*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[cramx3]

I actually agree with you that it would be very helpful to be able to include RYM and other public scores. I'm honestly not sure why those sorts of things are frowned upon.

I'd imagine a site that tries to be accurate and factual would not want to insert something that could be "controversial" in the fact that as hinted, those ratings could be skewed by trolls or by a strong bias.  Where as publications are considered to be reliable although I'd imagine there is still bias in these reviews.  Just a thought.

[hefdaddy42]

By default, unless one has good reason to believe otherwise, one should assume that there is no difference in demographic between DT fans who go to concerts and DT fans who rate an album on Sputnik and RYM.

Both groups may come from the same demographic, but that is not the same as saying both groups are the same group.

I doubt very seriously that most DT concertgoers also rate albums on sites like that.  That's like saying most DT fans who buy albums post about them at DTF.org, when it is obvious that this is not the case at all.

Rating music on sites like that is something that appeals to a specific kind of person.  For example, I don't do it, and wouldn't think of doing it, and I don't know anyone who DOES do it, except for some people like you that I only know online.  The vast majority of music listeners do not do any online rankings like that other than a tweet or a fb post, at best.

[Outcrier]

RYM and Sputnik have rated DT albums normally in the past, much like DTF rates them. Again, unless you have a compelling reason for why this would be different for TA, one must assume the demographic of voters is the same as with previous albums.

This. RYM holds in high esteem albums like Images, Scenes, Awake.

[SebastianPratesi]

I was just browsing through the Dream Theater statistics in Setlist.fm. Here's something interesting (to me at least):

So far, The Astonishing songs account for 580 plays (20 shows x 29 songs - the NOMACs tracks are not counted). That's more plays than the songs in Dream Theater and BC&SL.

By the time the European leg of the tour ends next week, there will have been 783 plays, which will make The Astonishing the 8th most played album by the band.

If you add the 21 shows of the North American leg in April/May (well, I see 21 shows listed on the official website), the total plays rise to 1392, making the album the 5th most played, surpassing SDoIT.

And that's only in 3 months of touring! By the end of the North American leg, the band will have played 48 shows, which is basically half of a world tour. So, we can assume that the total plays for The Astonishing will be 2000+ by the end of the year. That would make the album rise to 4th place (surpassing FII).

Now, I'm assuming the possibility that future shows will replace some songs with earlier classics. If that's not the case, and considering that they will surely play at least some other 48 shows (they've confirmed the tour going into 2017), the total ammount of plays for the album will have made it almost 2800, making The Astonishing the 2nd most played album (surpassing Awake and SFaM, and only behind Images & Words).

That is astonishing!

(Yes, the last part is possible, but unlikely. Still, in May, The Astonishing will rank 5th, becoming their most played album besides their '90s material - and that in less than 4 moths after release. That's pretty mindblowing if you ask me. I think it shows the band doesn't rest on their laurels and are really confident and happy about their new music).

EDIT: For reference, here are the Top 5 albums ordered by the ammount of plays the songs have received over the years. The statistics in Setlist.fm might be incomplete, though. Either way, The Astonishing will rank somewhere in the Top 3 once this World Tour finishes. Calling it now.

1st: I&W - 3615
2nd: SFaM - 2703
3rd: Awake - 2446
4th: FII - 1547
5th: SDoIT - 1372

[fischermasamune]

It's unfair to count a full play of TA as 29 and a full play of I&W as 8.
If we want to measure the importance the songs are given in the concerts, we should also worry about the time spent playing the songs.

[SebastianPratesi]

It's unfair to count a full play of TA as 29 and a full play of I&W as 8.
If we want to measure the importance the songs are given in the concerts, we should also worry about the time spent playing the songs.

OK, fair point. Still, you can think of it this way:

1. At least by May, The Astonishing in its entirety will have been played 48 out of 48 possible times. That means the 'time spent' playing these songs will have been as much as possible, and a hell of a lot of - around 100 hours. In fact, The Astonishing will have had more live time (in just 3 months) than the self-titled and BC&SL, and almost the same as Systematic Chaos and Octavarium (and those have been around for many years). That's a pretty good start! And that's only by May.

2. If they continue to play the album in it's entirety for another 48 times (which seems possible), the 200 hours dedicated to it (just in 2016/7) will beat the time spent (through the years) to many other albums - ToT, ADToE, WDaDU and SDoIT - leaving The Astonishing in the 5th place.

Bottom line: whether you count the songs or the ammount of time, The Astonishing will "do" pretty good, and surpass at least 6 albums in this World Tour alone. Time-wise, it probably will never make it to the Top 3*, but those 3 have been around for a long, long time.

(To calculate roughly each album's live time, I used the Setlist.fm statistics and the songs' lengths, taking into account some are extended live - i.e. "Octavarium" would be 25' instead of 24', and so on. Not the best way, but then what else can you do?)



*Unless they decide to play The Astonishing until the end of their career! Yeay!

[ariich]

By default, unless one has good reason to believe otherwise, one should assume that there is no difference in demographic between DT fans who go to concerts and DT fans who rate an album on Sputnik and RYM.

That's an absolutely bonkers claim. For a start, a lot of people rate things on those sites who are NOT fans. I rate absolutely tons of albums for bands that I'm not a fan of. If I listen to an album, I'll rate it.

[retaehTmaerD]

It would be great if people could just give their opinions without looking for some "objective" measure to prove they are right in their disliking (or loving) of the album...

Only statement that can be proved is that as of now the astonishing tour has been successful.

[rumborak]

BTW, I can't unhear the following: "Arhys time is running out, what will your decision be, if you still have any doubt, think about Mangini...".

I mean, even knowing the lyrics, I still don't hear "Evangeline" in that

[Destiny Of Chaos]

BTW, I can't unhear the following: "Arhys time is running out, what will your decision be, if you still have any doubt, think about Mangini...".

I mean, even knowing the lyrics, I still don't hear "Evangeline" in that

But wadabout the 4th syllable...

[AngelBack]

Burning rolls
Secret sauce
Moment of betrayal

[Ben_Jamin]

Send home the huevos, call off the fight.

[smegolas]

Burning rolls
Secret sauce
Moment of betrayal

yup, Ive heard secret sauce from day 1.

[cramx3]

I fucking love the secret sauce 

[King Postwhore]

I fucking love the secret sauce 

I've read this about you in the Lonely Hearts Club Thread.

[cramx3]

I fucking love the secret sauce 

I've read this about you in the Lonely Hearts Club Thread.

  the truth is out

[Kotowboy]

Moment of Baking Tray fall.

[RoeDent]

  Ah yes! With a new album comes a new batch of misheard lyrics!

[Bacong]

>not listening to the astonishing constantly

[Mladen]

Had a gig last night in a tiny local club in one of the smaller Serbian cities, so to speak. At some point before we went on stage, Lord Nafaryus started playing from the PA. I don' think anyone knew what it was, but I lost my shit. 

[Bertielee]

Had a gig last night in a tiny local club in one of the smaller Serbian cities, so to speak. At some point before we went on stage, Lord Nafaryus started playing from the PA. I don' think anyone knew what it was, but I lost my shit. 

Cool!!!

[Calvin6s]

Even as someone who really likes the new album, I would prefer they just focus on the music and not dwell on the TA universe in other ways than the album as presented.

Absolutely this.  And it has nothing to do with the album.  I listen to DT for new music (the listen implies that).

[Enigmachine]

Even as someone who really likes the new album, I would prefer they just focus on the music and not dwell on the TA universe in other ways than the album as presented.

Absolutely this.  And it has nothing to do with the album.  I listen to DT for new music (the listen implies that).

Ok, but this isn't going to take anything away from what DT are doing. DT are contracting other people to do the multimedia stuff, so they can focus purely on the music. Not sure what the harm is in that.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm interested in the universe. Because it'd all seem like a waste to have a map that big, with the story taking place in only a section of it.

There's a lot they can expand upon, I'd like to check out the book. Hell, I even bought the Terra Incognita books to go along with the CDs. Also had to buy the Clockwork Angels book, which isn't a bad read. As long as JP collaborates with a good established writer, I have faith this will be interesting.

[Calvin6s]

There are so many DT threads that it is hard to know if this is floating around here already:
DREAM THEATER Keyboardist Says His Relationship With JOHN PETRUCCI Was 'Solidified' During Making Of 'The Astonishing'

TBH, I don't like the excerpts on the site.

Wow, it would be really cool if Jordan and I could sit down just together alone, without anybody else there, and just write this music

Also didn't care for

When I was brought into the band, I was brought in because John Petrucci really needed to have a writing partner. He was basically doing it by himself, for the most part

Seems like a slap to the current band and then to Sherinian, Myung and Portnoy.

[erwinrafael]

I don't see how it could be a slap to other members of the band if it turns out that it is actually the real case. Credit should be given where credit is due.

It's like saying that if The Beatles went the way of crediting their songwriting then to "The Beatles" and then later came out with an admission that most of the songs were actually Lennon-McCartney, it would be slap to George and Ringo.

What is more interesting to me is why they never did give credit where credit is due back then. What internal dynamics made them credit songwriting to Dream Theater when Petrucci and Rudess were actually doing most of the writing,

[Calvin6s]

Having gone through this (as many others have I'm sure), the idea of credit on songwriting is slippery.  But we aren't even talking about credit.  We are talking about contributions and working relationships.

The most important part is usually the spark.  Coming up with the hook or theme or intro or big riff.  And then you can have somebody that is a co-writer.  They can be an equal or just 2nd strongest writer.  This usually adds some magic that neither person can get alone.

Now you had MP that acted as a sounding board / arranger.  And what I always hear about Myung is he comes up with some great parts, but isn't great at completing a song by himself.  Well, those are important contributions nevertheless.  Arguing about credit as to whether that drum part is worth 5% or 10% is purely for the financial part of the arrangement.  And it might have been 5% of the perspiration, but some could argue that it took the song from great to classic.

But they are talking about cutting Mangini and Myung out of the majority of the creation process.  And LaBrie nearly from the beginning.  The first thing I recall during the MP exit was how he was holding back everybody from contributing and now they could finally be a real band again.  Where Myung could give his one crazy part and they'd accept it instead of scolding him for not having it more developed.  But then I read that not only are they not doing that, but it seems even less band oriented than before.  And it doesn't sound like it will be that way for just this one album.  That doesn't sound promising.

[erwinrafael]

I believe the opposite. By starting individual songwriting credit, it would encourage members to contribute more. The Astonishing is a special case because from the start, it is JP's baby. I am pretty sure this is clear with the members, and I think the idea of finally being recognized for their contributions led JR and JP to compose some of their finest work in DT (a 2+ hour musical with recurring themes is not a mean feat). By starting this trend, I am thinking that the other band members would be more proactive in composition in the next album because they now decided that they would be individually recognized, not lumped under DT even if you wrote 90% of the song.

Individual songwriting credit never stopped bands from producing great music. Queen. The Eagles. Haken. Steven Wilson gets all the songwriting credit even if Guthrie Govan writes all his guitar parts. 

[Calvin6s]

You keep getting hung up on credit.  That's not what I'm talking about.

[SebastianPratesi]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with most of what you said, except I think the next album will include songwriting by JM/Mike. I don't think JP/Jordan are going into 'dictator' mode.

Another thing Jordan confirmed, which doesn't appear as an excerpt, is that the book is already in the works. He mentions it at the 10 minute mark. I know there was already mention of a book on the works in the recent Yahoo article, but it's nice getting the statement from a direct source.

[erwinrafael]

You keep getting hung up on credit.  That's not what I'm talking about.

I think the credit and the contributions you are talking about come hand in hand. I think what JR is saying is that for the most part, most of the songwriting contributions are by JP and JR since he came onboard. It was just never reflected in the songwriting credits (which is why I keep on bring up that part). TA is just more transparent about that.

It's not like JP and JR wrote MM and JM's parts. They sent the music to them with just keys, guitars and a click track. They contributed all of their parts to the song.

[Calvin6s]

If Myung and Mangini wrote their own parts, then they should get writers credit.

[erwinrafael]

If Myung and Mangini wrote their own parts, then they should get writers credit.

So Ringo Starr should be given writers credit in all Beatles songs? Marco Minnemann, Guthrie Govan in Steven Wilson's solo albums?

[Calvin6s]

If Myung and Mangini wrote their own parts, then they should get writers credit.

So Ringo Starr should be given writers credit in all Beatles songs? Marco Minnemann, Guthrie Govan in Steven Wilson's solo albums?

If they write their own parts?  Of course.

[Bertielee]

Having gone through this (as many others have I'm sure), the idea of credit on songwriting is slippery.  But we aren't even talking about credit.  We are talking about contributions and working relationships.

The most important part is usually the spark.  Coming up with the hook or theme or intro or big riff.  And then you can have somebody that is a co-writer.  They can be an equal or just 2nd strongest writer.  This usually adds some magic that neither person can get alone.

Now you had MP that acted as a sounding board / arranger.  And what I always hear about Myung is he comes up with some great parts, but isn't great at completing a song by himself.  Well, those are important contributions nevertheless.  Arguing about credit as to whether that drum part is worth 5% or 10% is purely for the financial part of the arrangement.  And it might have been 5% of the perspiration, but some could argue that it took the song from great to classic.

But they are talking about cutting Mangini and Myung out of the majority of the creation process.  And LaBrie nearly from the beginning.  The first thing I recall during the MP exit was how he was holding back everybody from contributing and now they could finally be a real band again.  Where Myung could give his one crazy part and they'd accept it instead of scolding him for not having it more developed.  But then I read that not only are they not doing that, but it seems even less band oriented than before.  And it doesn't sound like it will be that way for just this one album.  That doesn't sound promising.

I'm completely with you on that, CalvinS and I had already mentioned my worries as regards the exclusion of the other guys from the writing process before.

B.Lee