written for the cast of characters to say a final line and for the full ensemble to take a bow to the appreciative audience.

If you do not buy into the musical concept, just remove The Astonishing and The Road to Revolution. Maybe even the Entracte. These are songs that can be appreciated and would make sense only if you buy into the musical format of the work.

[TAC]

The Astonishing was written as the ending of a musical. Endings of musicals are not meant to be climaxes or to move the plot forward, most are written for the cast of characters to say a final line and for the full ensemble to take a bow to the appreciative audience.

Exactly.

[ariich]

For those who don't like the title track and consider it bland... of course the song itself can be disliked, but what I don't really understand is how it's judged and not epic and bombastic enough for a closer. If you think about it, it's structured more or less like Losing Time / Grand Finale: a slow part at the beginning, and then comes the big ending, which is "just" a reprise of the main theme, nothing else added.

If Losing Time is an epic closure to Six Degrees, surely The Astonishing is a worthy closer of the album...?

I obviously can't speak for the others, but for me that track is a bit like the ending of the Lord of the Rings movie. Like, the plot is over, so nothing needs to be said, but it keeps going. Our New World already has the hopeful outlook of an ending. And in fact, "Power down" would have made a *perfect* closer of the album. But then "The Astonishing" comes in, and it's like watching Frodo going back to Hobbiton and chatting with his neighbors. It retroactively diminishes the impact of the previous climax.

I made the exact same LOTR analogy back when it first came out. It's not that the ending is bad in either case, it's that it drags on too long.

[Scorpion]

Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.

[erwinrafael]

Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.

We're not deflecting EVERY criticism with "it's a musical". Problem with pacing? Sure. Melodies are forgettable? No problem. Lack of metal? Fair criticism.

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

[ariich]

Can people please stop deflecting every criticism of TA with "it's a musical"? That's really annoying, people are allowed to dislike things about musicals too. Just because I get the point of doing things in a certain way, doesn't mean that I like it.

We're not deflecting EVERY criticism with "it's a musical". Problem with pacing? Sure. Melodies are forgettable? No problem. Lack of metal? Fair criticism.

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

This! And even then if people say "I get that it's meant to be like a musical, I just don't like it" that's still fair enough.

[arvizu9618]

I don't like it.

[red barchetta]

I listened to it again this morning from beginning to end and I don't think I ever been more bored in my life.  I'd rather stare at a clock for 2+ hours or watch grass grow.  I had to go back and listen to a classic like ACOS to remind myself I'm still a DT fan.

Same here.  Allthough after a dozen of time I have listened carefully to the whole album, and I must say that I have started to enjoyed the first 30 minutes, I could not care less about the whole story of the album.  And the music style is so repetitive.  It's soft soft with way too much ballads and soft piano that reminds me what piano composers are releising here and it's played in all the elevators of the city.  It's boring.  For sure now, I know I will not go see them.  First time ever.

[red barchetta]

And I will add that at times it sounds like Barry Manilow with power chords. 

[rumborak]

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

My unpopular opinion of the day: "How music makes me feel" up to "why I was hiding" is the worst piece of music DT has ever put on disc. MP's roaarr pales in comparison by a long shot.

[Kotowboy]

Oh my fucking god.. i wouldn't expect anything less from metal heads...

" now that DT aren't heavy - it means that Labrie only does his fucking shit mellow vocals which sound awful "

" The Astonishing is bland and boring and there's no metal on it "

Must be nice being a Slayer fan - getting the exact same album every time...

[TheOutlawXanadu]

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.

There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.

Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.

[Sacul]

" The Astonishing is bland and boring and there's no metal on it "

I actually agree with this, I wouldn't mind another metal album, but NOT in the vein of DT12 or BC&SL. And I'm not a Slayer fan by any means

[rumborak]

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.

There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.

Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.

To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.

[Enigmachine]

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.

There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.

Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.

DT always seem to be correcting what some fans find fault with and reducing what others liked, which is one of the inevitabilities of having a large and diverse fanbase. This reminds me of this CDrice post.

The Band: ''So now that you're done listening to the new album, can you give us your first impressions?''

Random fan 1: '' Wait, let me check my notes. The production was pretty average. The drums are way too loud and mechanical, the bass is too buried and the keyboards are too.''

Random fan 2: ''It was too heavy''

Random fan 3: ''It was way too soft''

Random fan 4: ''The lyrics are way too cheesy and James should really stop trying to sing high. It doesn't suit him anymore''

Random fan 5: ''It's too prog''

Random fan 6: ''The artwork sucks!''

Random fan 7: '' Where's the epic? It can't be a Dream Theater album if there's no epic''

Random fan 8: ''Well... it's better than When Dream and Day Unite... I guess''

*One hour of comments later*

The Band: ''So... none of you liked it?''

Everyone: ''WHAT!? CONCEPT ALBUM! PROG FANGASM! BEST ALBUM EVARRR!!!''

The Band: *confused as hell*

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

I guess my unpopular opinion, with regard to those with unpopular opinions (Inception!!!), is that this kind of feedback makes it seem like DT, or any band for that matter, won't ever be able to win.

There have been a number of fans, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you may have been one of them, who have commented in the past that DT were getting a little stagnant with the music they were writing and how their albums were structured (a few medium length songs, a few ballads, and a long song at the end). Now they come out with an album that's all over the place... and there's a new problem: It doesn't have enough structure.

Obviously there are shades of grey between the two extremes, and everyone is going to have their own view on that, but there is a point where I wouldn't fault DT for asking, "What are we supposed to do?" Like, is it really that big a deal that the album is a kind of hybrid between classical performance, conventional DT album, rock opera, and soundtrack? If anything, I personally view that as a positive because it's a very unique approach.

To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.

How exactly is it incoherent? Diversity and a range of influences do not constitute a lack of coherency.

[bosk1]

To explain my stance here, indeed, I felt DT was way too stagnant over the past few years.
And don't get me wrong, I think it's GREAT that DT decided to dare again, and go big. But just because someone tries something, doesn't mean it's automatically good. TA is a hodgepodge of half-baked ideas that don't mesh at all into a coherent thing. And coherence is KEY if you want to do a concept album of this magnitude.

I actually agree with the bolded, and somewhat agree with or at least identify with the rest.  But where I disagree is that, although I get your position, the way you word it comes across as though, from your perspective, the album is a failure.  I don't see it as a "hodgepodge of half-baked ideas," but rather an album of great ideas that could perhaps have been better and more cohesive, which would have put it over the top.  But the fact that it could have been better does not mean it is a failure.  And maybe you more or less agree with that.  I am not necessarily knocking your position, but just stating how it comes across to me.  For the record, it has taken me MANY years to understand and appreciate that your communication style is just very different from mine and that positions and criticisms of yours that come across on the surface as very blunt and harsh are often not meant to be nearly as extreme as they may seem.

[ErHaO]

My main critisicm is, even though Labrie is fantastic here, having more vocalists would've definately made the album as a whole an easier listen. This is why I hope there will eventually be an alternate production, having very distinct voices and singers with a different sense for melody would make certain conversation-type of songs more interesting. It also would give some of the similar ballady parts a more distinctive character.

But if the criticism is basically "why is it structured like a musical?", isn't it fair to answer, "well, because it IS conceived as a musical and written as such."

I think maybe this specific criticism is not so much about musicals, but rather that TA is often neither here nor there in terms of style. Sometimes it's a musical, sometimes a regular DT album (e.g. for TGOM and MOB). Sometimes it's a classical performance with overtures and entr'actes, sometimes it feels like a soundtrack.

To be fair quite a lot of musicals/rock operas feature at least a few "hit" songs that are structured like regular songs and work outside of the context of an album. While not a general rule, I really don't think having those different type of tracks are out of the ordinary for works like these.