Author Topic: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities  (Read 2369 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16487
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2016, 02:55:28 PM »
Hef's right, as is usually the case, but it's a shade more nuanced than that.  One, the First Amendment only protects against government censorship, which leaves the door open to private, de facto censorship.  Which leads to two, which is the growing "activism" crusade to crush financially what can't be stopped legally.    The stores that go out of business because it becomes public that they wouldn't decorate a cake that says "Trevor, Happy Birthday, and I love you, honey! Brad".

It's a slippery slope, I grant you, but while there are companies I will or won't do business with for various reasons, I refuse to organize and bully (and that's what it is) others into doing the same.  If you reach the same conclusion as I do, of your own accord, that's fine, but this idea of using social media to shame others into making financial decisions based on YOUR agenda is like I said above, bullying in it's own right. 

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2016, 08:32:53 PM »
This is confusing to me though. Libertarians always say "We can't legislate that the free market will sort it out" and then when the free market sorts it out, you call it bullying?

Boycotting companies whose practices you don't agree with is sorta fundamental to that idea.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Lucien

  • James 5:1-5
  • Posts: 4618
  • Gender: Male
    • my music
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2016, 10:32:34 PM »
Boycotting companies whose practices you don't agree with is sorta fundamental to that idea.

boycotting is meaningless, really. you can't force the millions upon millions of people who don't care what a company does, who just buy from them out of convenience, to stop buying from them in the hope that they'll change something. the people have very little power to influence because so little people think they actually can. sort of the same reason so few vote; they think it's meaningless, that their voice is not being heard.
"Kind of a stupid game, isn't it?" - Calvin

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2016, 11:11:37 PM »
But it has worked in the past, and more to the point, if it doesn't work then what is Stadler so worked up about?

To be clear, not saying a boycott of Verizon or something would work, but the local bigoted baker? Absolutely.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2016, 07:49:22 AM »
It's hard to draw the line, because it's difficult to know exactly when it's crossed.

I think you (a person) should be able to boycott whatever, and be free to educate others why you are doing so. But the minute you try to strong arm or buffalo people into doing what you do, and label and criticize those who chose to do differently...I have a BIG BIG BIG problem with that.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 16487
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2016, 07:55:45 AM »
But it has worked in the past, and more to the point, if it doesn't work then what is Stadler so worked up about?

To be clear, not saying a boycott of Verizon or something would work, but the local bigoted baker? Absolutely.

Well, you guys are dancing around my position on this.  I think it IS effective, I think it IS bullying, but I live with it because I believe that most people not "don't care" but rather see it for what it is.  BULLYING.   

Genowyn, I don't mind a person buying their conscience.  I do that too.   I can't name one off the top of my head, but there are companies I would choose to not do business with for whatever reason.  Where it translates into "bullying" is where I try to force my will on others.   When I stand in front of the store and "shame" those that have made the choice to shop there, whether it's because they agree with the store owner, because they don't care about the store owner, or because they are so desperate that they are willing to bite the bullet, but I shouldn't take away their choice, or change their choice so that they are doing it for the wrong reasons (and "your reason" isn't enough to keep it from being "the wrong reasons"). 

The process also gets corrupted.   It's one thing for me to go in, ask for a cake, have the baker say "No dice, faggot", and me decide to not shop there.  It's another thing entirely for someone who wants a cake from that baker for whatever reason to have to choose "do I wrongly get publicly labeled a bigot for even going into that store?"  What would your position be on that young girl who makes the impossible decision to have an abortion; do you think it's just and fair that she have to "perp walk" through the people carrying signs and calling her a "baby killer"? 

And it's still another thing entirely when the process gets used in inappropriate ways; for example, I don't get the raise I want from my boss and then organize a PR campaign and rally on social media to shame my boss into giving me something I clearly didn't deserve the first time, only to "save face". 

In short, I don't trust the boycotters.  I'm sure you think you're right 100% of the time, and on the "right side of history" as someone so arrogantly put it here a couple months ago (about the liberal platform) but life doesn't work that way.  There are nuances that protestors and political platforms can't possibly (Vanna, I'd like a "p" please) accommodate. 

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2016, 09:24:07 AM »
So do you think it was wrong when businesses who refused to serve black people were boycotted during the civil rights movement?

And I'm not aware of any examples of people mobbing around these sorts of places trying to shame people going in - that's always shitty -  but what, praytell, is the difference between a gay person telling their friends and family "Hey Jim Bob's Bakery wouldn't sell me a cake because I'm gay", them thinking, "That's fucked up, I won't shop there in the future," then going on and sharing the story with their friends and family and so on, until most people feel uncomfortable going to Jim Bob for a cake and Jim Bob goes out of business, and that same gay person says what happened in their Facebook status to the same effect? The speed at which the information is disseminated?

...my name is Araragi.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 21169
  • Gender: Male
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2016, 09:31:53 AM »
So do you think it was wrong when businesses who refused to serve black people were boycotted during the civil rights movement?

And I'm not aware of any examples of people mobbing around these sorts of places trying to shame people going in - that's always shitty -  but what, praytell, is the difference between a gay person telling their friends and family "Hey Jim Bob's Bakery wouldn't sell me a cake because I'm gay", them thinking, "That's fucked up, I won't shop there in the future," then going on and sharing the story with their friends and family and so on, until most people feel uncomfortable going to Jim Bob for a cake and Jim Bob goes out of business, and that same gay person says what happened in their Facebook status to the same effect? The speed at which the information is disseminated?

I think the difference is not with the speed information travels, but the distance. In the word of mouth scenario, the community members are the ones deciding what's right for their community and what isn't. With the Facebook example, you can have millions of people coming down on you from all over the country. What might be a misunderstanding within the community become the center of a nationwide debate.

There was a baker not too long ago that refused to make a gay wedding cake. However, he told the couple that his religion prevented him from endorsing the wedding cake, but he'd be willing to make anything else for them that they wanted. He'd make stuff for their wedding, it just couldn't be the cake (not really sure what the difference is, but whatevs). The nation wide debate made it sound like the owner said "Get out of here you homos. I don't need your money you fucking queers. Go find Jesus". 

Offline Genowyn

  • That name's pretty cool, and honestly, I'd like to change mine to it.
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5288
  • Gender: Male
  • But Hachikuji, I've told you over and over...
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2016, 09:43:31 AM »
I'm not really sure your example would make it better. I'd have just as many problems with a baker who refused to make a cake with a Star of David or Star and Crescent on it.

...my name is Araragi.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 40894
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: 40% of Millennials OK with limiting speech offensive to minorities
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2016, 12:26:23 PM »
Stadler, in both of your posts on this page, you mentioned social media in conjunction with the idea of boycotts.

Based on this, and other comments you have made here in the past regarding social media, is it really just social media you have a problem with?  After all, boycotts have been around much longer than social media.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.