*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Darkstarshades]

They should've stopped Star Wars after the original. Why mess with perfection?

We're not talking about a whole album here again, exploiting it would be making more albums here, which isn't necessary, but I don't see why would an EP with maybe an epic be out of place. We don't call the shots, but I bet on something like that.

[Prog Snob]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

[Darkstarshades]

Oh well never mind.
Either way, next album will be very different, maybe a less serious work? I'd love to see a new DT song made for total fun, just messing around, like Enigma Machine.

[BanksD]

Next album is gonna mess people up, I've got a good feeling.

[TAC]

Next album is gonna mess people up, I've got a good feeling.

Every album of theirs messes people up!

[hefdaddy42]

I'm gonna get messed up tonight just thinking about it.

[avishwanath28]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

Honestly, a novel would be pretty bad if it were following the storyline of the album. I like the plot of the story insofar as it connects to the music, but if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times. If anything, I'd want SFAM to be turned into a novel (not that I do, to be clear).

[bosk1]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

Honestly, a novel would be pretty bad if it were following the storyline of the album. I like the plot of the story insofar as it connects to the music, but if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times. If anything, I'd want SFAM to be turned into a novel (not that I do, to be clear).

I see where you are coming from.  But I wouldn't say "if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times."  Not that there isn't some truth to that, but I think that misses the point.  You could say the same thing about a lot of grade-A musicals.  The point is, the story is meant to be portrayed in a particular format or medium, and it works well within that medium (a prog metal rock opera).  The story-telling medium is an important and integral part of the context in which the story is told.  Taking the story out of that medium is to remove a lot of context. 

[Prog Snob]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

Honestly, a novel would be pretty bad if it were following the storyline of the album. I like the plot of the story insofar as it connects to the music, but if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times. If anything, I'd want SFAM to be turned into a novel (not that I do, to be clear).

I don't agree. While it's not the greatest plot, I can name many books where the plot was terrible and unoriginal, so I don''t see JP's story being any worse than those. However, the main point I'm trying to get at here is that the whole story isn't just about saving music. There's a lot going on throughout the story. It's about love, loss, hope, redemption, and so on. I see it as a touching story where, in the end, it's more than just music that was saved; it was people's freedom.

[cramx3]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

Honestly, a novel would be pretty bad if it were following the storyline of the album. I like the plot of the story insofar as it connects to the music, but if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times. If anything, I'd want SFAM to be turned into a novel (not that I do, to be clear).

I don't agree. While it's not the greatest plot, I can name many books where the plot was terrible and unoriginal, so I don''t see JP's story being any worse than those. However, the main point I'm trying to get at here is that the whole story isn't just about saving music. There's a lot going on throughout the story. It's about love, loss, hope, redemption, and so on. I see it as a touching story where, in the end, it's more than just music that was saved; it was people's freedom.

I would imagine if they took this exact story and made a novel, it wouldn't be the exact same.  There would be more intricacies and details that it's totally possibly to make the plot better and more interesting.  It's also possible for it to be worse.  But I'm not sure how one could so easily say a novel on this story would automatically be bad. 

The story itself is truly nothing new either.  It's got the same plot lines as many other stories/movies just spun into a futuristic feudal time without music.

[Randaran]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

Agreed. What would even be the point of extending the story? If anything, didn't JP say he might turn it into a novel?

Honestly, a novel would be pretty bad if it were following the storyline of the album. I like the plot of the story insofar as it connects to the music, but if you remove the music, it has to be one of the more cheesy and lame stories of modern times. If anything, I'd want SFAM to be turned into a novel (not that I do, to be clear).

I disagree; the story of the Astonishing has more potential to work as a novel than that of SFaM. Unlike Scenes, The Astonishing has actual characters with personality traits, ambitions, flaws, and backstories. Some of them have to make difficult choices, and the story is progressed by the characters' agencies. Though still simple, and by no means a masterpiece, the characters and story can stand on their own when the music is removed, and there is a lot more to work with for a novel adaptation. This doesn't even include the elements of the setting, such as most of the map and the NOMACs, that were ignored in the album's narrative. In the absence of music, I cannot imagine Scene's story working on any level.

[Mosh]

I enjoyed the album, the story wasn't bad but it was a bit contrived and I have no interest in reading a novel about it (or even seeing a movie). It worked well as a theme for a concept album/musical but nothing more.

[NoseofNicko]

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/dream_theater/the_astonishing/

Most underrated album ever.

[BlobVanDam]

Looks about right to me.

[Darkstarshades]

Meh, you can't please fanbases. They hated this for not being ballsie enough yet they also hated ToT for being too much.
I can't understand how can someone call this a shortage of inspiration, true, it might not be your cup of tea, but generic? Lazily written? Where?

[Adami]

Meh, you can't please fanbases. They hated this for not being ballsie enough yet they also hated ToT for being too much.
I can't understand how can someone call this a shortage of inspiration, true, it might not be your cup of tea, but generic? Lazily written? Where?

I like the album, minus the lyrics, but I can see their point of view. After a while, unless you really know the songs well, they blur together. I've listened to the album multiple times, and still can't distinguish most of the songs from each other. They tend to share a lot of rhythms, styles and especially endings. There's like 2-4 endings that tons of the songs use.

Do I feel it's generic or lazily written? Not at all, but unless you really force yourself to listen to it a lot and really get into it, it can sound a bit like 2 hours of the same song.

[erwinrafael]

https://scontent.fmnl4-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/13627135_10153855846912989_8021508506039335478_n.jpg?oh=d12f7957ab417c25a57fea6be0cfd7a0&oe=5832F4D7

Is it really that hard for Myung to crack a smile? 

[Prog Snob]

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/dream_theater/the_astonishing/

Most underrated album ever.

I wouldn't say it's the most underrated album ever, but it definitely deserves better than that score.

[KevShmev]

Given its length, I suspect a lot of people gave it one or two listens, decided they didn't like it, and then gave it a poor score.  Plus, Rate Your Music is a sight where your average hipster goes to first to rank stuff, so you have to take that into consideration as well.  DT albums as a whole do not fair well.  Their Big Four have rankings of:

I&W 3.73
Awake 3.66
Scenes 3.74
6DOIT 3.54

So yeah, RYM is not the place to go to if you want to see DT albums rated well.

At Prog Archives, The Astonishing does have a 3.58 ranking, which is still too low, IMO, but still more fair.   That makes it tied for the 7th best score among DT records (Train of Thought also has a 3.58).

[Prog Snob]

I generally use Prog Archives for checking reviews since people on that site are more likely to appreciate the music better than, say, someone whose musical taste doesn't go beyond the bounds of Top 40 radio.

[KevShmev]

Prog Archives is a useful guide, but the way people rate albums is terrible.  Albums often get rated based on how proggy they are, with far less regard to quality - see: Thick as a Brick always being their number 1 or 2 album of all time (BECAUSE, OMG, IT'S AN ALBUM FEATURING ONLY A 40-MINUTE PLUS SONG!!!) - plus collaborators reviews count for twice as much as anybody else's, so all it takes is a few collaborators to not like a band, and it becomes difficult for that band to get too high of a ranking since they will go in and trash all of their albums and give them low scores.  Like I said, that site is a useful guide, but their rating system is deeply flawed.  Granted, there is no perfect system.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

If all of the comments and reviews for The Astonishing on Rate Your Music were thoughtful and well-written, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss its low score, but considering almost every comment and review is something along the lines of...

"This band is the worst!"

"This is really uninspired!"

"[Band member] sounds like a [insulting noun]!"

... I have a hard time putting much stock into RYM's opinion. You also have to consider that, at least as far as I can tell, RYM is a place where people like to rate as much music as possible, so an album that demands two hours of one's time and multiple listens isn't going to do particularly well, in general.

[Prog Snob]

Prog Archives is a useful guide, but the way people rate albums is terrible.  Albums often get rated based on how proggy they are, with far less regard to quality - see: Thick as a Brick always being their number 1 or 2 album of all time (BECAUSE, OMG, IT'S AN ALBUM FEATURING ONLY A 40-MINUTE PLUS SONG!!!) - plus collaborators reviews count for twice as much as anybody else's, so all it takes is a few collaborators to not like a band, and it becomes difficult for that band to get too high of a ranking since they will go in and trash all of their albums and give them low scores.  Like I said, that site is a useful guide, but their rating system is deeply flawed.  Granted, there is no perfect system.

I usually read the reviews themselves, and yes, sort out the ones that seem sensationalized. I know exactly what you're saying. You can tell just by reading the reviews whether or not someone is giving a legitimate and unbiased review or just exhibiting favoritism for the bands they like. For the purpose of looking up prog releases, especially the more obscure artists, it's the best site out there.

[Darkstarshades]

There are no worst comments than those of DT's FB posts aimed at their mexican fanbase.

[rumborak]

Given its length, I suspect a lot of people gave it one or two listens, decided they didn't like it, and then gave it a poor score.  Plus, Rate Your Music is a sight where your average hipster goes to first to rank stuff, so you have to take that into consideration as well.  DT albums as a whole do not fair well.  Their Big Four have rankings of:

I&W 3.73
Awake 3.66
Scenes 3.74
6DOIT 3.54

So yeah, RYM is not the place to go to if you want to see DT albums rated well.

Just because DT overall ranks lower on RYM as compared to other bands, has no bearing on the internal ranking between DT albums on that site. Like it or not, the same people who (like on every other place) ranked I&W, Awake, Scenes and 6DOIT as the top albums, thus establishing that they listened to the albums, however gave TA a horrendous rating.

I find there's a lot of acrobatics going on in this place to make it look as if TA was better received than it was.

[cramx3]

I find there's a lot of acrobatics going on in this place to make it look as if TA was better received than it was.

Well this is a fan site and we are more likely to see positivity here.

Regardless, I believe the truth to this is in the concert attendance #s.  Does DT do another tour of Europe and US only playing TA?  I think that will be telling as well.

I do think this album will be better reviewed in the years to come personally.  Some albums grow stale, but this one was and still is a grower.  I think I initially had it near the bottom of my album rankings (although still considering it to be very good) but I think it's been slowly moving on up and may be in the upper half now.

[NoseofNicko]

Gave it a listen for the first time in a couple of months. Still a great experience.

[KevShmev]

I find there's a lot of acrobatics going on in this place to make it look as if TA was better received than it was.

Not by me. I was pretty vocal in the thread about TA's second leg that they should maybe do a body of work set list because of how well TA hasn't been received, so I am well aware that as a whole it isn't that well liked, at least online.  I am just saying, with RYM, that is a site populated more by certain kinds of fans (see: that album by Neutral Milk Hotel being in their all-time top 25 ), so bands like DT generally aren't going to get high praise there.

[Darkstarshades]

I didn't hear/see a single person qqing about TA at today's show which was almost sold out.

We all sang our asses and I saw plenty of tears around, including mine. Seriously, what a crowd.
Also, we sang Happy Birthday to JP.
The crowd interaction was great and even JM moved alot around stage.
So not well received my ass, it is totally up there. And thank god they played it.

[KevShmev]

I didn't hear/see a single person qqing about TA at today's show which was almost sold out.

We all sang our asses and I saw plenty of tears around, including mine. Seriously, what a crowd.
Also, we sang Happy Birthday to JP.
The crowd interaction was great and even JM moved alot around stage.
So not well received my ass, it is totally up there. And thank god they played it.

Good to hear.

[ytsejam58]

I know mine is an unpopular opinion but I was just astoundingly disappointed with this release. It's riddled with sloppy lyrics, unimaginative musicianship, (Except for a few amazing moments of progness) and there is even a few sloppy editing slip ups I heard. The very end of a Tempting Offer around 3:38. Read the lyrics and just hear how messed up that sounds. It's unexcusable and no other DT album would have allowed that sort of slip up to occur. Portnoy was half of the production team. Now it's all Petrucci and I feel it's Petrucci's fault for how this album sounded. It was all his idea, his lyrics, his music, all his. This should have been john Petrucci's The Astonishing.
I'm just confused when people call this a masterpiece. It doesn't match up to other epics of it's kind, it doesn't match up to DT's history of prog epis, it doesn't even compare to Prog epics that exist in the 2010's. It just falls so short of its goal that it doesn't even deserve its title. It was so hyped to be the epic to break all epics and it wasn't! By the time I get to Act of Faythe I just started crying by how boring the music And lyrics were. Petrucci put the story first above everything, and if the listener won't care about the story, then the music suffers for it. When music is first like let's say any other Dream Theater album, the lyrics could be Meh but it still had the music to fall on. Not in this album. It's just so broken. This is the Sonic Boom/ Phantom Menace of Dream Theater albums. Sorry guys.
I am a huge DT/Prog/Music fan which is why I feel so strongly about my hatred for this album.

[Darkstarshades]

I know mine is an unpopular opinion but I was just astoundingly disappointed with this release. It's riddled with sloppy lyrics, unimaginative musicianship, (Except for a few amazing moments of progness) and there is even a few sloppy editing slip ups I heard. The very end of a Tempting Offer around 3:38. Read the lyrics and just hear how messed up that sounds. It's unexcusable and no other DT album would have allowed that sort of slip up to occur. Portnoy was half of the production team. Now it's all Petrucci and I feel it's Petrucci's fault for how this album sounded. It was all his idea, his lyrics, his music, all his. This should have been john Petrucci's The Astonishing.
I'm just confused when people call this a masterpiece. It doesn't match up to other epics of it's kind, it doesn't match up to DT's history of prog epis, it doesn't even compare to Prog epics that exist in the 2010's. It just falls so short of its goal that it doesn't even deserve its title. It was so hyped to be the epic to break all epics and it wasn't! By the time I get to Act of Faythe I just started crying by how boring the music And lyrics were. Petrucci put the story first above everything, and if the listener won't care about the story, then the music suffers for it. When music is first like let's say any other Dream Theater album, the lyrics could be Meh but it still had the music to fall on. Not in this album. It's just so broken. This is the Sonic Boom/ Phantom Menace of Dream Theater albums. Sorry guys.
I am a huge DT/Prog/Music fan which is why I feel so strongly about my hatred for this album.

I suspect you didn't like it.
Seriously, my only issue with you is that as much as I hate something, I wouldn't go as far as to compare it to Sonic Boom, please man, have a little sense...

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I know mine is an unpopular opinion but I was just astoundingly disappointed with this release. It's riddled with sloppy lyrics, unimaginative musicianship, (Except for a few amazing moments of progness) and there is even a few sloppy editing slip ups I heard. The very end of a Tempting Offer around 3:38. Read the lyrics and just hear how messed up that sounds. It's unexcusable and no other DT album would have allowed that sort of slip up to occur. Portnoy was half of the production team. Now it's all Petrucci and I feel it's Petrucci's fault for how this album sounded. It was all his idea, his lyrics, his music, all his. This should have been john Petrucci's The Astonishing.
I'm just confused when people call this a masterpiece. It doesn't match up to other epics of it's kind, it doesn't match up to DT's history of prog epis, it doesn't even compare to Prog epics that exist in the 2010's. It just falls so short of its goal that it doesn't even deserve its title. It was so hyped to be the epic to break all epics and it wasn't! By the time I get to Act of Faythe I just started crying by how boring the music And lyrics were. Petrucci put the story first above everything, and if the listener won't care about the story, then the music suffers for it. When music is first like let's say any other Dream Theater album, the lyrics could be Meh but it still had the music to fall on. Not in this album. It's just so broken. This is the Sonic Boom/ Phantom Menace of Dream Theater albums. Sorry guys.
I am a huge DT/Prog/Music fan which is why I feel so strongly about my hatred for this album.

You don't have to be sorry. It's nice to have differing opinions, but I don't think you get what the album is at all.

It was never meant to be the prog epic to end prog epics (and I don't really know what a 2010-prog epic really is  ). The Astonishing basically a musical, and if you aren't in that headspace you aren't probably gonna enjoy it. Yeah, the lyrics can be kinda silly at times, but Dream Theater has been writing less-than-stellar lyrics for over a decade now, and that hasn't made the band's music less enjoyable (LET ME INTRODUCEEEE MY BROTHA! A BITTER GENTLEMAN, HISTORIAN! Never Enough?).

You kinda blame John Petrucci for your hatred of the album, and that's silly. Even though the concept was originally JP's, this is as much a Dream Theater album as A Dramatic Turn of Events was (which is commonly regarded as one of DT's best post-2005 albums). JP and JR got credited fully as the writers for the first time, but that doesn't mean the writing/recording dynamic was different than what we had in, for example, Dream Theater. Some people (me included) consider this a masterpiece because of what it represents as a musical evolution of the band, and the effort of creating something so ambitious that got away so much from the traditional DT sound without losing its edge. For the first time ever, DT chose melody over technicality and overblown progressiveness, and that's something that I will always cherish. This album is basically full of beautiful themes that get stuck in my head for days, which is something I enjoy a lot in music. I'd rather have an incredible and memorable theme or melody over an overblown Dance of Eternity-15/16 time signature bonanza, but that's just me. I'm a more theme-oriented guy, which is probably why I liked this album so much.

Once again, you don't have to like it. It's nice to discuss differing opinions, but you calling it utter garbage and hoping some people will agree with you isn't gonna take you anywhere lol.

[Lynxo]

While I wouldn't phrase it quite that harshly, I kinda agree. For me, there's nothing interesting about the story and the lyrics kind of destroy the mood for me at times. (MY MUUUUSIC PLAAAAYAAA.) Yeah, I know this is a common DT problem but I've felt that way about previous songs too, like for example The Count of Tuscany. The big difference for me is that the entire album is filled with moments like that.

And if we're talking about the music, then I would still call it quite unimaginative and frankly boring. Yeah, it is certainly well written and performed but it lacks character and expression. To me, it feels like a lesser band trying to sound like Dream Theater.

So yeah, I get that my opinion is, at least on this forum, is an unpopular one. But after listening to it for several months and seeing the album performed in its entirety, I've come to this conclusion. Sadly, it's the first DT album I've been disappointed in.

[Enigmachine]

The very end of a Tempting Offer around 3:38. Read the lyrics and just hear how messed up that sounds. It's unexcusable and no other DT album would have allowed that sort of slip up to occur.

Except SFaM (in Fatal Tragedy).