Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That is true NOW, but I wouldn't say that was the case from the get-go.  WDADU...everything sounds bad, so you can't really single out the drums.  With I&W, I don't think he has a great drum sound, even aside from the triggered snare.  Awake is better, but still lacking.  But from then on, I agree.  I think Portnoy learned fairly early on how to capture a good drum sound, and has worked with guys at the production stage who get it as well, and he has benefitted from that.

Ah, yes. I was thinking more of his post-97 work.

Definitely, his early days seemed like a learning curve from him in terms of making drums sound good in a recording. From Falling Into Infinity onwards, the guy has sounded great in the grand majority of records he's played on (and those who I don't think are great sounding are due to a mix I don't like and not because of the drum sound per se). 

[chwik]

In MOB: a cool little string section behind the guitar between 5:22 - 5:27.

[pcs90]

A few thoughts on MM's sound and related discussions going on in this thread...

In my own personal opinion, MM's playing is far superior to MP's. The problem is the sound. If we could have MP's drum sound but with MM actually playing the drums, that'd be heaven. I don't think there is much of a debate, after hearing videos of MM playing without processing, that he isn't a super robotic player. Listen to the TEI video, or better yet his audition jam with the band. He has feel and dynamics.

As far as drum and cymbal companies sound different from one another, there is a lot of truth to that. I buy and sell used drum gear constantly and have owned well over 150 cymbals (mostly to sell). Zildjian, regardless of cymbal line, has an overall brighter sound than Sabian or Meinl (my preferred choice). This is because, I assume, Zildjian now machine-makes all their lines, even the top-of-the-line ones, while Sabian still hand hammers several cymbal lines. Hand hammering gives a fuller, darker, more complex sound. MM is, as far as I know, using mostly cymbals from the various Z and A series, which are the brightest. With drums, it's more about the heads, tuning and shell material than brand. The comment about the drummers' set-ups being different is also very relevant considering the size of their kits and the number of things that need to be heard.

To me, while I wish MM's cymbals were a bit louder on this album, they do seem more balanced, frequency-wise, whereas on DT12 and BTFW they were too bright for my taste. At the beginning of MoB, the cymbals themselves don't seem to sound weak to me...a bit quiet yes, but they have enough sustain. What's disappointing is since a lot of the detailed stuff MM does is on the cymbals, and they are usually mixed incorrectly, it's hard to really get a feel for the very creative stuff he is coming up with.

[mikeyd23]

My quick comment on the drum sound. The issue I've had with MM's cymbal sound in particular on most of his DT work isn't with the cymbals themselves, but with a lack of room sound. I feel like with more overhead mics in the final mix, the cymbals would sound more natural and full. In fact, the whole kit might sound more natural and full if they used more overhead/ambient sounds from mics. His drums usually end up sounding like a mix of gated super close mics and triggers.

That being said, from what I have heard so far, TA drum sound isn't anything spectacular but it's definitely good enough that I don't think it will distract from my enjoyment of the album at all.

[YouMakeMeSick]

That is true NOW, but I wouldn't say that was the case from the get-go.  WDADU...everything sounds bad, so you can't really single out the drums.  With I&W, I don't think he has a great drum sound, even aside from the triggered snare.  Awake is better, but still lacking.  But from then on, I agree.  I think Portnoy learned fairly early on how to capture a good drum sound, and has worked with guys at the production stage who get it as well, and he has benefitted from that.

Ah, yes. I was thinking more of his post-97 work.

Definitely, his early days seemed like a learning curve from him in terms of making drums sound good in a recording. From Falling Into Infinity onwards, the guy has sounded great in the grand majority of records he's played on (and those who I don't think are great sounding are due to a mix I don't like and not because of the drum sound per se).

I agree with MP's sound evolving with time. The Transatlantic "Kaleidoscope" drum sound is amazing IMO.

I also think MP and MM are different players, both with "heart" and "brains"; MP playing with more "heart" and MM playing with more "brains". I am a fan of what both bring to the band, even though a difference is noticeable.

[shadow1psc]

My quick comment on the drum sound. The issue I've had with MM's cymbal sound in particular on most of his DT work isn't with the cymbals themselves, but with a lack of room sound. I feel like with more overhead mics in the final mix, the cymbals would sound more natural and full. In fact, the whole kit might sound more natural and full if they used more overhead/ambient sounds from mics. His drums usually end up sounding like a mix of gated super close mics and triggers.

That being said, from what I have heard so far, TA drum sound isn't anything spectacular but it's definitely good enough that I don't think it will distract from my enjoyment of the album at all.

That second sentence is actually the problem - the more overheads you add into the mix, the harder it is to actually capture just the cymbals. Overheads are about capturing the room and even the individual drums as much as everything else. I think the problem is less about how many mics it takes, and just his kit in general. Cymbals directly in front of him (which are probably his go-to cymbals) are going to be out of the way the mics point in a traditional overhead mic setup.

It's hard to tell without actually seeing how the engineer set it up. At the end of the day, Mike's job is to come in and play the kit. The microphones, placement, mixing and producing of the drums are probably all out of his hands.

[jakepriest]

I agree with MP's sound evolving with time. The Transatlantic "Kaleidoscope" drum sound is amazing IMO.

Yeah. That has got to be Mike's best drum sound period. The toms, kick and snare all sound wonderful and work exceptionally well in the mix. 

[phospheneSOI]

Major thoughts after first listen of MoB

I wish the choir was in this song too.... this song would be so much better with choir.

[mikeyd23]

My quick comment on the drum sound. The issue I've had with MM's cymbal sound in particular on most of his DT work isn't with the cymbals themselves, but with a lack of room sound. I feel like with more overhead mics in the final mix, the cymbals would sound more natural and full. In fact, the whole kit might sound more natural and full if they used more overhead/ambient sounds from mics. His drums usually end up sounding like a mix of gated super close mics and triggers.

That being said, from what I have heard so far, TA drum sound isn't anything spectacular but it's definitely good enough that I don't think it will distract from my enjoyment of the album at all.

That second sentence is actually the problem - the more overheads you add into the mix, the harder it is to actually capture just the cymbals. Overheads are about capturing the room and even the individual drums as much as everything else. I think the problem is less about how many mics it takes, and just his kit in general. Cymbals directly in front of him (which are probably his go-to cymbals) are going to be out of the way the mics point in a traditional overhead mic setup.

It's hard to tell without actually seeing how the engineer set it up. At the end of the day, Mike's job is to come in and play the kit. The microphones, placement, mixing and producing of the drums are probably all out of his hands.

Good post. I guess what I was trying to say applies more directly to a more traditional kit setup and also the placement of the overheads. But, as a general rule of thumb, overheads are typically closest to the cymbals so turning the overheads up usually provides you with a higher volume cymbal sound, and more "room" sound. So, yes they will pick up more of the drums too, but that goes along with capturing a more organic drum kit overall. You would then just adjust the direct mics placed on the drums themselves to compensate for the volume picked up by the overheads.

Random frame of reference, on some behind the scenes Metallica video (probably A Year and A Half in the Life) Lars and Bob Rock were talking about all the overheads and room mics they had on the kit for The Black Album, basically wanting to capture all the little reverberations, etc... of the drums and the cymbals in the room. This made the kit harder to mix, but gave the final drum kit sound a massive, great room sound. Of course, this was done on a traditional kit, not set up anything like MM's.

[shadow1psc]

And if it was that hard on Lars' kit (a comparatively simple setup), Mike's must be nigh impossible 

[mikeyd23]

And if it was that hard on Lars' kit (a comparatively simple setup), Mike's must be nigh impossible 

Haha agreed. I wouldn't want the job, for sure.

[Krissi91]

It took me a few listens before I "got" Gift of Music, but I loved Moment of Betrayal right away at first listen. Catchy chorus and a really cool instrumental section. 
Oh, this reminds me that I still have to preorder the album, going to do it now

[Hanz Gruber]

I love the intro and the instrumental section, but the rest does little for me.

Same here.  Not a fan of the vocal parts...not the way that they were sung...just the song itself.  Loved the instruments though.  Good to hear Myung

[SeRoX]

I don't know what I feel about MoB. It feels like it's better than TGOM but then it's like it's even worse than TGOM. I guess musically better but vocally not. Other than that it's good know DT has a bassist.

[As I Am]

The best part of this song was absolutely the quiet intro. I liked the bombastic follow-up too, but the first twenty second or so were my favorite.

I agree with this 100%

[wolven74]

Re: MMs drum sound...

One thing that you have to remember is that MP was a major producer with DT. It was usually MP and JP. I always figured that MP knew how to make his drums sound the way HE wanted them to. I'm sure he's produced on nearly if not all of his other projects. MM said during his audition video that he was looking forward to just playing. He's not doing anything other than that. SO...JP (the guitar player) has to make the drums sound the best he can, not being a drummer. I think he's done a fairly good job so far.

[As I Am]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Don't understand this^ at all? More "musical" than MP?  Just my opinion, but regardless of how great MM is (and he definitely is), he seems to just cover over notes. IMO, there's no "musicality" with that at all.

[rab7]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Don't understand this^ at all? More "musical" than MP?  Just my opinion, but regardless of how great MM is (and he definitely is), he seems to just cover over notes. IMO, there's no "musicality" with that at all.

He explained later that if you listen closely you'll hear it. Honestly, I tried to listen closely and apart from the nice cymbal rhythm he had during The Enemy Inside, I discovered exactly what you discovered, that he covers notes.

I think the guy was mistaking "musicality" for "technicality"

[As I Am]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Don't understand this^ at all? More "musical" than MP?  Just my opinion, but regardless of how great MM is (and he definitely is), he seems to just cover over notes. IMO, there's no "musicality" with that at all.

He explained later that if you listen closely you'll hear it. Honestly, I tried to listen closely and apart from the nice cymbal rhythm he had during The Enemy Inside, I discovered exactly what you discovered, that he covers notes.

I think the guy was mistaking "musicality" for "technicality"

THAT would make much more sense. I agree that MM is technically more proficient than MP (then again, MM is probably "technically" more proficient than most drummers).

[pfillion]

New review

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.radiometal.com/article/dream-theater-the-astonishing,200147&prev=search

https://www.radiometal.com/article/dream-theater-the-astonishing,200147

[Enigmachine]

Don't understand this^ at all? More "musical" than MP?  Just my opinion, but regardless of how great MM is (and he definitely is), he seems to just cover over notes. IMO, there's no "musicality" with that at all.

 

On the subject of MM vs MP, I think both suit the music they play on perfectly and I find both equally air-drummable. MP suits a more flowing, jammy style while MM has more is more focused on careful construction of parts and subtleties (doubling of the rhythm of other instruments, following their melodic patterns with toms etc.) with some crossing over. Both are amazing drummers (and the sound complements the role they play within the band very well IMO).

[the keyboard wizard]

If the google translation doesn't suit you, I could translate it roughly. But to put in a nutshell, the reviewer was pleased by the fact DT is taking risks but I wanted them to take higher risks. For him, the second CD is better.

[Kotowboy]

Here's an interesting question...

Since JP wrote the script over two years and they wrote the music to the script...

Did they write & record The Astonishing in chronological order ?

[mike099]

If the google translation doesn't suit you, I could translate it roughly. But to put in a nutshell, the reviewer was pleased by the fact DT is taking risks but I wanted them to take higher risks. For him, the second CD is better.

Thanks for the translation.  I had a chuckle from the start when the reviewer mentioned
Jordan and John as being the 'instigators'.   

[Jinx]

I feel like Mangini sounds like a kid just banging away at his new drum set.

I'm no Mangini lover, but seriously? Portnoy used one fill all the time and you insult Mangini's fills? 

I find Mangini to actually be more musical than Portnoy.

Don't understand this^ at all? More "musical" than MP?  Just my opinion, but regardless of how great MM is (and he definitely is), he seems to just cover over notes. IMO, there's no "musicality" with that at all.

He explained later that if you listen closely you'll hear it. Honestly, I tried to listen closely and apart from the nice cymbal rhythm he had during The Enemy Inside, I discovered exactly what you discovered, that he covers notes.

I think the guy was mistaking "musicality" for "technicality"

THAT would make much more sense. I agree that MM is technically more proficient than MP (then again, MM is probably "technically" more proficient than most drummers).

I guess his technicality just sounds more musical to my ears   

[Jinx]

Here's an interesting question...

Since JP wrote the script over two years and they wrote the music to the script...

Did they write & record The Astonishing in chronological order ?

Am I right in thinking the script was written before they worked on the music? I think JP must literally have started this right as they were finishing DT12 in the studio!

[CDrice]

Am I the only one who had Moment of Betrayal chorus stuck in my head during the entire day today? It's been a long time since it last happened to me, but it's so good 

[RMGadelha]

Am I the only one who had Moment of Betrayal chorus stuck in my head during the entire day today? It's been a long time since it last happened to me, but it's so good 

The same happened to me and the moment in the story makes it even nicer. 

[Darkstarshades]

I know Eddie Trunk will dislike TA.

[Kotowboy]

I know Eddie Trunk will dislike TA.

Portnoy didn't play on it so yeah.

[Enigmachine]

New review

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.radiometal.com/article/dream-theater-the-astonishing,200147&prev=search

https://www.radiometal.com/article/dream-theater-the-astonishing,200147

The review sounds pretty negative. Looks like I was correct in assuming this album would be polarising.

[Nearmyth]

"Moment Of Betrayal" is very similar to Behind The Veil in progression I've noticed, but I'm diggin this track! This is an odd nitpick but the harmonies in the chorus bother me, I think he could have gone with just a single vocal track and it would've been much more impactful. I'm only listening to it once before the album releases though so I imagine the song as a whole will grow on me 

[Wubbagubba]

I'll be honest, Moment of Betrayal had to grow on me, but right now I'm loving it. Sometimes I wish LaBrie was a bit clearer among the instruments, but this song is so dramatic and grand. I've only heard one of the low quality rips from the radio show, and I can't wait to hear the album quality.

[ResultsMayVary]

I'll be honest, Moment of Betrayal had to grow on me, but right now I'm loving it. Sometimes I wish LaBrie was a bit clearer among the instruments, but this song is so dramatic and grand. I've only heard one of the low quality rips from the radio show, and I can't wait to hear the album quality.

I'm almost convinced the rip from the radio stream and then being posted on youtube is partially responsible for this.

It's like stubbing your big toe really bad and then proceeding to blow it off with a shotgun.

[vazquez]

The review sounds pretty negative. Looks like I was correct in assuming this album would be polarising.

Yes, it is quite negative... there are 4 main criticisms:

1 - Unbalanced dynamics (although I believe this is quite hard to do in a double album, not even Tommy or The Wall are flawless in itīs dynamics). At the same itīs strange, because people here said the opposite.
2 - The new things (mainly the theatrical moments) are not explored enough.
3 - Few participation from the other members - Myung is hidden, Mangini also, the reviewer even has the courage to say that the album is more a Petrucci+Rudess project than a Dream Theater album! Can you believe that?
4 - The last song is not the great finale the reviewer was expecting.

As far as reviews go, I didnīt like it.