*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Kotowboy]

Pretty sure the first two albums after Portnoy quit were written as a band - just with A Dramatic Turn Of Events without Mangini.

[KevShmev]

Songwriting credit almost always goes to the person or persons who wrote the melodies and/or arrangement.  Things like solos, fills, etc. are, in simple terms, considered embellishment, and not part of the songwriting process from a credit standpoint, in most cases. Like it or not, it's the way it usually is.

[Kotowboy]

Yup. We covered this in music business. Drum parts don't count as songwriting.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I think I've commented on this subject before, so I won't bore anyone with a detailed recap, but I personally don't have a problem with Petrucci and Rudess writing all of the songs by themselves. Most bands just have one or two primary composers, as far as I know. Also, I could be missing something here, but I don't get the sense that anyone is banned from writing; rather, LaBrie, Mangini, and Myung just aren't that interested in doing so.

[mikeyd23]

I like how Jordan continues to be so open in interviews lately about song writing credit, who actually writes in DT present and past. It's refreshing to hear him be so honest about it and also entertaining to see how people react. 

[emtee]

Still loving the music but I can't connect with the story at all.

[Wither]

I don't know about you guys, but when I heard this album, I immediately thought about Ayren's Final Experiment.

[jakepriest]

Still loving the music but I can't connect with the story at all.

The story is okay imo, but I don't really care about it. I listen to music for the music, if I wanted a top notch story, I'd watch a series or read a book. 

[emtee]

Still loving the music but I can't connect with the story at all.

The story is okay imo, but I don't really care about it. I listen to music for the music, if I wanted a top notch story, I'd watch a series or read a book. 

Agreed. It's the music that matters most.

[Calvin6s]

Songwriting credit almost always goes to the person or persons who wrote the melodies and/or arrangement.  Things like solos, fills, etc. are, in simple terms, considered embellishment, and not part of the songwriting process from a credit standpoint, in most cases. Like it or not, it's the way it usually is.

Songwriting credit is left up to those that decide the credit.  Anything other than appropriate credit discourages participation.

[fischermasamune]

Songwriting credit almost always goes to the person or persons who wrote the melodies and/or arrangement.  Things like solos, fills, etc. are, in simple terms, considered embellishment, and not part of the songwriting process from a credit standpoint, in most cases. Like it or not, it's the way it usually is.

Songwriting credit is left up to those that decide the credit.  Anything other than appropriate credit discourages participation.

Yes, but what is appropriate? Most people don't consider coming up with drum parts writing-credits-worthy.

[KevShmev]

Bingo, which is why credit is almost never given for stuff like that.

[SebastianPratesi]

If Myung and Mangini wrote their own parts, then they should get writers credit.

So Ringo Starr should be given writers credit in all Beatles songs? Marco Minnemann, Guthrie Govan in Steven Wilson's solo albums?

If they write their own parts?  Of course.

Yeah, I agree with that. For me, the chord progressions and melodies are no more important than the drumming beats or rhythmic accents. The notion of the melody being the most important part of a composition is silly to me. Whoever contributed a written part should get credited for writing (just as you'd expect whoever contributed a recorded part should get credited for recording).

[bosk1]

Depends.  In a lot of bands, if a drummer comes in with a cool beat, and a song ends up being written around it, the drummer gets writing credit.  If, say, the guitarist comes in with the song, and the drummer creates a beat after the fact that fits the song, the drummer usually does not get credit.  That is how it usually works.

[Dream Team]

These types of arguments have broken up a LOT of great bands. I wish more of them would split the $ diplomatically.

[Kotowboy]

These types of arguments have broken up a LOT of great bands. I wish more of them would split the $ diplomatically.

U2. Split the money 25%. Same 4 guys since 1976.

[KevShmev]

These types of arguments have broken up a LOT of great bands. I wish more of them would split the $ diplomatically.

U2. Split the money 25%. Same 4 guys since 1976.

Rush did the same thing for 41 years with the same three guys splitting their cut evenly every time, no matter what.

I can understand someone not wanting to do that if they are doing all or most of the heavy lifting from a songwriting standpoint, however.

[cramx3]

These types of arguments have broken up a LOT of great bands. I wish more of them would split the $ diplomatically.

U2. Split the money 25%. Same 4 guys since 1976.

Rush did the same thing for 41 years with the same three guys splitting their cut evenly every time, no matter what.

I can understand someone not wanting to do that if they are doing all or most of the heavy lifting from a songwriting standpoint, however.

I can understand that too  But what I think about is, what is more important?  Everyone getting a cut and being happy and able to continue working together for many years (increasing the amount of money you make through longevity at least) or paying out based on creditting and risk unhappy band members and/or money in the long term because the band may break up.

[KevShmev]

I think that is easy to say in hindsight, but how many bands actually persevere and stay together over the long haul?  Not many, percentage wise.  For every successful band, there are 20 that failed miserably, and if you are a prolific songwriter, I can see wanting full credit, that way the money train keeps rolling in once said band bites the dust, especially since that is their full time job.  Trust me, if you were in a band and doing all or most of the writing, I doubt you'd want to share the songwriting royalties with those who are doing little or nothing in that regard.

[cramx3]

Yea, I posed it as a question not really how I feel.  I am no songwriter or artist and I can easily see why the main creator would want their money.  But I also can see how someone would rather keep the band going as well. 

[Dream Team]

Once a band is filthy rich though, there is no more need to continue with that douchebaggery. See: Ward, Bill . . . or Ozzy taking credit for writing songs his guitar players wrote. Dio was also a douche in this regard (anyone seen the recent Vivian Campbell interview)? No matter how rich a lot of these guys get, they hate to split a penny. 

[hefdaddy42]

Not sharing credit with someone who didn't actually write the song =/= douchebaggery.

[SchecterShredder]

These types of arguments have broken up a LOT of great bands. I wish more of them would split the $ diplomatically.

U2. Split the money 25%. Same 4 guys since 1976.

Actually U2 split the money 20% each, the four members and the manager. They're probably the exception though in the industry.

[Calvin6s]

The credit option is an interesting angle.

But for the record, my original comment had nothing to do with royalties and songwriting percentages.  It was the idea that there seems to be an exuberance for purposefully cutting the rest of the band out of the process.  From what we've been told, it isn't that Myung has no ideas, but that his ideas are more sections and parts than fully developed ideas.  Mangini, I'm at a loss for what his writing process is.  They made a big deal out of jamming ideas of each other during the drummer auditions, so it would be hard to say he can't be there adding to the spark.  Why, as Jordan put it, minimize the writing sources?

[bosk1]

From what we've been told, it isn't that Myung has no ideas, but that his ideas are more sections and parts than fully developed ideas.

That is my understanding as well.  And it is typical in a band for there to be a couple of guys that are like that.  And it is also typical that one of those guys is often the bassist. 

Mangini, I'm at a loss for what his writing process is.  They made a big deal out of jamming ideas of each other during the drummer auditions, so it would be hard to say he can't be there adding to the spark.  Why, as Jordan put it, minimize the writing sources?

Not sure what his m.o. is for writing.  But I get the sense that (1) he isn't and has never really been a proactive songwriter.  At his level, I'm sure he could write and/or compose music if he wanted to, but I just don't get the sense that he has ever really wanted to in any of the bands/projects he has been in.  (2) He seems to be a pretty deferential guy.  That came through in the audition videos, and I have seen that thread run through things he has said in interviews and social media posts since then.  Of course, it could be that the editing in the audition videos made it seem that he is more deferential than he actually is and that I am now just reading that into other things he says.  But that's my perception anyway.

As for what was revealed in the audition videos about the writing process and what they were looking for, I have a couple of thoughts:  (1) They wanted someone who can follow along with them jamming because that is how they like to write, but that does not necessarily mean that they want/expect the drummer to do more than create drum parts as they are doing that.  Or maybe (2) That is what they were looking for at the time, but the writing process has changed/evolved significantly with Mangini in the band and Portnoy out, simply by virtue of the fact that they wrote most of the music for ADTOE without the new drummer just because that felt right at the time, and maybe that took them in a different direction that JP realized he liked.  And then, two albums later, the inspiration struck for him to sequester himself and Jordan to write TA as a duo.  So it is possible that maybe despite what they thought they were looking for, the writing process organically evolved in a different direction after they actually brought Mangini into the band.  Of course, both of these theories are pure speculation on my part, but either seems like it could be perfectly legit.

In any case, when I see them in May, I am going to try to do my best to remember to discuss this with them and try to get more of a handle on the nuts and bolts of their writing process, and will share whatever I can about whatever I learn. 

[Dream Team]

Not sharing credit with someone who didn't actually write the song =/= douchebaggery.

Right, I was mostly referring to ones who behave like Ozzy and Dio.

[erwinrafael]

If Myung and Mangini wrote their own parts, then they should get writers credit.

So Ringo Starr should be given writers credit in all Beatles songs? Marco Minnemann, Guthrie Govan in Steven Wilson's solo albums?

If they write their own parts?  Of course.

Yeah, I agree with that. For me, the chord progressions and melodies are no more important than the drumming beats or rhythmic accents. The notion of the melody being the most important part of a composition is silly to me. Whoever contributed a written part should get credited for writing (just as you'd expect whoever contributed a recorded part should get credited for recording).

So if I write a full song, but get sessionists to "write" their parts becausr I know nothing about drums or bass, they should get songwruting credit?

I think I would only be amenable to "arranged by"

[erwinrafael]

The credit option is an interesting angle.

But for the record, my original comment had nothing to do with royalties and songwriting percentages.  It was the idea that there seems to be an exuberance for purposefully cutting the rest of the band out of the process.  From what we've been told, it isn't that Myung has no ideas, but that his ideas are more sections and parts than fully developed ideas.  Mangini, I'm at a loss for what his writing process is.  They made a big deal out of jamming ideas of each other during the drummer auditions, so it would be hard to say he can't be there adding to the spark.  Why, as Jordan put it, minimize the writing sources?

But if we go by the statements JR is making, the two-man JP-JR songwriting tandem may actually be the more accurate description of how they have been writing all these years. They were just more transparent this time.

Mangini, on the writing of DT, said that JP and JR's ideas come so fast that before he can think of a melody, the guys usually already get something written down. Mangini did offer suggestions on breakdowns, because JR loves how he thinks in big chunks (19/6 instead of small 4/4 and 3/4 combos). For example, MM if I remember correctly, came up with the odd beat in the " mothers for their children..." part in IT.

[Mladen]

Depends.  In a lot of bands, if a drummer comes in with a cool beat, and a song ends up being written around it, the drummer gets writing credit.  If, say, the guitarist comes in with the song, and the drummer creates a beat after the fact that fits the song, the drummer usually does not get credit.  That is how it usually works.

Flawless logic right there. I also think that's exactly how it works.

[Calvin6s]

In any case, when I see them in May, I am going to try to do my best to remember to discuss this with them and try to get more of a handle on the nuts and bolts of their writing process, and will share whatever I can about whatever I learn.

Cool.  I don't like drilling down too deep (publicly) because they can do whatever they want.  I have my theory on Mangini as well, but it really doesn't matter in the end.

[SebastianPratesi]

So if I write a full song, but get sessionists to "write" their parts becausr I know nothing about drums or bass, they should get songwruting credit?

I think I would only be amenable to "arranged by"

If you 'know nothing' about drums/bass, and those were part of the song, then you didn't write a full song - you wrote the majority of the song, at most. So yeah, sessionists should get songwriting credit (from my perspective).

That said, I never understood completely what "arrangements by" means while reading albums credits, so maybe an 'arranging' credit is the way to credit those sessionists. Still, sounds like an 'honorable mention' to me.

[BlobVanDam]

There's a difference between adding/writing a part of a song, and writing a part of the song that is crucial and distinctive enough to the song to be a part of the copyrighted composition.
Drums rarely count (in the legal sense) because their purpose is largely to keep the beat of a song, and is not usually an essential and unique enough component. Does Phil Rudd deserve a writing credit for playing a basic 4/4 beat to every single AC/DC song? Where do we draw the line? Even though that's a more extreme case, I'd say there are very few times the drums count for enough to deserve credit, regardless of how intricate or difficult they may be.

Copyright is really about who created the bare essence of a song. Whether DT want to credit the whole out of diplomacy, or credit people individually, doesn't make a difference to me. We know every member of the band has contributed their own part to the album.

[Moor]

For the first time in DT history watch a band member eating and drinking for 9 minutes straight !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NnLo-ihSF8

[hefdaddy42]

[Moor]

For the first time in DT history watch a band member eating and drinking for 9 minutes straight !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NnLo-ihSF8

At 2.20 the translator translating an elder man: "he met Kevin Moore"
JLB: "we met Kevin Moore too"

hahahahahahahahahaha