*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[shadow1psc]

I can't understand people complaining The Astonishing isn't technical enough.

It's their THIRTEENTH album.

if you want technical Dream Theater - go and listen to any of the past TWELVE albums....

And even though it may not be their most technical album, I probably still couldn't play more than half of it on guitar

If anyone wants an idea of the technicality (that I thought was already very apparent), just go look at the Match the Master videos. I consider myself a good guitarist, and I can only jump in to two out of the ten provided riffs.

I've also always been of the mindset that complexity isn't always about the individual players either. Look at Pain of Salvation - some of their best and most complex sounding parts simply come from the juxtaposition they create between two simpler guitar parts. You get a lot of that on The Astonishing between JP and JR.

[CDrice]

My theory back when the video was posted is that Ravenskill is called that way because their people literally have skills at riding giant ravens.

I'm assuming it's just a cool-sounding place name JP came up with based on real places.  There are a lot of "kills" in the NY area and thereabouts -- it's a Dutch word for creek or river.

Yeah, my theory was not meant to be taken seriously. I also figured it was just for the cool factor. Although I didn't knew about the fact there was a lot ''kills'' in the area of New-York. And I also didn't knew what it meant. So thanks for the new knowledge 

[BlobVanDam]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made.

Never understood this opinion at all. ADTOE is the most stale rutty album DT have ever made imo, going through the motions to stay on their regular schedule (that's not to say it's bad, I mostly liked it, but I feel no excitement or energy in it, and it wore out quickly). The fun element disappeared when MP left, and finally returned with TA. This album is the first time in a while I've felt that energy and passion that I get from those older albums like SFAM. I can't wait to hear what they do when they return to a regular album format.

[shadow1psc]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made.

Never understood this opinion at all. ADTOE is the most stale rutty album DT have ever made imo, going through the motions to stay on their regular schedule (that's not to say it's bad, I mostly liked it, but I feel no excitement or energy in it, and it wore out quickly). The fun element disappeared when MP left, and finally returned with TA. This album is the first time in a while I've felt that energy and passion that I get from say SFAM. I can't wait to hear what they do when they return to a regular album format.

I don't know how you listen to LNF, BitS, Outcry and BAI and not feel the energy and fun. I would understand people saying DT12 is stale and rutty (something about the dark production), but ADToE had the spark for me, and clearly for the band.

[pantsofeternity]

My theory back when the video was posted is that Ravenskill is called that way because their people literally have skills at riding giant ravens.

I'm assuming it's just a cool-sounding place name JP came up with based on real places.  There are a lot of "kills" in the NY area and thereabouts -- it's a Dutch word for creek or river.

Yeah, my theory was not meant to be taken seriously. I also figured it was just for the cool factor. Although I didn't knew about the fact there was a lot ''kills'' in the area of New-York. And I also didn't knew what it meant. So thanks for the new knowledge 

Haha figured.  And yeah, there's Arthur Kill, Fresh Kills, Kill van Kull... the Schuylkill which runs through Philly, and a lot down in Delaware too, including the amazingly named Murderkill River.  * The More You Know *

[me7]

Speaking of the HD version, if anyone has the regular cd and the HD tracks, is there a significant difference?

No discernable difference at all. Same master as the CD, just additional frequencies above the threshold of human hearing.
The previous albums were volume gained during CD production which caused some clipping. This time around, the waveforms look exactly alike and my A/B/X attempt proved fruitless.

[ResultsMayVary]

The FLAC version of the album sounds killer. I was considering spending some money on the HDtracks version, but with the FLAC sounding as good as it does, I'm pretty happy with that.

[Progmetty]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made. DT12 felt like an attempt to buckle down and make something cohesive (Illumination Theory not withstanding) that could come across as their most radio safe record as a whole. The Astonishing completely surpassed all expectations set by the current lineup IMO. Nothing safe, standard or ordinary about this album.

100% agree on all that.
Not a minority at all, ADToE is a DT at what they do best, every song was amazing in it's own way and it aged real well, I think it's the best post-6 Degrees album, not including The Astonishing cause it's still too early to say that IMO.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel like the DT 'rut' was most apparent during BCSL. I'm probably of the minority who thinks that ADToE was a feeling of revitalization in the DT camp. Did they play it a bit safe? Maybe, but I felt the fun and enjoyment in the music they made.

Never understood this opinion at all. ADTOE is the most stale rutty album DT have ever made imo, going through the motions to stay on their regular schedule (that's not to say it's bad, I mostly liked it, but I feel no excitement or energy in it, and it wore out quickly). The fun element disappeared when MP left, and finally returned with TA. This album is the first time in a while I've felt that energy and passion that I get from say SFAM. I can't wait to hear what they do when they return to a regular album format.

I don't know how you listen to LNF, BitS, Outcry and BAI and not feel the energy and fun. I would understand people saying DT12 is stale and rutty (something about the dark production), but ADToE had the spark for me, and clearly for the band.

LNF and BITS are the most energetic of the album, but Outcry and BAI felt pretty by the numbers to me, and I don't think that highly of either of them. It all still felt lacking to me compared to previous albums though.
After the previous two albums, my expectations for this one were at an all time low for DT, but this album really surprised me and renewed my interest.

[CDrice]

I've also always been of the mindset that complexity isn't always about the individual players either. Look at Pain of Salvation - some of their best and most complex sounding parts simply come from the juxtaposition they create between two simpler guitar parts. You get a lot of that on The Astonishing between JP and JR.

I also agree with that. I would guess in term of soundscape it's probably the most complex album they've made. You have each indivual band member doing their thing, then you have an orchestra, choirs and more.

And some of the songs are also very dynamic in terms of structure. It reminds me a bit of When and Dream Unite where you have songs of more standard lenght, but don't necessarily follow a ''regular'' song structure. I'd say that also adds a level of complexity.

[Peace and Love]

I have read people complaining that this is album is musically too simple.

Let me just say 

I played along to A Life Left Behind on my piano last night and was marvelling at JP+JR's composition. For such a serene sounding, typical 6/8 ballad - they really pulled out all the stops. MULTIPLE modulations of key centre between verse and chorus, and multiple shifts of mood as well - all packed into one badass song.

[thosava]

Is The Astonishing generally considered a bad album by most fans? I was looking at this site:
https://www.sputnikmusic.com/bands/Dream-Theater/49/
and saw that it is so far rates as the second worst DT album, only ahead of WDADU. I come here and see 80-90 percent of people really liking it, and other places everyone seem to hate it...

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

People who are active in various internet forums/sites are not the majority of fans. Not by a long shot.

Even if DT12 is considered a 'mediocre' album by lots of internet fans, it was pretty well received live (where the whole scope of fandom is truly visible).

[BlobVanDam]

Is The Astonishing generally considered a bad album by most fans? I was looking at this site:
https://www.sputnikmusic.com/bands/Dream-Theater/49/
and saw that it is so far rates as the second worst DT album, only ahead of WDADU. I come here and see 80-90 percent of people really liking it, and other places everyone seem to hate it...

I do find that DTF generally rates the MM era albums higher than the general internet, however I'd largely put it down to people giving it one listen and dismissing it, unlike the more dedicated fans here who give an album a fairer chance to sink in.

I have read people complaining that this is album is musically too simple.

Let me just say 

I played along to A Life Left Behind on my piano last night and was marvelling at JP+JR's composition. For such a serene sounding, typical 6/8 ballad - they really pulled out all the stops. MULTIPLE modulations of key centre between verse and chorus, and multiple shifts of mood as well - all packed into one badass song.

I couldn't care less how simple or complex a piece of music is, I only care about how good it is. If you dislike great music like this because it's not 10+ minutes long with dueling solos in 13/8 in the middle, you're doing it wrong.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

It's hard for me to find time to sit down and listen to The Astonishing in full, and I still dont really know the album all that well. I feel like it's easy for me to break it down into several small chunks, like 3-5 songs at a time. Any suggestions on what would be good combinations ?

Personally, if I had to pick a favorite, standout section of the album, it would be the run of songs in Act I from Ravenskill through A New Beginning.  That is a good combo to get a good flavor for both the music and the story. 

To me, some of the "chunks" that I feel have good flow and I am beginning to gain the most familiarity are: 
-Act I, tracks 1-8 (yeah, I know that is a LONG stretch, but it makes logical sense in terms of story, and has a good pacing; to me, the pacing drops off a bit at Act of Faythe).
-Act I, tracks 14-19 (which is what I recommended above)
-Act II, tracks 1-5 (sets up the first half of Act II nicely and has really good flow)
-Act II, tracks 7-10 (these songs just feel right as one unit, and are unified by the action of the story)
-Act II, tracks 11-14 (as with the previous section, this section is very unified in terms of the action of the story; music-wise, it is less intense and doesn't feel as climactic as I would normally expect for the conclusion of an album. But it fits together well, so to respond to your question about logical "chunks," this one makes sense in terms of helping digest the story)

Okay, this seems nice. I'll try this and see it how it is. Thanks.

It's hard for me to find time to sit down and listen to The Astonishing in full, and I still dont really know the album all that well. I feel like it's easy for me to break it down into several small chunks, like 3-5 songs at a time. Any suggestions on what would be good combinations ?

This may seem like a joke, but break it up based on the NOMACS tracks. It works.

Oh wow, didn't think about this. This definitely works too. Thanks.

[Kotowboy]

I have read people complaining that this is album is musically too simple.

Let me just say 

I played along to A Life Left Behind on my piano last night and was marvelling at JP+JR's composition. For such a serene sounding, typical 6/8 ballad - they really pulled out all the stops. MULTIPLE modulations of key centre between verse and chorus, and multiple shifts of mood as well - all packed into one badass song.

I only care about songs. End of.

[ariich]

The best way to split the album up is in three parts, as myself and others have previously suggested. This means the first two parts (i.e. two halves of Act I) are around 40 mins each, and the third part is around 50 minutes but more like 45 mins if you don't bother with the final track (which in my opinion is unnecessary anyway).

[thosava]

I have a weird feeling today. I just hope i'm not in the mood for music, because i have absolutely no desire to listen to the album. I've only listened to it five times, and it was getting better every time. The fifth time i believe every track except the Nomac tracks gave me chills. I tried listening to it yesterday but i wasn't feeling it, so i turned it off halfway though. Today i just don't want to put it on. I don't understand it, because i absolutely love the album...

[Kotowboy]

I'm not going to over listen to this album because I did that with Dream Theater and I got sick of it really quickly.

[E.S.]

What came to mind when I saw the artwork...


Didn't care for the previous album, to be honest... but I enjoy this one a lot! Not trying to be "metal" for the sake of it, to fit in with what's cool or whatever kids like these days.

Get off my damn lawn!

[IdoSC]

Daryus ends up deaf, but he still is the Crown Prince, right? So that evil bastard is the future king of an Empire where music will rise again… and he's deaf? I don't really think he'll stick to Nafaryus' plan the future… trouble is coming

I highly doubt they're obliged to keep the father to son tradition as it has only been there for less than 300 years. Considering how Gabriel will marry the princess, Nafaryus owes his daughter's life to Gabriel, the people owe their freedom to Gabriel, Daryus defied his parents' orders, and he will be deaf in a more musical society than ever...

...I bet Nafaryus will pass the crown to either Gabriel or Faythe. Probably Faythe, considering how she's so determined to "be a voice for change to build a world that's fair and true so they can live the life they never knew" bla bla. Unless they plan a sequel. Which they probably don't.

[IdoSC]

I have a weird feeling today. I just hope i'm not in the mood for music, because i have absolutely no desire to listen to the album. I've only listened to it five times, and it was getting better every time. The fifth time i believe every track except the Nomac tracks gave me chills. I tried listening to it yesterday but i wasn't feeling it, so i turned it off halfway though. Today i just don't want to put it on. I don't understand it, because i absolutely love the album...

That's over 11 hours of music, you're probably just zoned out.

[thosava]

I have a weird feeling today. I just hope i'm not in the mood for music, because i have absolutely no desire to listen to the album. I've only listened to it five times, and it was getting better every time. The fifth time i believe every track except the Nomac tracks gave me chills. I tried listening to it yesterday but i wasn't feeling it, so i turned it off halfway though. Today i just don't want to put it on. I don't understand it, because i absolutely love the album...

That's over 11 hours of music, you're probably just zoned out.

I hope and believe that it's just this. I haven't had a desire to listen to anything else either. 11 hours of intense active listening in just three days might be too much for me 

[Progmetty]

I've listened to it in full everyday since it's came out and I have a feeling that's gonna go on for a while heh

[Podaar]

Me too. It keeps getting better and better.

I've got a ton of paperwork to do right now so I'm going to put it on again. 

[Chino]

I'm on listen number 8 or 9. Still really enjoying it.

[BlackInk]

I hope and believe that it's just this. I haven't had a desire to listen to anything else either.

I'm in one of those periods right now. Been going pretty strong for a few months now.

[ResultsMayVary]

I'm on listen number 8 or 9. Still really enjoying it.

I'm in the same boat as well, although I haven't had the time to sit through more than an Act at a time in the last two days because of work. 

[Shadow2222]

I'm on listen number 8 or 9. Still really enjoying it.

I'm in the same boat as well, although I haven't had the time to sit through more than an Act at a time in the last two days because of work. 

Yep, exactly this! I can't stop listening to it whenever I have an opportunity.

[thosava]

I hope and believe that it's just this. I haven't had a desire to listen to anything else either.

I'm in one of those periods right now. Been going pretty strong for a few months now.

Yeah i have a few of those periods in a year. Sometimes i might go a a couple of weeks without listening to a single song actively, but then when feel the desire again, i go all in  I might be tempted to skip around the album some, and not listen to it in full soon.

[dparrott]

I don't see how any DT fan could hate on Moment Of Betrayal.  Snare sound aside, and no it doesn't sound like Awake, but isn't songs like this why you listen to DT???  It is for me. 

Heh...yea...when I first saw Ravenskill I thought of the killing of ravens.

[YtseJamittaja]

Noob question but can somebody say which are each characters' themes/melodies? Faythe is quite obvious (Act of Faythe)  but others?

[lovethedrake]

I never found ADTOE to be uninspired but I honestly just don't think its very good. I know this is not popular opinion but outside of Breaking All Illusions I found it to be a bit bit rough on the ears. Not counting the beautiful ballads of course.   I found DT, the album, to be a nice return to form so I felt like the trend was good coming into The Astonishing.  However, I never in a million years thought they had it in them to make an album that rivaled their classics again so I am just so pleasantly shocked at how amazing The Astonishing is. 

The most shocking part of this album is JLB.   Where has he been for the past 15 years?   He sounds amazing on this album, nearly as good as he did on SDOIT.. maybe even as good.     

Is it possible that Portnoy was not allowing him to sing as flamboyantly and over the top?  Or perhaps it was the way they were producing the vocals?      James' soaring over the top vocals is what originally got me into DT so its nice to see him released from his cage on this album!   

I think this is the first album since SDOIT that doesn't sound like it was produced as a "metal" album which completely brought the magic back for me as I have always been more a fan of their progressive side.

[Architeuthis]

Bosk1,  sorry about starting that thread about the encores. I didn't think to check the live concert category. I didn't realize.. My bad!

[MirrorMask]

The most shocking part of this album is JLB.   Where has he been for the past 15 years?   He sounds amazing on this album, nearly as good as he did on SDOIT.. maybe even as good.     

On his solo albums. And as for me, he has always been there, in DT, solo or in anything that he has sung.

Is it possible that Portnoy was not allowing him to sing as flamboyantly and over the top?  Or perhaps it was the way they were producing the vocals?      James' soaring over the top vocals is what originally got me into DT so its nice to see him released from his cage on this album!   

Portnoy wanted him to sound like James Hetfield. Or well, the band wanted him to, considering unlikely that Portnoy held the others at gun point while they were writing Constant Motion, This Dying Soul and the likes.