*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[mikeyd23]

I bet Chosen was nice live, but it's one of the songs I usually skip. It will be interesting to see how this album will be represented on future tours. Will two smaller pieces be paired like War/Test? There are plenty of standalone songs, Gift Of Music, Ravenskill, Chosen, Our New World..

Honestly, before I saw the song live, it hadn't really clicked, I skipped it a lot as well. But it was just one of those songs that translated really well live and now I find myself skipping it less, for sure.

Also, I could definitely see them doing ASITS/WYTHC together in the future.

[hefdaddy42]

I think that "Chosen" should definitely be played again on future tours. A really fun song on the album, but perfect for a live setting.

That is a fantastic song.

Also, The Path That Divides.

[mikeyd23]

I'd say the obvious choices to play in the future would be The Gift of Music, Moment of Betrayal, and Our New World. Although, I could easily see several others the band really enjoys playing sneaking into future set lists.

[bosk1]

After taking a two months break to listen to some other GREAT albums released this year, plus a couple of discog dives, I've spun The Astonishing last night and again tonight.

This album is an amazing journey. And again, bravo James!

Interesting.  I am in almost exactly the same spot, except that my break from the album wasn't quite two months.  But otherwise, yeah, exactly that.  I can't say I am tired of the album at all, but there has just been other new stuff to check out that I was listening to a lot more.  And then I recently came back to this one and feel the same way you do about it.

I think that "Chosen" should definitely be played again on future tours. A really fun song on the album, but perfect for a live setting.

Yeah, it's a great song.  The problem I think they often run into with their "ballads" is that there is only so much room in a set to slow things down and play ballady-type songs, so it is not easy to work in many of the older ones unless the band or fanbase feels that there is truly something "special" about them.  I fear that Chosen may likely fall by the wayside in the future because of that. 

It will be interesting to see how this album will be represented on future tours. Will two smaller pieces be paired like War/Test? There are plenty of standalone songs, Gift Of Music, Ravenskill, Chosen, Our New World..

I think that if they do more of a "traditional" set later in the tour that features a healthy dose of this album with some other DT songs mixed in, it is likely they will choose a collection of songs that is similar to what was on the advance press sampler.  I've posted that track listing, but just so you guys don't have to search for it, I think it was:
-Descent of the NOMACS
-Dytopian Overture
-The Gift of Music
-Lord Nafaryus
-A Savior In the Square/When Your Time Has Come
-Chosen
-Moment of Betrayal
-The Path That Divides
-Our New World

I could easily see them doing those songs as part of their set later on this tour, either with groups of songs sprinkled throughout the set or all together as a "suite."  I might also bet that The Astonishing would likely be added and done at the end of the set as a closer (and maybe they take out The Path That Divides if they need space). 

As far as future tours, who knows?  This band is so hard to predict in terms of what they play because, historically, if you look at their set lists over time, they play pretty much EVERYTHING.  There isn't really a pattern of them choosing certain favorites over and over and ignoring deep cuts (other than limiting ballad time).  Our New World seems very likely to make repeat appearances.  But I think a LOT of the album could easily show up over the years, especially since the songs are so (relatively) short and, therefore, easy to work into a set list.

[TAC]

I think I had suggested a while back that the Sampler could likely be second set of a show.

[bosk1]

Yes, you most definitely did.  And I agree--IF they are still doing an "evening with" format where they have a second set.  But even if they do a more "standard" type of show where they have an opener and do about a two hour set, it could easily work either as a "suite" or with groups of those songs sprinkled throughout, don't you think?

And while I could be dead wrong, I think that after doing "evening with" shows on the last tour, and this run of VERY difficult "evening with" shows playing The Astonishing (especially difficult for James), it seems likely to me that they would retire that format for a second leg and do the "standard" one set type of show.

[BanksD]

Yes, you most definitely did.  And I agree--IF they are still doing an "evening with" format where they have a second set.  But even if they do a more "standard" type of show where they have an opener and do about a two hour set, it could easily work either as a "suite" or with groups of those songs sprinkled throughout, don't you think?

And while I could be dead wrong, I think that after doing "evening with" shows on the last tour, and this run of VERY difficult "evening with" shows playing The Astonishing (especially difficult for James), it seems likely to me that they would retire that format for a second leg and do the "standard" one set type of show.

As much as I'd love to see an Evening With show, I'm pulling for them to not do that, so they would be more likely to come near where I live 

[Lax]

After a 2-3 weeks break, I'm back at listening to this album, and it stays on its pedestal for me, it's a masterpiece
BTW I always have to lower the car's volume mid-second disk, I don't know why there is a sound bump from around the walking shadow to the end.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, if you haven't yet voted in the Astonishing League finale, you still have a little time!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=47708.0

[avishwanath28]

First post! I've been relistening to this album recently, picked up on a lot of lyrical things I hadn't heard before. I had never actually gone through the lyrics while listening to figure out who exactly is saying what, and I definitely missed some plot parts before (like the whole "bug" thing). For me at this point, this may be my second favorite album after I&W.

I did have two lyrics/plot questions that may have been asked earlier in this thread, so apologies if this is redundant:

1. On the track listing for The Path That Divides, it says that X followed Arhys to Heaven's Cove and was hiding behind a tree as he met Daryus. And in the description for The Walking Shadow, it says "X comes running out of the dark, crying and clinging to his father’s lifeless body, startling Daryus who was unaware that he was present." But wasn't X supposed to be Daryus' prisoner? Did he escape from Daryus? Or did Daryus let him go? But if he let him go, then how was he going to exchange X for Gabriel?

2. When Gabriel screams, he covers X's ears, and Faythe has her earbuds in (I'll suspend belief on this one). But his own ears aren't protected - shouldn't he become deaf like Daryus?

The second one is a bit of a technicality, but I'm more curious about the first one. Thanks!

[cramx3]

for 1, I think Daryus just kidnapped X in his own house as a way to get Arhys to listen to his "tempting offer" and show his seriousness.  I believe he let X go after their discussion for Arhys to make his decision.

[Kotowboy]

2. When Gabriel screams, he covers X's ears, and Faythe has her earbuds in (I'll suspend belief on this one). But his own ears aren't protected - shouldn't he become deaf like Daryus?

Alternate timeline !!!!111

[bosk1]

1. On the track listing for The Path That Divides, it says that X followed Arhys to Heaven's Cove and was hiding behind a tree as he met Daryus. And in the description for The Walking Shadow, it says "X comes running out of the dark, crying and clinging to his father’s lifeless body, startling Daryus who was unaware that he was present." But wasn't X supposed to be Daryus' prisoner? Did he escape from Daryus? Or did Daryus let him go? But if he let him go, then how was he going to exchange X for Gabriel?

Yeah, I agree with what was said above.  Daryus didn't really kidnap him.  He just detained X in his house to get Arhys' attention to present his offer.  After that, he didn't need X anymore.  The offer was simply, "Give me Gabriel, and I will reward you by making sure X is taken care of," with the addition of the implied, "and as my father said [in Three Days], we will spare your entire village from being destroyed," which would have presumably killed X anyway.  Yeah, keeping X would have been extra "insurance."  But that isn't what Daryus did. 

2. When Gabriel screams, he covers X's ears, and Faythe has her earbuds in (I'll suspend belief on this one). But his own ears aren't protected - shouldn't he become deaf like Daryus?

Yeah, no idea.  I think we're just supposed to presume that magical screams do not harm the caster. 

[avishwanath28]

So if he didn't have X, then why did Arhys decide as he did? He basically gave up the entire revolution so X could have a good life in the capital? The choice doesn't seem very stark in that light - unless Arhys really thought he was going to lose the battle, in which case he presumably would have thought that before Daryus visited (I don't see any part of the visit that would have changed that). I thought the whole "I promised Evangeline I would take of our our son" bit was about saving his life, not about making sure he succeeded in the capital. Maybe this is too in the weeds though of a fairly simple plot.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I'm going to the show here at Mexico City on Friday.

I'm excited.

YOU DARE DEFY THE PRINCE?!

[bosk1]

I think the point is supposed to be that Nafaryus' threat in three days was more general and threatened the entire village, and basically dared them to fight.  Daryus' offer made it more personal, made him realize that the threat applied directly to X as well, and gave him a benefit he previously would not have considered.  But it is perhaps more than that as well.  I mean, I think we are supposed to believe that Ravenskill was outmatched and was likely to lose the battle.  But even if they were to win, I think we are supposed to deduce that the fight itself would have taken years, with many people dying on both sides, and the rebels suffering the worst during the time the fighting was going on.  X would still lead a life of comparative misery and might never live to see any sort of reprieve from fighting during his lifetime, assuming he wasn't killed in the fighting anyway.  By accepting the offer, he would not be exposed to any of that, which is why it is..."a tempting offer." 

And I should also point out that Arhys didn't decide to give up the revolution.  He was tempted, and was leaning that way.  But as far as I understand the story, he hadn't actually decided.

[MirrorMask]

I'm perfectly fine with Faythe having the earplugs, she was listening to her muuuusic playeeeeer the whole time, it makes perfectly sense for her to wear them.

What I don't grasp is how Gabriel, in the midst of his desperation of seeing his brother killed and his love dying, had the instict to cover Xander's ears and most of all, how did he know his scream was deafening? did he practice on his own when he was alone and noticed he sent some birds deaf so he knew what was happening?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

A random thought:

I feel underwhelmed on how little the geography on this fictional world is used. I mean, they did a whole friggin' map and the story basically takes place at: Palace, Ravenskill and Heaven's Cove.

[cramx3]

And I should also point out that Arhys didn't decide to give up the revolution.  He was tempted, and was leaning that way.  But as far as I understand the story, he hadn't actually decided.

I thought in Moment of Betrayal was when Arhys actually decided to take Daryus' offer and hence why Daryus knew to go to Heaven's Cove where Gabriel would be alone, but Arhys then reverts on his decision shortly after.

A random thought:

I feel underwhelmed on how little the geography on this fictional world is used. I mean, they did a whole friggin' map and the story basically takes place at: Palace, Ravenskill and Heaven's Cove.

This is true.  Could leave things open for more stories in this universe though.

[bosk1]

And I should also point out that Arhys didn't decide to give up the revolution.  He was tempted, and was leaning that way.  But as far as I understand the story, he hadn't actually decided.

I thought in Moment of Betrayal was when Arhys actually decided to take Daryus' offer and hence why Daryus knew to go to Heaven's Cove where Gabriel would be alone, but Arhys then reverts on his decision shortly after.

Did he actually decide though, or is he just playing it out in his own mind?  I always took it as the latter, with the thought that the first time we hear the story, we are meant to think he actually did it rather than simply getting there in his mind, but not going through with it.  But I could be mistaken.  Either way though, I don't think it changes the overall point.

[fischermasamune]

He was ready to give Gabriel away for the promise of a better life for X; the decision is made "in" The X Aspect and is communicated to Daryus in Moment Of Betrayal. Only in the meeting point, Heaven's Cove, as sung in The Path That Divides, Arhys regrets his decision and decides to confront Daryus instead of turning his brother in.

[avishwanath28]

And I should also point out that Arhys didn't decide to give up the revolution.  He was tempted, and was leaning that way.  But as far as I understand the story, he hadn't actually decided.

I thought in Moment of Betrayal was when Arhys actually decided to take Daryus' offer and hence why Daryus knew to go to Heaven's Cove where Gabriel would be alone, but Arhys then reverts on his decision shortly after.

Did he actually decide though, or is he just playing it out in his own mind?  I always took it as the latter, with the thought that the first time we hear the story, we are meant to think he actually did it rather than simply getting there in his mind, but not going through with it.  But I could be mistaken.  Either way though, I don't think it changes the overall point.

I think he agreed, because he told Daryus to come to Heaven's Cove and that Gabriel would be there - otherwise, how would Daryus know to do that? Also, on the website it said that he accepted the offer. My read of it was that he accepted it but then had a change of heart when he was at Heaven's Cove with Daryus in The Path That Divides.

And I should also point out that Arhys didn't decide to give up the revolution.  He was tempted, and was leaning that way.  But as far as I understand the story, he hadn't actually decided.

I thought in Moment of Betrayal was when Arhys actually decided to take Daryus' offer and hence why Daryus knew to go to Heaven's Cove where Gabriel would be alone, but Arhys then reverts on his decision shortly after.

A random thought:

I feel underwhelmed on how little the geography on this fictional world is used. I mean, they did a whole friggin' map and the story basically takes place at: Palace, Ravenskill and Heaven's Cove.

This is true.  Could leave things open for more stories in this universe though.

It would be pretty cool if they did another song/songs in this universe. Doesn't have to be a whole rock opera again, but maybe a 23 min song to close off an album which is a sequel. I can totally imagine a Star Wars-esque scenario set in the future where Gabriel and Faythe ruled well but then X has an Anakin Skywalker type moment and becomes the next Nafaryus.

[cramx3]

It would be pretty cool if they did another song/songs in this universe. Doesn't have to be a whole rock opera again, but maybe a 23 min song to close off an album which is a sequel. I can totally imagine a Star Wars-esque scenario set in the future where Gabriel and Faythe ruled well but then X has an Anakin Skywalker type moment and becomes the next Nafaryus.

Personally even loving TA, I'd rather see the band move on.  BUT, your idea did spark a similar thought, what about a Change of Seasons like EP.  Maybe 5 tracks in similar TA style (shorter tracks with some recurring themes throughout the songs) in the TA universe and then some live tracks or something?  Essentially the band not really putting so much focus on it, but still releasing music relating to it.  Just a thought.  LIke I said, overall I'd rather them just move on to the next adventure.

[SebastianPratesi]

About GNEA's geography: when the videogame was announced, I assumed it would be an RPG which gave you the chance to travel through all the different parts of the Empire. However, the recent update's screenshot shows the game as some sort of chess with musical instruments, so I don't know.

In the Q&A I attended in Buenos Aires last week, JP confirmed that the novel is well underway. Maybe the whole Empire will be explored in the book eventually.

What I don't grasp is how Gabriel, in the midst of his desperation of seeing his brother killed and his love dying, had the instict to cover Xander's ears and most of all, how did he know his scream was deafening? did he practice on his own when he was alone and noticed he sent some birds deaf so he knew what was happening?

You have to remember that, once the choir joins him during "Hymn Of 1000 Voices", Gabriel somehow finds his voice works again, and it brings Faythe back to life as well. I don't think John intended for every part of the story to be analyzed so rationally. Maybe he did have a superpower

Serious question, though: is there any 'world record' or register of the loudest human scream and any effects? I find it interesting (as well as annoying ) when babies cry during a bus trip, because they can be really loud. Is there any chance someone could go partially deaf by being next to a loud screamer?

[hefdaddy42]

I would just like to say that after months of listening, Disc 2 is better than Disc 1.

[Prog Snob]

I would just like to say that after months of listening, Disc 2 is better than Disc 1.

I can get behind that. Like I've mentioned before, the emotions throughout the second half of disc 2 are  the most important parts of the whole album. It's those songs that bring out the true meaning behind the album. It's not about just saving music. It's about love, loss, absolution, and regret.

[cramx3]

I can definitely say disc 2 is better than I first gave credit for, but disc 1 is just too much awesome music to be taken over by a much shorter disc 2.

[mikeyd23]

I can definitely say disc 2 is better than I first gave credit for, but disc 1 is just too much awesome music to be taken over by a much shorter disc 2.

I'd agree with this. Disc 2 has greatly improved over time for me, it proved to be much more of a slow grower than Disc 1. But, I still prefer Disc 1 over Disc 2.

[CDrice]

I would just like to say that after months of listening, Disc 2 is better than Disc 1.

I'm not sure if I agree, but the first five songs of Disc 2 are my favorite run of songs on the whole album.

[Darkstarshades]

The Astonishing itself could be known as the "end" of the NOMAC conflict, but we know little of what happened before that, I don't think Ahrys would have wanted to spare Nafaryus, as he was more than willing to take down Daryus right there.
I also like to think Nafaryus was mostly ignorant (like his children) of what happened outside the main city's walls, hence why he actually has a change in his mind, and most of the conflicts were caused by the empire's military forces acting independently.

I think this world is too elaborate to be dropped there, would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

[bosk1]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

[TAC]

Exactly!

[hefdaddy42]

would like to have a heavier more prog prequel focusing on the actual conflict set right before TA, where Gabriel's influence on people is just being revealed.

I wouldn't.  I mean, it's cool to speculate about all the unanswered questions and unexplored territory.  But it's a fairly simple, straightforward story.  And, more importantly, it's a story told through a rock opera.  We don't need all questions answered or more territory explored to enjoy it for what it is.

I agree.  No prequels or sequels necessary.

[Darkstarshades]

Just saying because they made a large fuzz about the conflict between the two factions and that is barely even touched in the actual album at all.
And it wouldn't change my perspective of the album at all or make me enjoy it more or less than I already do, the EP idea seems perfect for this, I mean why not? I'm sure JP has thought about it.

[TAC]

They should've stopped Star Wars after the original. Why mess with perfection?