Identity, Soul/Grrove & Technical abillities...Mangini o Portnoy

[alexofsweden]

Ok guys, i know this has been discussed many many times...but i´m really curious what you guys really think.
We now have 3 albums feautering Mangini, so he had 3 times to show us his drumming.

What i want you to vote for, are wich drummer do you think is the best when it comes down to:

Identity
Soul/groove
Technical abilities

I´d give "Technical abilities" to Mangini, but for me Portnoy is waaaay superiour when it comes to "Identity & Soul/groove"

[erwinrafael]

Oh my, this again.

[BlobVanDam]

Ok guys, i know this has been discussed many many times...

I wish you'd stopped there.

[lovethedrake]

I am not a drummer and I like Mangini.  However, Portnoy played on I&W, SFAM, SDOIT, and Awake... so the answer is Portnoy.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Imo mangini wins all those categories. But please, no more

[alexofsweden]

Ok. i´ll erase this thread then 

[Rodni Demental]

For anyone who wishes to continue this discussion, please join us in the comment section of every DT video ever on youtube. 

[KevShmev]

I think Mangini wins when it comes to technicality and groove, but Portnoy wins when it comes to identity.  Plus, as a professional air drummer , Portnoy's style is more fun to air drum along to, obviously because he is much more fill-happy than Mangini.  Mangini is almost too good to the point where his playing comes off as less fun than Portnoy's.

[Dream Team]

MP by a long shot.

[bosk1]

Actually, it is good to have this discussion confined to a thread dedicated to that purpose, and where the first post is actually making a good attempt to lay down some pretty fair criteria.  I have no problem with this thread.

That said, this is tough for me.  I mean, Mangini wins on technical ability, as Mike Portnoy would even concede.  But when rating drummers this skilled, it almost becomes pointless to me.  I really cannot say where I would put them.  They are both fantastic in so many areas.  However:

I think Mangini wins when it comes to technicality and groove, but Portnoy wins when it comes to identity.  Plus, as a professional air drummer , Portnoy's style is more fun to air drum along to, obviously because he is much more fill-happy than Mangini.  Mangini is almost too good to the point where his playing comes off as less fun than Portnoy's.

Not sure I COMPLETELY agree, but it is reasonably close to how I feel when I really think about it.

[PixelDream]

It's pretty simple for me. Mike Portnoy's drumming fuels the music, is part of the musical composition. Mike Mangini in DT is merely 'supporting' the music, albeit in a very technical, tight way. When it comes to groove, I know MM can groove like mad, but for some reason MP is the only drummer that brought some GROOVE to Dream Theater. You can definitely tell that MP is a hiphop fan.

[pcs90]

Easily Mangini. No question for me. I prefer musical drumming rather than fills every 5 seconds, and this is coming from a drummer. Mangini is more tasteful yet at the same time often busier than Portnoy, but because of how he orchestrates his parts you don't notice. I love that, you can keep discovering little things that he does. With Portnoy, if you've heard his parts, you already know how every song will sound because he does the same things all the time. In fact, on his DVD's he even admits that a lot of his fills are just variations on the same pattern (rlkkrlkkrlkk etc). I think, because Portnoy is so predictable, his playing is more flashy, and his personality on stage sticks out more, he is more memorable to most people.

Now, I certainly can't avoid giving credit to Portnoy as on earlier albums he has come up with many great drum parts. After SDOIT these largely disappeared (not that the newer ones are bad, but they're just uninspired for the most part).

[Siddhartha]

Portnoy.

[Bertie_Wooster]

I vote Mangini because he can play Mike's parts live better than Portnoy.    He killed it on "finally free " in boston.
I also like the stuff he does like the wild drum parts in outcry and Illumination theory.   I think JP feels more free to write what he wants
nowthat Portnoy is gone.   I do miss the cool cymbal work he did in songs like "lifting shadows" and how he kept us informed about the
band.    I am glad we have a drummer now who only wants to be in ONE band.   I don't care what anybody says Portnoy wanted that
avenged sevenfold job and he was making the rest of the band have to worry about that.   I like that Mangini doesn't spit on the equipment or
make crass remarks like Portnoy did.    The drummer for ACDC could be in DT and as long as they have JP and JR with Labrie I would be happy.

[TioJorge]

I really hope that one day we can put this silliness behind us and focus on what is really important.




Their asses.


To me, Portnoy has that badonkadonk. Just a downright spankable booty. But Mangini...mmm Mangini has that cute 'lil toosh that's just too adorable. So to answer your question, I think that I'd rather go to prom with Portnoy.

(ksrsly I voted Portnoy just because he has countless more showings of what he can do and subsequently a lot more variety; ask the question again when Mangini has been on two or three more DT albums if they're still kickin' it by then...TA is also a very singular album and I suspect it'll stay that way even in comparison to future albums; not to say that it doesn't count but the style doesn't exactly call for the drummer to be going wild in any sense)

[BlobVanDam]

I don't buy into this "MP is too flashy all of the time, MM complements the rest of the band so he's too subtle for you to get that he's better" thing at all. There are obviously differences in style, but imo they're not nearly as different in approach as people say.

I voted Portnoy, because I felt he did a better job of contrasting the style of the rest of the band, and making complex music accessible and rockin', and a lot of his drum work is underrated for how much thought and complexity went into it, especially on SFAM/SDOIT. MM's playing falls flat for me on ADTOE and most of DT12, and his approach feels more mathical than musical. I really like his work on TA though, but it also reminds me more of Portnoy's style, so maybe that's why.
I have nothing against Mangini at all, but as long as we keep comparing the two, I still prefer Portnoy's playing.

And I even managed to avoid the fanboy trigger words.

I vote Mangini because he can play Mike's parts live better than Portnoy.    He killed it on "finally free " in boston.

Imo that's the worst example of where MM doesn't live up to the original. That outro on BTFW doesn't even compare.

[Madman Shepherd]

I absolutely hate the whole feel/groove vs. technical ability arguments.  I've said it before but:

Mike Mangini is not a more technical drummer than Mike Portnoy.  Am I serious?  Yes.  MP has done some intensely fascinating stuff and just because he doesn't use a lot of music terminology doesn't mean that what he plays isn't technical. 

On that same token....

Mike Portnoy does not have more feel than Mike Mangini.  This argument always comes down to people saying Mangini is mechanical which is a very passive aggressive way of saying, "Why don't they just get a drum machine?"  MM has plenty of feel.  But so does MP. 

I think it is hard to argue that Mangini doesn't know more about certain techniques.  He was a professor afterall. 

But MM has a ton of technical ability AND feel.  MP has a ton of technical ability AND feel. 

The only thing that one has a bit of a monopoly on is MM having more technical knowledge but MP sort of makes up the gap by his passion for various styles and his wicked ability to pick up on things fast.

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't buy into this "MP is too flashy all of the time, MM complements the rest of the band so he's too subtle for you to get that he's better" thing at all. There are obviously differences in style, but imo they're not nearly as different in approach as people say.

I don't buy it either. MM can play stuff that MP couldn't play (extreme polyrhythms and complex irrational rhythms), but the fact is he almost never plays that kind of stuff with DT. Most of his patterns are simplier that MP's, and I've yet to find one of these "so technical parts" or "so subtle you can't hear why he's better" parts. Someone said that drumming of Three days was a good example of his playing, but there is nothing complex or subtle whatsoever in the song. The only "technical" part is the end, and it's mainly just fast. The rest is basic old school prog-metal playing (accents falling where you expect them to fall, regular hi-hat patterns, a little double-bass once in a while, fills rhythmically doubling the guitar parts (which I don't like, differences in rhythm has generally more punch, and the point of a fill is often to give punch)) - with, indeed, many similarities with MP's playing. The lack of imagination in MM's parts is striking, and makes me think that he's not the one actually writing his parts (he just adds a layer once in a while).

I'm starting to believe that it's actually JP and JR who ask him to keep it simple, or even basic, because they believe it "complements the rest of the band" or want more space for them (maybe they thought MP was taking too much in the band as a general rule). While it's their choice at the end of the day, I don't think that interesting at all : working on dynamics, accents, colors and metric structure, complement the rest of the music much better than playing any simple pattern. You can be a discret drummer while ading a lot with textures and subtilities, and don't have to relay on basic patterns to "not be flashy".

I'm still willing to catch some of these examples of MM greatness in DT, because it seems that people who love MM only talk about general aspects of his playing , and barely about any parts or moments of songs (same goes for whose who prefer MP), which makes everything very theoretical.

[kirksnosehair]

Well it's been 3 albums now with Mike Mangini on drums and as much as it bugs me to admit this, I miss Portnoy's drumming style in Dream Theater's music.  Mangini's kit sounds way over-processed and kind of mechanical/fake whereas I always thought the drums were far too prominent in the mix with Portnoy, but they sounded so much more organic (Images & Words being the lone exception to that)


This is not a slam on Mangini who is clearly a technically gifted musician and percussionist. 

[erwinrafael]

When I read somebody comment that MM's playing is simpler compared to Portnoy's, all I can think is this person has not tried to play the drum parts.

[palmeiras]

Portnoy is a great human drummer but mangini is a inhuman alien  drummer. Mangini is much much better

[The Presence of Frenemies]

There are definitely moments when I want to say Mangini--take TSF on BTFW, which completely blows the original out of the water. But the drumming on ADTOE/DT12 is pretty lackluster (partially due to production, but still). TA is much better and roughly the same quality as most of the MP performances, but if MM's 1-for-3 on equaling MP, I think MP becomes the clear choice. Live I think they're about equal--there are times (like TSF) when Mangini easily eclipses Portnoy, but then there are others when he doesn't measure up. So I'd say MP, though MM is not far behind and trending upward.

[Train of Naught]

Portnoy is a great human drummer but mangini is a inhuman alien  drummer. Mangini is much much better

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well maybe I could've, but this way it's more fun.

[Kilgore Trout]

When I read somebody comment that MM's playing is simpler compared to Portnoy's, all I can think is this person has not tried to play the drum parts.

This is irrelevant : a part can be difficult to play and yet musically simpler than another part. Musical complexity has little to do with difficulty to play.

Then again, I would like to hear some MM parts in DT that are really difficult to play.

[DragonGuitar]

Mangini: technicality
Portnoy: Identity / Groove

I vote Portnoy, but both are excellent.

[Stadler]

Portnoy is a great human drummer but mangini is a inhuman alien  drummer. Mangini is much much better

Only if you are looking for an inhuman alien drummer.  I, unfortunately for the extra terrestrial, am not.

I've said this before, but here in the thread I'll say again:  I couldn't give a rat's ass about whether something is 32nd notes or 64th notes.   I really couldn't.   So the pure technical virtuosity of Mangini is lost on me.  I like players that have a technique that services the (musical) point they are trying to make (Peart; Collins; Bonham; Bruford).  And for me, in music, I like rhythm.  I like melody.  I like how a group of individuals playing their instruments together can create something intangible.  Something that elevates. 

I can honestly say, I have never experienced that with Mangini.  It always seems like what he's playing is not in synch with that which is going on around it.  Counter point is Portnoy; he just has a knack for playing the right part at the right time.  I'm thinking of "The Storm" by Flying Colors; during the chorus, his drums "crash" (the "storm"; get it?) and then when the lyric goes "And all our pain will be washes away", he plays a relatively straight-forward four beat and he single-handedly creates the overwhelming impression of movement (the "washing away"; get it?).  Fucking brilliant.  I would take that one moment by Portnoy over everything on all three albums with Mangini.

I'm listening to TA this weekend and while I'm really digging it generally ("A Savior In The Square" and "When Your Time Has Come" are standing out right now) there are more than a dozen moments where the music is conveying one mood or emotion, then there's this spastic double bass drum flurry that sounds jarring.  Yeah, technically awesome.  Yeah, I couldn't do it at quarter speed with help from a friend, but it just seems so... rote.

The best drummers - my top three are Peart, Collins and Portnoy - play in 19/17, and make it sound like 4/4.   Mangini plays in 19/17, and it always seems to sound like... 19/17.   I point to the 6:00 intro on Luna Park for this.     

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Portnoy is a great human drummer but mangini is a inhuman alien  drummer. Mangini is much much better

The best drummers - my top three are Peart, Collins and Portnoy - play in 19/17, and make it sound like 4/4.   Mangini plays in 19/17, and it always seems to sound like... 19/17.   I point to the 6:00 intro on Luna Park for this.   

You see Mangini is an alien and can play in 19/17 but sadly Peart, Collins, Portnoy and any other of the human kind can't do that because the human intelligence aren't capable of understanding 19/17 yet therefor in our ears 19/17 automatically converts to 4/4.

[kaos2900]

Both are amazing drummers and two of the best around. If I had to pick I'd still pick Portnoy. His cymbal work and the way turns the drums into a true instrument that adds another layer to the music is why is in my opinion the best overall drummer. Not taking anything away from Mangini who is technically superior but has less substance.

[nikatapi]

Very different drummers, i would't dare to compare them.
In terms of sound and especially hihat tightness, i love MP, and MM was never able to replicate some of his intricate parts even when the notes are the same.

On the other hand, i like how MM plays a little behind of the groove, how he melodically follows what is going on around him, and his ability to play the drums in a "stereophonic" way, especially with some ride patterns which are awesome and give a very nice dynamic.

I think MM needs to step up his game in terms of how his kit is sounding, if we got a more organic sound, with louder cymbals it would be a better comparison.

[kirksnosehair]

Very different drummers, i would't dare to compare them.
In terms of sound and especially hihat tightness, i love MP, and MM was never able to replicate some of his intricate parts even when the notes are the same.

On the other hand, i like how MM plays a little behind of the groove, how he melodically follows what is going on around him, and his ability to play the drums in a "stereophonic" way, especially with some ride patterns which are awesome and give a very nice dynamic.

I think MM needs to step up his game in terms of how his kit is sounding, if we got a more organic sound, with louder cymbals it would be a better comparison.

It would be interesting to know how much influence Mangini has on how the drums actually sound on the finished mixes?

[7StringedBeast]

After three albums with Mangini I have to say I'm extremely disappointed in what he brings to DT.  He plays the old songs just fine, but everything new is boring to me.  I feel like he just doesn't play with the same soul Portnoy does.  It's like Mangini is so good that he over thinks everything and it all becomes math and numbers to him instead of about music. 

I still think Portnoy is one of the most musical drummers I've ever heard.  And this is all coming from someone who was real sick of his musical direction around the time he left.  I think he just fits into a band better than Mangini does.

[pcs90]

I like players that have a technique that services the (musical) point they are trying to make (Peart; Collins; Bonham; Bruford).  And for me, in music, I like rhythm.  I like melody.  I like how a group of individuals playing their instruments together can create something intangible.  Something that elevates.

See, this right here is why I love MM.
Each person is going to interpret a drummer's playing differently, I guess. For me there's no comparison and it's not because Mangini can play faster. And for many people it's the total opposite, and we can use the exact same reasons to justify why we prefer one over the other (for example, I find MM hands down more musical and melodic than MP any day).

[phospheneSOI]

This question is like "hey - do you prefer this awesome thing or this awesome thing" and I'm all like "rehhh why do I have to choose!?"