*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[pcs90]

I easily prefer TA's snare sound to IW's. Even though TA's is mechanical at times, it does at least sound like a real snare drum.

[KevShmev]

Well, I will admit that the middle of Act 2 is kind of a black hole for me (tracks 6-10 are all ones I am skipping already)...

You're skipping the album's climax?!

And how can you expect songs to be "memorable" if you don't actually listen to them?

I have listened to them; quite a few times, actually. Perhaps a better way to say is that when I am pressed for time, none of them are go-to songs for me, but if I let the album just play, I'll usually let them play. 

One thing I don't understand - why do people seem to think that piano intros = ballads?

Thank you!  Some talk like half the album is ballads, which is a crock of shit.  Quite a few songs have dynamic shifts between mellow and rocking, and I guess to some that makes it a ballad.

[BlobVanDam]

For those who keep on insisting that the snare has no dynamics. Listen to Losing Faythe. Intently. Hear the ghost notes, in particular. Note the volume of the snare. Then listen to Moment of Betrayal afterwards. Then listen to A New Beginning. If you can still say that the snare played at the same volume in these three songs, then maybe it's just me.

It's a big improvement over DT12, and the snare definitely does have some dynamics this time with a lot of ghost notes audible (even when the heavy riff of Three Days kicks in you can hear the dynamics on the snare), but there's definite room for improvement too.
It's still like every hit above 50% sounds identical, and I don't know if it's that drum sound, but even the softer hits don't have a lot of variety in tone, and that detuned sound doesn't cut through well with the rest of the band. It needs that sharp snap. Check out the start of A New Beginning where MM is doing that march sort of snare pattern. You can hear the dynamics, but it's not as wide as it feels it should be, and there's not a lot of variety in the tone as you'd expect from a typical natural snare.

I suspect that most of the people who don't like this album are the younger metal guys.  With any luck, their tastes will mature with age and they will come to appreciate this magnum opus for what it is: sitting at the top of the heap, alongside the previously sacrosanct SFAM.

This is wrong on multiple levels.

[FlashCE]

Many of you seem to know so much about music production. Ever considered a career in it?

[erwinrafael]

For those who keep on insisting that the snare has no dynamics. Listen to Losing Faythe. Intently. Hear the ghost notes, in particular. Note the volume of the snare. Then listen to Moment of Betrayal afterwards. Then listen to A New Beginning. If you can still say that the snare played at the same volume in these three songs, then maybe it's just me.

It's a big improvement over DT12, and the snare definitely does have some dynamics this time with a lot of ghost notes audible (even when the heavy riff of Three Days kicks in you can hear the dynamics on the snare), but there's definite room for improvement too.
It's still like every hit above 50% sounds identical, and I don't know if it's that drum sound, but even the softer hits don't have a lot of variety in tone, and that detuned sound doesn't cut through well with the rest of the band. It needs that sharp snap. Check out the start of A New Beginning where MM is doing that march sort of snare pattern. You can hear the dynamics, but it's not as wide as it feels it should be, and there's not a lot of variety in the tone as you'd expect from a typical natural snare.

Well, this I would agree with. It could be more dynamic. But there are dynamics and they can be clearly heard.

[Darkstarshades]

At the beginning of The walking shadow, when Xander sings his lines, I seriously tho he was just going to fucking kill Daryus there.

[NoseofNicko]

Why does LaBrie use a different voice/accent for Lord Nafaryus one time (such a foolish young man, doesn't seem to understand)? It's weird.

[Darkstarshades]

Why does LaBrie use a different voice/accent for Lord Nafaryus one time (such a foolish young man, doesn't seem to understand)? It's weird.

And "Saddest of IIiIis to watch how you fall..."

[Vandalism]

is there a place to find the lyrics (and who's talking) online?  or do you have to buy the CD?  Im listening on apple music. 

also, do people notice a big difference in sound on HD tracks?  (using good headphones or speakers).

Hey smegolas, have you been able to download the album on to your device from Apple Music. I am not able to do that for some reason.

Its strange coz they let me download Dystopia album on the release day itself!

[ariich]

Well, I will admit that the middle of Act 2 is kind of a black hole for me (tracks 6-10 are all ones I am skipping already)...

You're skipping the album's climax?!

And how can you expect songs to be "memorable" if you don't actually listen to them?

I have listened to them; quite a few times, actually. Perhaps a better way to say is that when I am pressed for time, none of them are go-to songs for me, but if I let the album just play, I'll usually let them play.

Yeah I get you, I was being a little facetious. I do the same if I just want to listen to a few songs, or half an album's worth, for whatever reason, I naturally gravitate to the ones that interest me most.

[Kotowboy]

Many of you seem to know so much about music production. Ever considered a career in it?

Yes.

[James Sucellus]

I for one love this album. I feel that Dream Theater remade the same damn album template over and over post-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, bar the straight metal album Train of Thought (which I find hard to stick with for all its runtime), to the point they became a very formulaic band, who would only create the odd classic like Count of Tuscany which kept me hooked, so it's great seeing them attempt something outside their comfort zone for the first time in a long while.

First listen it was overwhelming, but subsequent visits show just how much is going on here. The story is simplistic, the lyrics matter of fact and the pacing off, but damn the music is great, and James LaBrie has not been so nuanced a performer since Awake. For a while the other members had to carry him due to his voice problems, but here he is the MVP foundation of the thing and stands up to the task perfectly. Adore his singing here.

As with Awake (to my mind the band's finest album), this is too idiosyncratic and unexpected to grab everybody – especially as it isn't really a prog, or arguably even metal, album. It's a rock opera, and a highly listenable one at that. A flawed album for sure, but it's their best since Six Degrees and has entered my top five, along with Images and Words, Awake, Scenes from a Memory and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. I think it may just top Six Degrees, though my top three are unbeatable classics.

I think the much maligned 'music player' part is wonderful, by the way.

[Jinx]

Why does LaBrie use a different voice/accent for Lord Nafaryus one time (such a foolish young man, doesn't seem to understand)? It's weird.

And "Saddest of IIiIis to watch how you fall..."

I love that saddest of all bit during A New Beginning. I guess it's give it some feeling

[V_R11]

Why does LaBrie use a different voice/accent for Lord Nafaryus one time (such a foolish young man, doesn't seem to understand)? It's weird.

And "Saddest of IIiIis to watch how you fall..."

The "saddest of all..." part sounds really Muse-y to me

[SnakeEyes]

I've been thinking about this since my last post and I think the reason why I don't care for has to do more with the story.  With an album like this, it's not just the music, obviously.  It's a package deal.  I really hate to be one of those people to compare this to SFAM, but I have to here. 

With SFAM, the story just worked.  It was simple, but it worked.  I don't like the story of this album at all.  I just think it's kind of lame.  Again, not trying to be offensive to the band or anything, just my opinion.  So, if I think the story is lame, anything the music is doing is trying to heighten the story, which I already don't care for to begin with.  It's like watching a movie you don't like... you're probably not going to like the film score, either. 

[Bertielee]

I've been thinking about this since my last post and I think the reason why I don't care for has to do more with the story.  With an album like this, it's not just the music, obviously.  It's a package deal.  I really hate to be one of those people to compare this to SFAM, but I have to here. 

With SFAM, the story just worked.  It was simple, but it worked.  I don't like the story of this album at all.  I just think it's kind of lame.  Again, not trying to be offensive to the band or anything, just my opinion.  So, if I think the story is lame, anything the music is doing is trying to heighten the story, which I already don't care for to begin with.  It's like watching a movie you don't like... you're probably not going to like the film score, either.

I totally get what you mean. Really hard to feel the music when you don't feel the story. It's a shame though, because when you buy onto the story, listening to the album is really a rewarding experience.

B.Lee

[SnakeEyes]

Oh, and to add to my last post -- I think SFAM did a much better job of using the music to convey the story.  I think this is wayyy too long and kind of.... I don't know what else to say.... pompous.  It's kind of just long for the sake of being long.

edited....

I think SFAM could have been longer and this could have been shorter.  Let me put it like that.

[James Sucellus]

I don't think it's pompous at all. The lyrics/titles are very straightforward, there's a lightness of touch, the tracks are short, and there seems to be more Jesus Christ Superstar or Disney in it than prog snobbery or pseudo-intellectualism. It does have its flaws and Act II isn't as great as Act 1, but by DT standards it's easily in the top half of their discography. It isn't as good as SFAM, but I never expected it to be.

Surprised at all the hate for the final track. When LaBrie said 'astonishing' I marked out. It achieved the sort effect the climaxes of many recent DT 'epics' aspire for and fail to realise. Whenever I finish it, I immediately want to start the album again.

[SnakeEyes]

I mean pompous, overall.  It's a TWO HOUR concept album.  It's a monster of an album.  I don't think this particular story warrants a two hour concept album.  I don't mind listening to a concept album this long if the plot is interesting, this just doesn't do it.  Not being argumentative, just explaining what I meant by pompous.

[James Sucellus]

I think Act 1 flows pretty much perfectly, whilst the second lags a bit after Heaven's Cove and recovers momentum with Hymn of a Thousand Voices. There are DT albums half the length of this one that I think are more pompous. Hell, there are individual DT songs I think are more pompous than this album.

It isn't life changing like Images and Words or Awake, but it's highly enjoyable cheesy fun, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Enigmachine]

I don't think this particular story warrants a two hour concept album.

I actually think the story could've been elaborated on further by filling up the 2nd CD with showing story elements that were pushed aside like the NOMACS and the conflict between the militia and the empire. Maybe even 3 seperate albums to tell the story in over 200 mins in 3 discs with the first disk being Disk One as it is, the second elaborating on the NOMACS and RRM vs GNE and the third being Disk Two as it is with maybe some extra callbacks to the things added to the story.

[mc7]

I think Act 1 flows pretty much perfectly, whilst the second lags a bit after Heaven's Cove and recovers momentum with Hymn of a Thousand Voices. There are DT albums half the length of this one that I think are more pompous. Hell, there are individual DT songs I think are more pompous than this album.

It isn't life changing like Images and Words or Awake, but it's highly enjoyable cheesy fun, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Agreed - Act 1 flows extremely well and is the best of the two acts overall.

I find it interesting that many others feel the album lacks some traction in the middle of Act II, when it is during this period that the band let loose with their virtuosity and interplay, which seemed to have been a part of the album that most of us seemed to miss sorely.

For me, personally, the moment the albums loses some traction is during Losing Faythe and Whispers On The Wind.
Losing Faythe has the worst album moment - that awful crying (or laughing??) and the fact that it is the only symphonic moment that feels redundant and would have been better if it was acoustic only, as per the first half.
Whispers On The Wind is the only one I would consider filler and has the album's least memorable melody.

[RuRoRul]

For me, personally, the moment the albums loses some traction is during Losing Faythe and Whispers On The Wind.
Losing Faythe has the worst album moment - that awful crying (or laughing??) and the fact that it is the only symphonic moment that feels redundant and would have been better if it was acoustic only, as per the first half.
Whispers On The Wind is the only one I would consider filler and has the album's least memorable melody.

Agreed here. And that is one of my biggest problems with the albumwhen judging it as a story. It probably isn't helped by the fact I don't find Our New World or Astonishing particularly strong as climactic closers for the album, so the real drag after The Walking Shadow caused by spending a bit too long on Losing Faythe and  Whispers On The Wind doesn't even pay off.

[red barchetta]

This album is a big risk for the band.  For me, there is way too much ballads and no epic songs.  I have listened to it a few times, I don't feel amazed like I usually feel about their albums.  I won't buy it and certainly no go to the show.  It's gonna be a first for me.

[Kotowboy]

I'd rather the band take a risk once in a while than just churn out an 8 track 75 minute album with a 24 minute epic at the end every two years.

[KevShmev]

This album is a big risk for the band.  For me, there is way too much ballads and no epic songs.  I have listened to it a few times, I don't feel amazed like I usually feel about their albums.  I won't buy it and certainly no go to the show.  It's gonna be a first for me.

 

34 songs and only 5-7 I would call ballads.  That is too many?

[Virtualman64]

I think it's a masterpiece.Although it's alot to take in all at once.I finally heard it all the way through this week.It may replace SFAM as my favorite concept album.It seems to contain influences from every great concept album I've ever heard;2112,Tommy,Operation Mindcrime,etc.I also hear Yes,and Queen in places.

[James Sucellus]

For me, personally, the moment the albums loses some traction is during Losing Faythe and Whispers On The Wind.
Losing Faythe has the worst album moment - that awful crying (or laughing??) and the fact that it is the only symphonic moment that feels redundant and would have been better if it was acoustic only, as per the first half.
Whispers On The Wind is the only one I would consider filler and has the album's least memorable melody.

I like the 'Gaaaaaaaaaaabriel, myyyy son' stuff at the end of Losing Faythe.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, a week after listening to this album, I can safely say that I more or less got my head around it; I assume it will take weeks, if not months, to get all the little nuances and less obvious reoccuring themes, but now it's safe to say that....... I absolutely love the album whohooho!!!!

A monumental record, unlike anything they've ever done, they took a huge risk and it paid off. The whole experience of sitting down for 2 hours with the album is demanding but rewarding, it's a musical film (well, it's a rock opera after all, hehe) that has many wonderful moments. It's not that I love every second of it, at time it drags and I don't like all of the songs (for example, while I think the moment of Arhys' death is spot on, the climax of the story around Hymn of a Thousand Voices and Our New World hasn't strong enough songs), but the not-so-good things about this album are far outweighed by the very good things about it.

If I had to complain about anything, it would be the details: the packaging of the album (white credits on white background? booklet glued to the case with small lyrics in the most average and common font? come on!), and the scream at the end of My Last Farewell, is that supposed to pierce someone's eardrums? a bit underwhelming... but all in all this is a gorgeous record and I look forward very much to hear it live. I already know I'll be tearing up like a fountain at the end of Astonishing, the ending with the "People can you hear us" section.

Bravo DT, bravo!!!

[Rickharris1011]

One week in.  Still love it.
Like most albums from DT, any other band, or any musical I like certain tracks don't click with me enough to re-listen much. They work (For me) in the context of a whole and all have moments I enjoy, but not like other songs.  I created a playlist weeding out the NOMAC tracks and the 3 songs I don't really like (Begin Again, Whisper, Losing Faythe) - still have over 100 minutes!  Better than any album I've ever purchased!  Since life only allows me to listen to 2-5 songs at a time, it's an A+ for me. 

As I was writing this Heaven's cove kicked in with that riff of death at 2:30.  Fucking awesome!

[James Sucellus]

The pacing problems of Act 2 are why I can't bring myself to put it up there with I + W, Awake or SFAM, which lack any major flaws, but it's still such a listenable album and still the 'best of the rest' in terms of my rankings.

I'm hoping over time I'll come to view the middle of Act 2 as being on par with the rest of the album.

[mc7]

For me, personally, the moment the albums loses some traction is during Losing Faythe and Whispers On The Wind.
Losing Faythe has the worst album moment - that awful crying (or laughing??) and the fact that it is the only symphonic moment that feels redundant and would have been better if it was acoustic only, as per the first half.
Whispers On The Wind is the only one I would consider filler and has the album's least memorable melody.

I like the 'Gaaaaaaaaaaabriel, myyyy son' stuff at the end of Losing Faythe.

For me, personally, the moment the albums loses some traction is during Losing Faythe and Whispers On The Wind.
Losing Faythe has the worst album moment - that awful crying (or laughing??) and the fact that it is the only symphonic moment that feels redundant and would have been better if it was acoustic only, as per the first half.
Whispers On The Wind is the only one I would consider filler and has the album's least memorable melody.

I like the 'Gaaaaaaaaaaabriel, myyyy son' stuff at the end of Losing Faythe.

True, it is another fantastic symphonic moment on the album and I love to sing along to that section.
I think my criticism may be more directed at its placement on the album than the quality of the song itself.
I feel it slightly spoils the impact of the later symphonic tracks - Hymn Of A Thousand Voices and the Title Track, but that may be just me.
If there is one thing that Act II Part 1 did do very well was hold back on the epic symphonic closures of songs, intentionally saving them perfectly for the end, so having it re-appear on Losing Faythe is, for me, a little premature.
Maybe, when I finally receive my copy of the CD and I can follow the story through the lyrics it will make more sense to me.
When viewing the song based on its own merits though it's still pretty good....although I still stand by my opinion that the "crying" intro is the worst moment of the album, hands down!

[Rickharris1011]

Interesting thought:
I think the flow of act II  would have been better if Losing Faythe, Whispers and Hymn were all one song, or at least flow into each other like Walking and Last Farewell.  They have a similarity to them, and are really one conversation. I think that would make the climactic moment at Hymn stronger. 

[MirrorMask]

Whispers on the Wind is kinda superflous... I understand there has to be the "darkest moment", "we're all screwed" point in the story but it's kinda bland, it could have been just a somber verse tackled at the beginning of Hymn with Gabriel despairing, and then the song changing to a more uplifting tune.

[James Sucellus]

It would take more than truncation, I think. Act 2 begins and ends well, but there's something about the overall emphasis in the middle that isn't up to the incredible standard of the rest of the album. Even minor details like the oddly unimpressive 'deafening scream' bother me. Should have been a bigger moment.

The ending of Ravenskill slays me. It's the type of cheese only Dream Theater can get away with. Amazing.