*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[ariich]

I only recently realized a highly ironic thing - my favorite song from the album, A New Beginning, has to be the least relevant song to the actual story. I'm not sure what it added to the album lyrically.

That one adds quite a lot, I would say. It's the point at which Faythe convinces Nafaryus to give Gabriel a chance, and does quite a bit to open up Nafaryus' character with the revelation that as a young man he liked to listen to music as well. I mean, the song could be shorter as more than half of it is instrumental and solos, but I don't imagine many fans would want to get rid of that stuff. If anything, it's Road to Revolution that doesn't really add much else.

For the record, I don't think the pacing is perfect, particularly towards the end. I somewhat agree that Losing Faythe and Whispers in the Wind could have been combined.

And I definitely think than Our New World and the title track could have been covered off in one song. They basically say the same thing. The title track is the only one I see as being pretty unnecessary, both musically and narratively. But what with it being at the end, it's easy enough to just not bother with.

[Vlasto]

Production  and sound on TA as I hear and feel it :

Pianos. Keys, violins – 4/5
Voices – 4/5
Acoustic guitars - 4/5
Electric guitars – 3/5
Kick drums – 4/5
Snare /toms  - 3.5/5
Toms  - 3/5
Cymbals - 2.5/5
Bass guitars -2/5

overall sound  - 3/5

[Kotowboy]

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera.

Yeah like Bill Hicks fans who say " you just don't understand him " when you say Bill Hicks wasn't funny.

[erwinrafael]

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera. It's different. Moving along....

The point rumby and others are making is that over two hours was not warranted to tell this story. Just because all of the lyrics are telling story doesn't mean it was all necessary, and couldn't have been told much more concisely and effectively. It's arguable it wasn't all that effective as it was, given there were parts of the story that weren't understood even from the lyrics, and required further explanation on the official site. It is still possible to have filler in a story, and it is still possible to have musical filler. Being a rock opera doesn't negate these criticisms, nor does debating the semantics of what constitutes "filler" or not. It's like with a movie. Just because a scene may have had a purpose, doesn't mean it's essential, which is why they can trim them down for the story and pacing to work more effectively as a whole unit.

Of course, I am not saying that "rock opera" shields it from criticism. What I am saying is criticize it AS A ROCK OPERA that is written as something to be performed on stage.

Look at the context of the quote I was reacting to. The criticism is that JP tried to do too much for the songs to advance the plot. It said in actual musicals, a lot of the action are left out and are rather done through spoken dialogue. But that is not true. Most operas, and a lot of musicals, do not have spoken dialogue. For the more popular ones among musicals, that would include Les Miserables, Cats, Jesus Christ Superstar, Miss Saigon, etc. JP and JR wrote this as a sung through rock musical. Now judge it as such. It is only fair for the artists for their work to be judged based on what is the actual product that they are presenting. To wish that this be cut down to 1CD or for the songs not to have all the plot advancement is to wish that TA is not a sung through rock musical.

[BlobVanDam]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

[noxon]

I believe that's exactly what they did - what they wanted, I mean

[BlobVanDam]

I believe that's exactly what they did - what they wanted, I mean

And you thoroughly missed the point.

[serrano]

It's ok to bash it for being longer than needed, even if i don't agree at all. If you don't like it, you just don't like it. It's not like, come on it's a rock opera and so it doesn't matter if it drags for me...

That being said, i don't think it drags at any point, let's see if i have the same opinion in a couple of years.

[erwinrafael]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

[emtee]

I spun it twice this weekend on my high end home system and holy crap what a ride!

Honestly it just keeps getting better and better.

[serrano]

Since i have little kids at home i am looking for a reasong for a long car drive. It's just almost imposible to find 2h+ to listen in calm.

[BlobVanDam]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

[Prog Snob]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

The more Dream Theater music the better is how I look at it. However, I definitely agree that it could have been done in one CD and still got the point of the story across. Metropolis 2 anybody? 

[serrano]

The good thing about being too long rather than too short, is that you can cut it down the way you prefer it (or skip).

[cramx3]

I don't see how this could be on one CD, but I think some trimming could have helped the album overall.

[erwinrafael]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

All I wanted was a basic level of respect for what the band was presenting to us. They wanted to present to us a sung through rock opera. Respect that that is the product that they are offering us. It is written as such. Criticize it as such.

[erwinrafael]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

The more Dream Theater music the better is how I look at it. However, I definitely agree that it could have been done in one CD and still got the point of the story across. Metropolis 2 anybody?

Will SFAM work as a live on-stage musical, though?

[BlobVanDam]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

All I wanted was a basic level of respect for what the band was presenting to us. They wanted to present to us a sung through rock opera. Respect that that is the product that they are offering us. It is written as such. Criticize it as such.

I could make a drinking game out of this canned response. I give up.

[Prog Snob]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

Well, DT did do what they want. They wanted to write a sung through rock opera.

And that's another who missed the point entirely. That had nothing to do with my point about a certain criticism of the album, at least not at all in the way you decided to take it instead. All I wanted was some basic level of respect for opposing viewpoints.

The more Dream Theater music the better is how I look at it. However, I definitely agree that it could have been done in one CD and still got the point of the story across. Metropolis 2 anybody?

Will SFAM work as a live on-stage musical, though?

It could easily be extrapolated and transposed as such.

[Kotowboy]

This discussion is nearly on page 58


NuggETZ

[serrano]

This discussion is nearly on page 58


NuggETZ

You move in circles.

[erwinrafael]

I only recently realized a highly ironic thing - my favorite song from the album, A New Beginning, has to be the least relevant song to the actual story. I'm not sure what it added to the album lyrically.

That one adds quite a lot, I would say. It's the point at which Faythe convinces Nafaryus to give Gabriel a chance, and does quite a bit to open up Nafaryus' character with the revelation that as a young man he liked to listen to music as well. I mean, the song could be shorter as more than half of it is instrumental and solos, but I don't imagine many fans would want to get rid of that stuff. If anything, it's Road to Revolution that doesn't really add much else.

For the record, I don't think the pacing is perfect, particularly towards the end. I somewhat agree that Losing Faythe and Whispers in the Wind could have been combined.

And I definitely think than Our New World and the title track could have been covered off in one song. They basically say the same thing. The title track is the only one I see as being pretty unnecessary, both musically and narratively. But what with it being at the end, it's easy enough to just not bother with.

Road to Revolution has an important narrative point, Faythe informing Gabriel that Nafaryus agreed to meet him at Heaven's Cove. Like Astonishing, it can also feel extraneous, but if you imagine a live stage musical, these are the songs where all the main characters are coming out one by one not so much to forward the story, but to sort of receive the applause of the audience to close out the Act.

[BelichickFan]

I have a huge problem saying it could have been one CD as about 1/3 of it would have had to be cut and I like the whole thing a lot.  Why cut good stuff ?

I have 3 very minor criticisms :

1) I do love John's solos, really wish they had a few more like the one at the end of A New Beginning.
2) The song Astonishing is so good I wish they had extended it to about 10 minutes.
3) (trivial) It would have been great to have the last word be Astonishing instead of Again.  They could have tweaked the melody to end on Astonishing or to repeat Astonishing.  Would have loved it to end on that word.

[kaos2900]

Finally heard disc 2 and I'm still blown away. Going to focus on disc 2 this week and then give a couple spins straight through. I'll say that I've removed all of the Nomac tracks except for the opening track as I didn't like how it disrupted the flow of the music. From a ranking stand point this is at least top 3 and may even top SFAM but I want more time before trying to rank it.

[kaos2900]

Also, does anyone else think that Our New World would have fit perfectly on FII?

[Chino]

Also, does anyone else think that Our New World would have fit perfectly on FII?

Definitely.

[BlobVanDam]

Also, does anyone else think that Our New World would have fit perfectly on FII?

I get more of a SDOIT vibe from it (disc 2 specifically).

[Enigmachine]

It all still reads like "you can't criticize it because you're judging it wrong". I call BS.

I don't see how wishing it was one CD is a problem. It has nothing to do with not being sung through, it just calls for a shorter story. Or you know, DT can do what they want instead of following a set formula for the sake of semantical classification.

I get what you are saying, Blob. Early Rock Operas like Tommy, The Wall and JCSS would be able to fit on one modern CD and tell their stories in a well paced and full way. Still, for me I want as much DT material as possible so I don't really mind, but I can see why some would want a more focussed and trimmed album as Rock Operas don't have to be 2 hours long.

The good thing about being too long rather than too short, is that you can cut it down the way you prefer it (or skip).

This is worth noting. If it is trimmed down, some songs that people could like would be cut off, like when you sometimes listen to bonus tracks and think "Why did they cut this?". The band may have a different idea of what is neccesary than many listeners. For example, if TA was cut down, but with a significant amount cut from Act I (like 30 mins) then Act II was kept as is, I doubt people like Blob (who really like Act I and aren't so keen on Act II) will be happy.

[ariich]

I only recently realized a highly ironic thing - my favorite song from the album, A New Beginning, has to be the least relevant song to the actual story. I'm not sure what it added to the album lyrically.

That one adds quite a lot, I would say. It's the point at which Faythe convinces Nafaryus to give Gabriel a chance, and does quite a bit to open up Nafaryus' character with the revelation that as a young man he liked to listen to music as well. I mean, the song could be shorter as more than half of it is instrumental and solos, but I don't imagine many fans would want to get rid of that stuff. If anything, it's Road to Revolution that doesn't really add much else.

For the record, I don't think the pacing is perfect, particularly towards the end. I somewhat agree that Losing Faythe and Whispers in the Wind could have been combined.

And I definitely think than Our New World and the title track could have been covered off in one song. They basically say the same thing. The title track is the only one I see as being pretty unnecessary, both musically and narratively. But what with it being at the end, it's easy enough to just not bother with.

Road to Revolution has an important narrative point, Faythe informing Gabriel that Nafaryus agreed to meet him at Heaven's Cove. Like Astonishing, it can also feel extraneous, but if you imagine a live stage musical, these are the songs where all the main characters are coming out one by one not so much to forward the story, but to sort of receive the applause of the audience to close out the Act.

Yeah I still  wouldn't call it filler, though that probably could have happened at the end of ANB while JP was noodling away.

[BlobVanDam]

This is worth noting. If it is trimmed down, some songs that people could like would be cut off, like when you sometimes listen to bonus tracks and think "Why did they cut this?". The band may have a different idea of what is neccesary than many listeners. For example, if TA was cut down, but with a significant amount cut from Act I (like 30 mins) then Act II was kept as is, I doubt people like Blob (who really like Act I and aren't so keen on Act II) will be happy.

Under normal circumstances of being unconnected tracks that would be fine, but being a rock opera with one long narrative, it feels like an all or nothing affair. I'd be missing half of the story, but whether or not I enjoy listening to it obviously comes first. I've never felt right segmenting SFAM or SDOIT either, but luckily I love every minute of those anyway, so I always experience those as a whole.
Since some people keep repeating to judge it as a rock opera, that's how I'll judge it. And as a whole rock opera, it's not one I want to hear as "intended". You don't watch half a rock opera, right? And me cutting it down myself isn't the same as it being written to be more concise to begin with. I totally get your point, but for me it isn't quite the same thing.

That said, I want to point out that I think the first 10 tracks is DT's longest and strongest run of music in a looong time. If I cut the album down to an hour, it would easily be up there with many of the MP era albums, but the rest waters it down to one of their weaker imo. This is a case of less is more for me. I wish I loved the whole thing as much as I love the start of the album.

[Kyo]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

Oh, definitely. Until a few weeks ago I was still using it as an example of "modern heavy DT". It was only once I heard the non-brickwalled HDtracks master that I realized most of the album isn't particularly heavy and it's just the strangely one-dimensional sound with the guitar being so prominent that makes it seem that way. The HDtracks version is a big improvement in that respect. Suddenly The Looking Glass does sound like a Rush tune and not like a Roadrunner metal band playing a Rush tune.

[Enigmachine]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

Oh, definitely. Until a few weeks ago I was still using it as an example of "modern heavy DT". It was only once I heard the non-brickwalled HDtracks master that I realized most of the album isn't particularly heavy and it's just the strangely one-dimensional sound with the guitar being so prominent that makes it seem that way. The HDtracks version is a big improvement in that respect. Suddenly The Looking Glass does sound like a Rush tune and not like a Roadrunner metal band playing a Rush tune.

I guess this shows how much mastering can change the character of the album, though I still believe that musically, FAS, TEI and EM are some of DT's heaviest stuff.

[MirrorMask]

2) The song Astonishing is so good I wish they had extended it to about 10 minutes.

I love the song, but I think it serves it purpouse just fine. All the characters gets their closure:

- Arhys' spirit talks to Gabriel and Faythe who will take care of Xander
- Xander vows to make his father proud
- Gabriel says "Whoah, dude, I had doubts about it but I really rock"
- Faythe says "I will make the world a better place"
- Nafaruys says "Sorry guys, been kinda a dick, I will change"
- Arabelle says "Daryus you're an idiot but now you're deaf so nevermind, we forgive you"

So every character gets his final say, and then the ensemble sings the end. As great the song is, I wouldn't have liked it to be stretched just because "it's the final song we have to make it a long epic".

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Moment of Betrayal just came up on my Paul Gilbert station on Slacker.  Not bad.

[ariich]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

Oh, definitely. Until a few weeks ago I was still using it as an example of "modern heavy DT". It was only once I heard the non-brickwalled HDtracks master that I realized most of the album isn't particularly heavy and it's just the strangely one-dimensional sound with the guitar being so prominent that makes it seem that way. The HDtracks version is a big improvement in that respect. Suddenly The Looking Glass does sound like a Rush tune and not like a Roadrunner metal band playing a Rush tune.

I guess this shows how much mastering can change the character of the album, though I still believe that musically, FAS, TEI and EM are some of DT's heaviest stuff.

TEI, sure, and I'd add parts of IT. And maybe at a stretch FAS is kinda heavy, but in a slightly cheesy power-metal sort of way.

EM I just don't think is heavy at all really; or rather, no more so than DT is normally. It's fun and quirky.