*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[red barchetta]

DTF for many reasons isn't a good measuring stick. If you look at social media like Facebook or YouTube,  rating sites like Sputnik and RYM, and ticketing sites like Ticketmaster, there's one conclusion: TA wasn't well received, and DT is best advised moving on. To some degree I think they know that, I think the IAW tour is a direct acknowledgement of that.

Oh I have already said that (about FB and shows attendances)and my  comments were described as "laughable" to say the least. I salute you for daring sharing your opinion like that.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I guess I have a few thoughts on The Astonishing.

- Based on overall tour attendance and low ratings in certain corners of the internet, I think it's fair to say that The Astonishing had a mixed reception.

- Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the European and first American legs of the tour were relatively successful. Maybe attendance was a little down, but that's to be expected when you're only playing new stuff.

It seems like where things started to go off the rails a little was the second American leg. The decision to play so many shows in so many weird markets was a strange one, at least to me. Even if the band was doing greatest hit-type shows, would that leg have been a success? I don't know. It would have been tough, either way.

- While the album's ratings on some websites are bad, I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Prog Archives rates the album as being around the middle of the band's discography. Critical reception was actually very good. Most YouTube videos have a 90% like rating. Look, it doesn't have the same esteem as OK Computer or even Scenes from a Memory, but it's not Lulu either.

I guess my general point of view is that there are areas for concern in the Dream Theater world right now, but as long as the band learns from a few of the mistakes they've made along the way, all will be fine. I personally think that The Astonishing was one of their best albums, and can't wait to see it live in a few weeks.

[nikatapi]

I guess I have a few thoughts on The Astonishing.

- Based on overall tour attendance and low ratings in certain corners of the internet, I think it's fair to say that The Astonishing had a mixed reception.

- Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the European and first American legs of the tour were relatively successful. Maybe attendance was a little down, but that's to be expected when you're only playing new stuff.

It seems like where things started to go off the rails a little was the second American leg. The decision to play so many shows in so many weird markets was a strange one, at least to me. Even if the band was doing greatest hit-type shows, would that leg have been a success? I don't know. It would have been tough, either way.

- While the album's ratings on some websites are bad, I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Prog Archives rates the album as being around the middle of the band's discography. Critical reception was actually very good. Most YouTube videos have a 90% like rating. Look, it doesn't have the same esteem as OK Computer or even Scenes from a Memory, but it's not Lulu either.

I guess my general point of view is that there are areas for concern in the Dream Theater world right now, but as long as the band learns from a few of the mistakes they've made along the way, all will be fine. I personally think that The Astonishing was one of their best albums, and can't wait to see it live in a few weeks.

Some fair points made here. Personally i like the album, despite it's faults and i think it was such a daring move from the band to do a tour based solely on the album.

The mixed reaction is reasonable, since it's not the typical DT album, and maybe many fans were overhyped by the news of a double concept album and expected something very proggy and heavy.

I think the fault is that they overtoured the Astonishing show, which in a way is understandable given it is such a big production, but visiting markets twice with only new material being performed is not very easy to attract people.

Let's not kid ourselves, DT is a band with a huge catalog, and even if someone likes TA, going on a concert to see DT and pay a kind of expensive ticket, without hearing any of the older songs, is not an easy decision for many fans, hence the lower attendance.

I&W tour seems like damage control to be honest, just to reevaluate how big the fanbase is after the whole Astonishing period, and remind people that DT is still a prog metal band, not going to be a rock-opera act from now on. Which of course is great for the fans who will have the chance to see an amazing show and hearing old classics.

I also believe that the next album will be kind of back to the roots if you will, like ADTOE was at the time, but that's another discussion.

Still, i admire DT for having the balls to release something like The Astonishing, and tour exclusively playing the album live. It was a very risky move and showed that the band maintains its artistic integrity and not only trying to cater to fans' expectations.

[rumborak]

DTF for many reasons isn't a good measuring stick. If you look at social media like Facebook or YouTube,  rating sites like Sputnik and RYM, and ticketing sites like Ticketmaster, there's one conclusion: TA wasn't well received, and DT is best advised moving on. To some degree I think they know that, I think the IAW tour is a direct acknowledgement of that.

Oh I have already said that (about FB and shows attendances)and my  comments were described as "laughable" to say the least. I salute you for daring sharing your opinion like that.

Amazon reviews aren't all too different. It has one of the lowest "this is the best album ever, 5 stars!!" percentages of the DT discography, and outside the 5-star bar, the next higher percentage bar is actually 2 stars. iTunes is the same story.

[Logain Ablar]

Anyone seen this tweet from Jordan: https://twitter.com/Jcrudess/status/803222119752400896

Official announcement of The Astonishing, the book. https://www.vaultbooks.pub/store/p17/The_Astonishing.html

$75??? That's gotta be wrong..

[BlobVanDam]

That price looks about right when you look at the extras it comes with, but are they going to release a standard edition of the book that's cheaper? The novel only had niche appeal to begin with, and this is niche even within that niche.

[Skeever]

That price looks about right when you look at the extras it comes with, but are they going to release a standard edition of the book that's cheaper? The novel only had niche appeal to begin with, and this is niche even within that niche.

The facebook post makes it seem like this is the first press, period.

A little disappointed by that, honestly. I was hoping they'd do a novel that would stand on its own merits, rather than a novelty item.

[Logain Ablar]

I do love fantasy series, and Peter Orullian has been on my radar as an author worth checking out, but I'd be hesitant to buy a novelisation of TA. Definitely not at that price..

[RoeDent]

It's a huge shame that The Astonishing hasn't been as well received as it should be. It contains some of DT's most moving and beautiful music that they have ever written. And it's nice to see them embrace positivity and light over the last few albums after the incredibly dark and dismal SC & BC&SL (and other albums before it). The negative is not what DT do anymore; the post-Portnoy albums have proved that. It's kinda cool that they're still going ahead with things like the novel. No negative reception is gonna stop the DT train from rolling the way it wants to!

[ReaperKK]

In my eyes TA was an ambitious project for DT and I think they fell short. It's not a dark/light or negative/positive thing. It's just an album that DT made that didn't resonate with some fans.

[ariich]

That price looks about right when you look at the extras it comes with, but are they going to release a standard edition of the book that's cheaper? The novel only had niche appeal to begin with, and this is niche even within that niche.

The facebook post makes it seem like this is the first press, period.

A little disappointed by that, honestly. I was hoping they'd do a novel that would stand on its own merits, rather than a novelty item.

That would make no business sense at all. I just can't see them only selling this is a limited high-cost special edition, so I would expect a normal edition to follow on paperback & kindle. I have no inside knowledge at all by the way, but not doing a full release would be the dumbest idea.

[BlobVanDam]

That price looks about right when you look at the extras it comes with, but are they going to release a standard edition of the book that's cheaper? The novel only had niche appeal to begin with, and this is niche even within that niche.

The facebook post makes it seem like this is the first press, period.

A little disappointed by that, honestly. I was hoping they'd do a novel that would stand on its own merits, rather than a novelty item.

That would make no business sense at all. I just can't see them only selling this is a limited high-cost special edition, so I would expect a normal edition to follow on paperback & kindle. I have no inside knowledge at all by the way, but not doing a full release would be the dumbest idea.

This might be a test to gauge interest too. Since it has limited collector's appeal regardless, there will be fans who buy it, and the higher price may be to cover the initial cost. If it sells out quickly, that may justify the cost of a bigger run to the publisher.

[ariich]

A kindle release at least has so little cost that it would be insane not to do that. A paperback release would have production and distribution costs, so yeah I could see the rationale for a wait-and-see approach there.

[Skeever]

This book seems like it would fit neatly into the teen sci-fi genre that is so popular these days. So, yes, if it winds up being treated like a niche release for a niche fanbase, that's a huge missed opportunity to extend the popularity of the band IMO.

[Kotowboy]

£75 and only 2,500 copies being made.

2500 * 75 = $187,500 gross.

Wonder how much goes to the author, the publisher, the distributor, the agent, the manager before the band get their 10% or whatever is left...

[rumborak]

In my eyes TA was an ambitious project for DT and I think they fell short.

My main theory in that regard is that the scope of the project was just so vast that they stretched themselves too thin.
I must say, there's a danger this multilevel, multimedia novel falls into the same trap. The size of this thing already reads like a Lord of the Rings Collector Edition.

[Skeever]

I will say that DT did some interesting compositional things that I'd love to hear them revisit, just hopefully outside the context of a multimedia musical experience.

For instance, I hope they don't feel like they need to write a "musical" to justify softer ballads, interesting vocal parts and deliveries, and less traditionally structured songs. Hope they return to some of these ideas with a less "out there" lyrical concept.

[Ben_Jamin]

Sounds cool. Maybe we'll get to see the other places on the map. How those places fall into The Astonishing world, and the characters they'll introduce. Maybe they're the shadow figures from the video screens when they travel.

[bosk1]

I don't know what DT were planning, but I think after playing to 10 rows of fans in several venues, they said "We're hemorrhaging money, we need to bring back the fans. IAW 25th is coming up, let's tour on that."

  I can guarantee that that wasn't the conversation.

[ariich]

In my eyes TA was an ambitious project for DT and I think they fell short.

My main theory in that regard is that the scope of the project was just so vast that they stretched themselves too thin.
I must say, there's a danger this multilevel, multimedia novel falls into the same trap. The size of this thing already reads like a Lord of the Rings Collector Edition.

There's certainly potential for a novelisation to be very good. I sort of agree that all the world-building was a bit too big in scope for the actual album which really only ended up covering the character story. So there should be plenty of scope to cover much more ground and produce something much deeper, narratively, and from what the author has said it sounds like JP is very open to that.

So it all depends on the execution. It could turn out incredibly corny.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I don't know what DT were planning, but I think after playing to 10 rows of fans in several venues, they said "We're hemorrhaging money, we need to bring back the fans. IAW 25th is coming up, let's tour on that."

  I can guarantee that that wasn't the conversation.

I must say that there have been comments with regard to some of DT's recent moves, and I'm guilty of this as well, that basically give the band zero benefit of the doubt. If The Astonishing tour was literally bankrupting them, they'd probably stop it. Petrucci and co. have been doing this crap for three decades. They know what they're doing.

[gzarruk]

In my eyes TA was an ambitious project for DT and I think they fell short.

My main theory in that regard is that the scope of the project was just so vast that they stretched themselves too thin.
I must say, there's a danger this multilevel, multimedia novel falls into the same trap. The size of this thing already reads like a Lord of the Rings Collector Edition.

There's certainly potential for a novelisation to be very good. I sort of agree that all the world-building was a bit too big in scope for the actual album which really only ended up covering the character story. So there should be plenty of scope to cover much more ground and produce something much deeper, narratively, and from what the author has said it sounds like JP is very open to that.

So it all depends on the execution. It could turn out incredibly corny.

I know this isn't what we're talking about now, but, seeing if JP lets the author come up with his own ideas for the rest of the novel and extra details that weren't present on the album makes me wonder if he would be open to future lyric collaborations from people outside of DT for future songs/albums. I always thought they could ask Neil Peart to write lyrics for a DT song someday 

[jsbru]

The concert I went to was basically sold out.  But that was on the first leg.  The problem with the second time around is that they already played in most of these areas.  Even if some are different cities, a lot of people traveled to see them during the first leg because they had no idea they'd be playing closer on the second leg.

[SwedishGoose]

So glad that I got to see it twice... my favorite DT album and show after beeing a fan for close to 25 years

[MirrorMask]

For instance, I hope they don't feel like they need to write a "musical" to justify softer ballads, interesting vocal parts and deliveries, and less traditionally structured songs. Hope they return to some of these ideas with a less "out there" lyrical concept.

THIS. A thousand times this.

I want them to write a 2 minutes complete song or stick a jazz outro at the end of a song because they feel like it, not because a previously planned story demands it.

[As I Am]

Quite simply, The Astonishing was a bust! NOT of "major" proportions, but when all is said and done, the album and tour was rather weak. Now, I "like" the album for what it is (although it falls well in the bottom 3 for me in their discography), but I expect a LOT more from Dream Theater. I do give them their due for following their muse and allowing JP & JR to "run" with this album. Hopefully for them, the I & W tour is a success and the next album (for me anyway) is in the vein of Train of Thought....maybe NOT as dark, but just as progressively heavy!!!

[bosk1]

Quite simply, The Astonishing was a bust!

Not by any realistic standard.  Sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

[red barchetta]

I think that if we could have the numbers of album sales and show attendances, we could compare more. I believe that it looks like a minus in the Mangini era (nothing to do with MM).  As for just general public opinions. it has divided their fan base more than ever before about liking the album or not. But all in all, the fan base is still about the same though for instance, I know a few guys, some are my friends, who went to the concert and they really did not like it and I'm not sure if they will ever go again.  But I also know that new people went for their first time to see DT, especially the guys taking out their girlfriend. 

If the next album is more heavy or more prog, fans will be back.

[Jester]

I will just say I highly doubt that I will be buying this novel.  Getting an author is definitely needed, but the core story did little for me.

[TAC]

Quite simply, The Astonishing was a bust!

Not by any realistic standard.  Sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

Between the bitching and linking of JLB performances, to a new negative thread about the novel, to comments about how unpopular the albums is, it's all just really tiring. While I understand it's critiques, personally I like the album, but there seems to be a handful of folks here that just can't get past it for some reason.

At this point, EVERY album seems to divide the fans. Discussion is one thing, but there's a constant "nagging" going on. I mean I read one theory that they are playing I&W instead of TA because TA is not going over well. Yikes. C'mon ! Let it go folks, and maybe you'll like the next album. Meanwhile TA is almost a year old and the repointing out of every wart it has is just plain exhausting.

[Prog Snob]

This is coming from someone who sometimes thrives on cynicism. It does begin to get exceedingly dull and predictable after a while. Every little thing is critiqued but I think it's more for self-righteous condemnation and sometimes plain old misery...

And before they chime in with their "I'm not allowed to criticize something?" defense, that isn't what I'm saying. After a while it just sounds like the same tired complaints as if nothing makes them happy. They know who they are.

[red barchetta]

Well I don't judge you. I'm entitle to point out remarks. I do it with the kindest approach I  can. I know that you can carry a gun in the States but you can't criticize DT here. If my comments sounds bad, I try to balance them with the positive side. Sorry but you're making a fixation about me or anyone who dare to express what bugs him about something.

I'm an alltime huge Rush fan but sometimes they made me wonder what the heck they were doing and believe me I have said so on their forums. If some people can say a dozen of times they liked TA, I can question the success of that album or tour just like anyone.

And the way you judge people is quite a shame.

[Ben_Jamin]

If The Astonishing tour had a lot of shows cancelled, then maybe I'd say something. The 2ND leg failed because of the vast amount of East Coast dates that aren't far from each other.

But I don't think it failed.

[gzarruk]

Actually, both the album and the tour did very well. The only bad choice, imo, was the second US tour being so close to the previous one, it almost makes no sense. But even that is a management/promoters decision, not a band's decision, so we can't blame any of them for it, it was just a bad move by the management, they should've toured Asia first, but none of us really know all the decicions and aspects they had to consider bts, it's not that easy to plan a tour and make it happen flawlessly.

About the album itself, I just don't get people talking crap about it. I love the album and have it on my top 3, but this is a personal opinion and that's fine. The problem is when people start calling it crap or a failure instead of just saying "I didn't like it". Lots of times, people mistake personal opinion with saying whatever they want, and that's awful.

[RoeDent]

The problem is when people start calling it crap or a failure instead of just saying "I didn't like it". Lots of times, people mistake personal opinion with saying whatever they want, and that's awful.

This. 100% completely and utterly THIS! I wish people would get it into their heads that the artists are NOT at fault when they make an album that doesn't appeal to your personal tastes. "This album sucks" or words to that effect imply that anyone who enjoys the album, thinks it's one of the best things they've ever made, is completely wrong to have that opinion. "I didn't like it" makes room for those that DO like it.

(Apologies for going slightly chaossystem on you all, but this really grinds my gears about music fans.)