*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[MirrorMask]

As others already said, I think this album could really have three acts; Three Days' ending has "Commercial break incoming" written all over it. I actually wish that The Hovering Sojourn and Digital Discord were swapped, since the latter is longer and would mark even more "Act I - part 1" and "Act I - part 2" so to speak.

Oh, and if we arbitrarly decide that there are three acts and the first ends with Three Days, I'd say that act is basically perfect. There's not a moment on it that I would change or shorten.

[BlobVanDam]

Oh, and if we arbitrarly decide that there are three acts and the first ends with Three Days, I'd say that act is basically perfect. There's not a moment on it that I would change or shorten.

I don't love every moment of it, but from the start of the album up until the end of Three Days is a hell of a run, and largely what I love in the album.

[Pettor]

After 1 week listen to album I just love it more and more. Its constantly on my mind and I want to rerun it once more just longing to find 2 hours without interruption.

Some songs are of course more highlights than others but personally like them all and think they have a valid place. Love the recurring themes and they just seem to get more epic with each time it happen.

Also as huge LaBrie fan this is just so much candy. Human Equation was a previous statement of how well this voice fit the rock opera concept and now there is 2 hours of just that! OMG!!!

[PixelDream]

I'm glad everyone's enjoying this, but I'm heartbroken. I was already with the last two albums, but they were alright. At least they still had a little rock 'n roll to them. Don't get me wrong, I like DT's ballads for the most part. But the amount here is just cringeworthy, story or no story. Also, I'm baffled by the amount of seven-string guitar here while not sounding heavy at all.. it's like the band have no idea about what makes music cool in the first place. I honestly can't say I prefer The Astonishing over When Dream and Day Unite.

https://youtu.be/BFK3H5Tl_Lo?t=180

[Bertielee]

it's like the band have no idea about what makes music cool in the first place. I honestly can't say I prefer The Astonishing over When Dream and Day Unite.

I strongly disagree with you on both your points : the music is not cool for YOU, and that's different to say the music is not cool ; WDaDU is not really good composition-wise and what can I say about the prod?
Yet, and we can agree on this, it seems as if the band has forgotten to make a good album from start to finish, that is in its entirety.

B.Lee

[TheAtliator]

A couple more days of letting it sit and I only feel much more strongly that When Dream and Day Unite is a greater work. That album is so absolutely glorious in so many ways, and it's funny how listening to/thinking about that album really brings out to me so many of the most important aspects of powerful song writing that is so missing from The Astonishing.

For many, it is difficult to hear these aspects on WDADU because it's hidden behind low quality production and bad singing (no offense to CD, who I fully respect), and because some of these aspects are a bit deeper and more intricate than what the average (or even DT) listener picks up on at first.

But it is a certain purpose behind the song that drives the direction and makes the writer search for perfection in every note and lyric. That can only be fueled by a passion in the writer to express something, and it's what will ignite that same passion in the listener when they feel it.

I will also add that A Dramatic Turn of Events is a great example of music with that passion and direction. I don't, by any stretch, believe that DT has lost that; I just find Astonishing to be the weakest.

[Enigmachine]

I'm glad everyone's enjoying this, but I'm heartbroken. I was already with the last two albums, but they were alright. At least they still had a little rock 'n roll to them. Don't get me wrong, I like DT's ballads for the most part. But the amount here is just cringeworthy, story or no story. Also, I'm baffled by the amount of seven-string guitar here while not sounding heavy at all.. it's like the band have no idea about what makes music cool in the first place. I honestly can't say I prefer The Astonishing over When Dream and Day Unite.

https://youtu.be/BFK3H5Tl_Lo?t=180

'Hearbroken'? A bit too self pitying, isn't it? Come on, it's just an album that disappointed you just because it doesn't allign with your tastes. Also, is seven string supposed to be always heavy? If anything, it's probably more creative that they used the extended range for something other than heaviness.

About the link, Anthony Fantano hates prog metal, so it's invalid. Also, holy crap are some of those comments so terrible. "I hate Dream Theater so much. On a personal level. What pisses me off is they know that no one respects them for what they're doing, yet they still insist on not putting any feel into their music. They don't understand that their idols, while they sound technical at times, achieved what they achieved through 100% feel. Technical playing was just an after thought". Wow. Hey, why don't Dream Theater do something different for their next album, put some FEEL into it! Hell, it may even get someone to respect them! I get that people can dislike the album, but to do it in such a gloriously douchey way (not talking about you, PixelDream) just irritates me to no end.

Sorry if I came off too aggressive, there.

it seems as if the band has forgotten to make a good album from start to finish, that is in its entirety.

B.Lee

I disagree with this, but I may be in the minority.

A couple more days of letting it sit and I only feel much more strongly that When Dream and Day Unite is a greater work. That album is so absolutely glorious in so many ways, and it's funny how listening to/thinking about that album really brings out to me so many of the most important aspects of powerful song writing that is so missing from The Astonishing.

For many, it is difficult to hear these aspects on WDADU because it's hidden behind low quality production and bad singing (no offense to CD, who I fully respect), and because some of these aspects are a bit deeper and more intricate than what the average (or even DT) listener picks up on at first.

But it is a certain purpose behind the song that drives the direction and makes the writer search for perfection in every note and lyric. That can only be fueled by a passion in the writer to express something, and it's what will ignite that same passion in the listener when they feel it.

I will also add that A Dramatic Turn of Events is a great example of music with that passion and direction. I don't, by any stretch, believe that DT has lost that; I just find Astonishing to be the weakest.

That's probably a fair observation, it seems many see WDaDU as the anti-sacred cow of the DT discography when there's still some enjoyable stuff on there, if people are willing to listen for it. I don't really agree that TA is worse, but I respect your opinion.

[Prog Snob]

Just popping in here to give my two cents after reading this thread.

While I don't know the writing dynamic I don't really care for JR's contributions on The Astonishing. I'm assuming he did the orchestration and it's just too much. I feel like they should have taken a more simple approach to this new album instead of the this grand rock album.

I like what they did with this album. It's undoubtedly different and not something I would expect from them at this stage of their career. It'll never be a top 5 Dream Theater CD for me (ADTOE is number 5 and I don't think the new CD will be able to surpass that), but there are a lot of great songs on The Astonishing and it's really starting to grow on me. The first time I heard Moment of Betrayal I was not impressed but now it's one of my favorite songs on the album.

I like that they took the the risk and did something different, it's just not for me. I wish they went a bit more stripped down. This album reminds me of "Use Your Illusion" to me in the way that with some trimming it would have made a great single disc. This is all my opinion though.

I totally get that, and you have something there by saying that they could have made this one disc and got rid of a few tracks here and there. I'm not saying the songs should be removed because they're bad songs. It just might have been easier for some people to digest if they condensed everything down to one disc. I still thoroughly enjoy it and each listen makes me appreciate it more.

My biggest gripe are the lyrics. I think for someone who wrote the beautifully ambiguous lyrics to Metropolis Part 1, some of the lyrical passages on the new CD seem a bit...amateurish.

[noxon]

Some comments about Awake when it was released in '94

As the new DT record was released earlier here in Sweden, I bought it last
thursday. I was very hopeful that it was going to be a great album (I had
not heard any samples of the songs before). But I most say that I'm NOT
impressed. This is not the interesting, progressive music heard on the last
albums, but a ordinary Headbangers-Ball-Metal record.

Ok, I'm a lurker who got an early copy of Awake, and I just like to say
people whining about Awake need to find a new list or get their head
examined :-) Its certainly my favorite DT album.

And how about a review of Images and Words:

        First of all, "When Dream and Day Unite" is perhaps one of my ALL-TIME
        favorite progressive/metal albums!!!!

        But even with all the hype of this new album and new singer, I was
        still kinda skeptical about it...

        Well, I popped it in the ol' player and was blown away! (literally)

        But, too bad the rest of the songs weren't as spectacular as the
        first one...

And Six Degrees:

DT has been "caught in a web" of its own creation by over zealously
falling to the lure of the progressive "one fantastically long track"
syndrome - which albeit worked so often for it and other bands like
Spock's Beard ('Great Nothing').  But this current album and it's SIX
degrees is basically a pile of pooh.  Track one is the only one that
comes close to true excellence. 

I can't beleive all the good things I am hearing about this new cd set!
I think disc one totally sucks! I have listened to it over and over,but
you can't make yourself like something! It should have been released as
a single CD with just the second Cd's material. They sound like napalm
death and pantera,what a dissapointment!

I could do this for all the albums, and find a LOT of examples of dislike, even flat out hatred.


My point is; polarization of the fan base has been the norm for Dream Theater - and you'll always find the people that don't like it. Even SFAM had its detractors. The interview I posted earlier with Mike from 2004 said it simply: DT themselves don't even know what to do to please their fans, BECAUSE the fanbase is so diverse that regardless of what they do people will love it, people will hate it.

[Enigmachine]

My point is; polarization of the fan base has been the norm for Dream Theater - and you'll always find the people that don't like it. Even SFAM had its detractors. The interview I posted earlier with Mike from 2004 said it simply: DT themselves don't even know what to do to please their fans, BECAUSE the fanbase is so diverse that regardless of what they do people will love it, people will hate it.

I think what makes people forget this is that those albums have properly sunk deep into the DT legacy and have a very well defined purpose to them due to hindsight while it can be difficult to really view how an album like TA fits in the context of DT's discography without biases or kneejerk reactions until there are a few albums afterwards putting it into context. Just look how the reputations of albums such as FII, ToT and Awake have improved, it's because we can now appreciate them for what they are, not what was built up due to hype and expectation. I hope I'm making sense here.

[Bertielee]

My point is; polarization of the fan base has been the norm for Dream Theater - and you'll always find the people that don't like it. Even SFAM had its detractors. The interview I posted earlier with Mike from 2004 said it simply: DT themselves don't even know what to do to please their fans, BECAUSE the fanbase is so diverse that regardless of what they do people will love it, people will hate it.

I think what makes people forget this is that those albums have properly sunk deep into the DT legacy and have a very well defined purpose to them due to hindsight while it can be difficult to really view how an album like TA fits in the context of DT's discography without biases or kneejerk reactions until there are a few albums afterwards putting it into context. Just look how the reputations of albums such as FII, ToT and Awake have improved, it's because we can now appreciate them for what they are, not what was built up due to hype and expectation. I hope I'm making sense here.

It's perfectly clear and I agree with you there.

B.Lee

[noxon]

Or as seen from the negative peoples perspective: "it's just that the newer albums as SO bad that we now see that the old ones were better"

[James Sucellus]

I think Act II starts and ends strongly. I like Losing Faythe more than most people here. The middle just lacks the strong focus of the rest of the album, although it's by no means bad. For me it's already easily in the top half of DT's discography. The run from Systemic Chaos to DT12 is so formulaic and interchangeable.

This album has flaws, but I think even fans who don't like it will have more interesting thoughts about it than that it tried to copy Images and Words in a mediocre manner. Again. I'm glad Dream Theater were more concerned with making good music this album, rather than trying to sound like Dream Theater and meet all simple expectations, which made them a formulaic pastiche band for a while.

I think it's a good sign this album is winning PASSIONATE love or dislike, rather than the general, 'It's OK I guess because it's more DT' reactions their albums have had for over a decade now.

[Enigmachine]

I think it's a good sign this album is winning PASSIONATE love or dislike, rather than the general, 'It's OK I guess because it's more DT' reactions their albums have had for over a decade now.

I think Jordan mentioned that he'd rather have people rate it 1 and 5 out of 5 than 3 or 4 because then he knew that a risk had been taken.

[Gromit1710]

Or as seen from the negative peoples perspective: "it's just that the newer albums as SO bad that we now see that the old ones were better"

"Bad" isn't the correct term, is it? Makes it sound like there's a one size fits all scale to judge any and all music to. Maybe "...SO far away from what I was hoping for..."

'Cause that's essentially what this fanbase is always divided over, isn't it?


"I don't like this because I like DT for "X" style. This album has too much "Y" style for me."

[noxon]

You must've been reading different social media than me

[James Sucellus]

My Last Farewell has grown on me a lot. I think the only song on the album I'm not keen on now is Whispers on the Wind.

[Bertielee]

My Last Farewell has grown on me a lot. I think the only song on the album I'm not keen on now is Whispers on the Wind.

To each his own and that's the beauty of it. I love WotW, the melody and JLB's singing are top-notch for me.

B.Lee

[James Sucellus]

LaBrie is top notch on every track. It's his career best.

Whispers on the Wind may grow on me. There is not a single track on here I find too boring to listen to. Insanely consistent release in that regard. The songwriting in Act 2 is still great. The track structure itself just isn't as flawless as in Act I. I've seen comments that Hymn of a Thousand Voices or Astonishing are underwhelming, but I love them.

I'm so impressed with this release, and it feels like everywhere else online hates it. I'm glad people on here seem to dig it.

[ResultsMayVary]

I might be in the minority that loves Act II.

[SwedishGoose]

I might be in the minority that loves Act II.

I love both Acts....!

[dparrott]

Hey, why don't Dream Theater do something different for their next album, put some FEEL into it! Hell, it may even get someone to respect them!

How anyone can say this album doesn't have feel to it is beyond me.  There was variety in feel just in the first single!

And just because someone doesn't like an album doesn't mean it's a bad album.  I think ADTOE is blah, but I ain't making long posts bashing it.

Maybe people's perception of TA will improve with its age....once they get over their personal expectations.

[dparrott]

Just thinking....the fact they recorded this beast in just a few months is impressive.  Most bands take months just to record an album half this length and nowhere near as detailed!

[James Sucellus]

I might be in the minority that loves Act II.

I also love it. Its only crime is not being as insanely amazing as Act I, which was of a quality I'd given up the band being capable of again. I got 'SFAM chills' during many parts. I could bang on about this album's flaws for ages, but it's still a classic DT album, which I never thought would happen again.

[Train of Naught]

Hey, why don't Dream Theater do something different for their next album, put some FEEL into it! Hell, it may even get someone to respect them!

How anyone can say this album doesn't have feel to it is beyond me.  There was variety in feel just in the first single!

[Gromit1710]

LaBrie is top notch on every track. It's his career best.

Yes. Absolutely. He should feel intensely proud of himself for his performance on this release.

I'm so impressed with this release, and it feels like everywhere else online hates it. I'm glad people on here seem to dig it.

They've never been one to appeal to light hearted listeners.  3(  And this album needs even seasoned DT fans to invest in opening your ears and mind to more than just disposable earcandy, wankery or crunchy riffs. It's structured, produced and designed as a broadway type musical more than a concept album. A lot of people aren't fans of that and it will turn them right off to the whole thing instantly. And whatever... The biggest and most rewarding risks they've always taken are the ones that don't appeal to broad markets and casual listeners.

Personally though... I love musicals   

It's been a week of listening to it, and so many different melodies and passages from it are constantly running through my head. It's done what all the DT albums I love have done, invaded my headspace, sat down next to whatever mechanism causes you to hum melodies and taken it over.

[theseoafs]

Oh, and to add to my last post -- I think SFAM did a much better job of using the music to convey the story.

I made this point to a friend the other day, I think the problem is that JP was trying to drive along the plot with the lyrics of the songs. Not even musicals do that, they always have a lot of spoken dialogue to drive the plot, and then have the songs reserved for crucial sections that usually showcase a crucial emotional element of the plot.
So, TA wastes precious time on lyrics like "can you help me? Nope, busy. Oh, OK." or that Nafaryus goes on a trip. Key parts, like Nefaryus' change of mind from switching from an oppressive ruler to a benign supporter of the art, are shortchanged and don't come across as believable.
IMHO, TA should have been a written short story in the booklet, with all the details necessary to make all parts believable, and the songs would have focused on key characterand plot parts.

Some musicals are sung-through, Les Mis being probably the most famous example, and not to mention all operas which have little to no spoken parts. It's not like there isn't precedent for this in the arts, but you could still make the argument that some of the tracks aren't as engaging as others because they deal in less interesting subject matter.

[James Sucellus]

Finished around my 15h listen. Shed tears at the end.

This album is sheer camp wonder. That moment when LaBrie says 'astonishing' is as powerful as when Peter Gabriel said 'Jerusalem' at the end of Supper's Ready.

[Enigmachine]

Hey, why don't Dream Theater do something different for their next album, put some FEEL into it! Hell, it may even get someone to respect them!

How anyone can say this album doesn't have feel to it is beyond me.  There was variety in feel just in the first single!

Spot on there, I thought the green text = sarcasm was universally understood (especially as I've made it clear that I like the album a lot). Apparantly not. Unless dparrott's post wasn't aimed at me.

[rumborak]

The lack of heaviness on TA sorry doesn't bother me at all. I think it allowed JR to shine, because he is clearly much more home in the program music world than in the metal one.

[Kotowboy]

DT12 was pretty heavy too make up for it. In fact - seeing as how they were planning The Astonishing for two years - they might have deliberately made DT12 heavy .

[ariich]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

[theanalogkid7]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

I agree with you. While it think it's a slightly heavier album than, say, ADTOE, it's doesn't have the heaviness of TOT, SC, or even Awake.

[dparrott]

Hey, why don't Dream Theater do something different for their next album, put some FEEL into it! Hell, it may even get someone to respect them!

How anyone can say this album doesn't have feel to it is beyond me.  There was variety in feel just in the first single!

Spot on there, I thought the green text = sarcasm was universally understood (especially as I've made it clear that I like the album a lot). Apparantly not. Unless dparrott's post wasn't aimed at me.

No it wasn't.  I got the sarcasm, my point was about the mock criticism that DT doesn't put feeling into their music.

[Bertielee]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

No, no, I'm with you on this one, Ariich. I didn't find DT12 particularly heavy either.

B.Lee