Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[CDrice]

It's a shame really, watching Mike play live in a clinic it makes you wonder what goes wrong during the mixing process of the albums, because he sounds so dynamic and powerful when you listen to his drums live.

I'm not a production guy so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I think I remember an interview with Mike where  mentionned that they had a hard time setting up the mic for recording his drum for A Dramatic Turn of Events. I'm guessing it's because there was a lot of sound leakage where it shouldn't.

If that's the case, maybe this drum sound and production is the way they found to make reduce this problem.

Edit: I got ninja'd by nikatapi.

[lightbug]

if DT can't get a decent drum sound (in the last album was awful, really) why people expect to get a decent animation, artwork, video, or anything else beside the music...


I'm not blaming the music, which is awesome, but for a 30 years old band ,there are some basic stuff that has to be done (mix , mastering , etc)

regarding the video, the first time i saw it I was like OMFG, that was really cool , even with the weird animations. what i liked the most was the narration, the snippets and the artwork.

 ...then I returned to the forum.... my god 

don't complain of everything, just enjoy it!!

[noxon]

Two quotes from mangini:
"No Drum trigger(s) David. I didn't know what or how to use it, or what it did or how ... on ADToE, I hit the living crap out of every hit. Maybe that's what you're hearing?"

"Hi all... I have not changed my personal tuning much at all. I think they're bit higher now for more tone. What you hear is in the engineering's area of work. What I think is that the drums being too natural means they get lost with all the music tracks. I don't know though. I also have never triggered a drum sound as I play with too much dynamics in person. NO triggered snare ever. Never ever unless someone hooked one up when I wasn't looking ! I have however just tried a TM-2 this year to trigger what's called an "element" on the kicks so I can hear where they're landing in my ear monitors. Not a drum sound. An "element" like a "tick." That's for my ears though, not for the final sound. My snare is actually tuned up and it is quite bright when the cymbals are as loud as I am actually hitting them. I wish you could hear the kit in my drum-only mixes I use to learn songs. And my trashformer comes from an old, bent, tin cymbal that melted in a car window. Stacking normal cymbals make vacuums and a bent one allows for any cymbal to rattle more."

[Implode]

I like how everyone's arguments against criticism of the artwork don't even defend the art or say it's good. They all just say we aren't allowed to be critical and should automatically like everything DT put out or that our expectations are too high or that the art isn't important.

[rumborak]

Regarding the drum sound, I really can't unhear the "typewriter section" in TGOM.

[BlackInk]

We're also talking about a band who have animated alter egos such as a genie, a wizard and a pirate. So while the plot seems somewhat serious and grandiose, I would not be surprise if they threw in a bit of tongue-in-cheek stuff here and there.

Yes, but so far, we've seen nothing like that, which is what makes it a bit cringye-worthy.

Yeah, the problem is that the album trailer is funny too. At least South Park is supposed to be funny.

I think your confusing DT with other bands that have the revenue for what you want as a trailer.  Lets not fools ourselves to think DT is rolling in the money to be artsy enough for you.

What I want as a trailer? What I would be fine with is some music snippets with an image, maybe some text. An my biggest problem with the trailer isn't even the animation, it's the narration. It's not more expensive to not record ridiculous narration. So it would be much cheaper way to make it "artsy" enough for me.

[ToT-147]

What's the point of a trailer if it apparently has nothing to do with the thing it's a trailer for?
Especially for something story driven, where they've been hyping up a visual stage show?

When you release promotional material for something, the entire point is to give the potential audience a taste; to evoke a sense of "If you like this, you'll want to check out the whole thing".

I'm not making a declarative decision on the whole album based on this stuff. I'm still going to listen to it and give it a fair shake. At the moment though, a person can only go on what has actually been released to the public.

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the album.. It does.. But is not *the album* per se, which is the thing DT and, usually, the rest of the bands in the world do: an album.. Not a trailer to it..

So, while you're right about the trailer giving the potential audience a taste of the actual material, you still don't get my point.. Which is, simply, that my opinion about anything DT or any other band releases will be about the entire work they do.. Not just a part of it.. You don't judge a piece of an artwork, but the whole artwork..

The Bigger Picture.. Not only some of its parts..

Uhhh...

Read the whole thing..

(precisely...)

[Shadow2222]

I like how everyone's arguments against criticism of the artwork don't even defend the art or say it's good. They all just say we aren't allowed to be critical and should automatically like everything DT put out or that our expectations are too high or that the art isn't important.

I notice that tends to happen with DT (not necessarily just here, BTW). The way I look at it is that if the band wants to do something "above and beyond" or not within the norm, they definitely should get appreciation for their efforts, but they also must open themselves up for criticism to those things. It ideally should be constructive, rather than "this is terrible," etc., as I don't defend, at all, what would be constituted as bashing.

Personally, I'm thrilled by the concept, believe that the still art is amazing, love the world that they have built with the characters/map/etc., and can't wait to receive the physical goodies in the boxset. However, I also recognize that the animation in the trailer is subpar. I'm very optimistic, as Blob, I believe, indicated that the trailer is not indicative of how the art/animations will actually be used in the live shows.

In the end though, unlike a movie, or even a video game, Dream Theater is about the music. I do think that some people are going overboard with how much they are letting the extra materials impact their enjoyment of the album cycle, when in reality, those that hate it may love the album, and someone like me that really enjoy this extra stuff could actually end up disliking the album.

[TL]

What's the point of a trailer if it apparently has nothing to do with the thing it's a trailer for?
Especially for something story driven, where they've been hyping up a visual stage show?

When you release promotional material for something, the entire point is to give the potential audience a taste; to evoke a sense of "If you like this, you'll want to check out the whole thing".

I'm not making a declarative decision on the whole album based on this stuff. I'm still going to listen to it and give it a fair shake. At the moment though, a person can only go on what has actually been released to the public.

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the album.. It does.. But is not *the album* per se, which is the thing DT and, usually, the rest of the bands in the world do: an album.. Not a trailer to it..

So, while you're right about the trailer giving the potential audience a taste of the actual material, you still don't get my point.. Which is, simply, that my opinion about anything DT or any other band releases will be about the entire work they do.. Not just a part of it.. You don't judge a piece of an artwork, but the whole artwork..

The Bigger Picture.. Not only some of its parts..

Uhhh...

Read the whole thing..

(precisely...)

How did... you specifically re-read the entire thing, and still missed the point?

I literally said that I'm only judging what we've seen, and not the entire album. That I'm reserving judgment of the overall album for when I actually hear the album.

Then you said I shouldn't judge the whole album based on a trailer.

Which I wasn't doing in the first place, and have made pretty clear.

Like, the thing you highlighted backs up what I'm saying, not what you're saying.

If you like the promotional material they've released so far, that's great! I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm literally expressing my opinion about what I think of the promotional material so far. That's all.

[CDrice]

We're also talking about a band who have animated alter egos such as a genie, a wizard and a pirate. So while the plot seems somewhat serious and grandiose, I would not be surprise if they threw in a bit of tongue-in-cheek stuff here and there.

Yes, but so far, we've seen nothing like that, which is what makes it a bit cringye-worthy.

That makes sense.

An my biggest problem with the trailer isn't even the animation, it's the narration. It's not more expensive to not record ridiculous narration.

One could argue that the ridiculous narration might be part of what I'm talking about though. Of course, it's impossible to know .

[Enigmachine]

I'm very optimistic, as Blob, I believe, indicated that the trailer is not indicative of how the art/animations will actually be used in the live shows.

He mentioned that they were out of context, but didn't say that they would be used in a different way.

Concerning the visuals, keep in mind they have over 2 hours of music to fill with video to tell the story, which is a tall order for the time and money. This also isn't in the context it was designed and intended for, so it's not how it would be experienced live.

[mikeyd23]

So... If the drum sound problems stem from problems micing MM's kit... Then why wouldn't someone (engineer) properly identify that and inform the band. MM could easily use a kit similar to the smaller one he used at clinics when recording. If that would translate to a better drum sound I feel like it would be worth it.

That being said, I've seen many drummers use unusual setups and still get great drum sound in the studio. Judging by TGoM, MM's drums sound good to my ear, certainly the best drum sound he has gotten on a DT record yet, but stack that drum sound against FII or SFAM or SDOIT and it seems like it could be a lot better.

[TAC]

I see that the narration of the trailer is mentioned a few posts above. I just want to say that the narration is awesome. And hilarious. But awesome.

[Bertie_Wooster]

Regarding the video  I don't care if it is Cheesy .   I love it.   This reminds me of a Zelda videogame with Dream Theater writing the score.
I suppose if DT put clothes dryers on the stage they would get crap too.   One thing I like about Rush fans is that to them Rush is King
of the world and everthing they do is great.   Dream Theater fans are of a different sort.

[Bertie_Wooster]

[/qI see that the narration of the trailer is mentioned a few posts above. I just want to say that the narration is awesome. And hilarious. But awesome.
uote]

Exactly.   The narration is perfect IMO.

[ToT-147]

I like how everyone's arguments against criticism of the artwork don't even defend the art or say it's good. They all just say we aren't allowed to be critical and should automatically like everything DT put out or that our expectations are too high or that the art isn't important.

You're not saying it was bad either..

As for me, I don't care about the video.. I care about the music, and I really liked what I heard, in both TGoM and the trailer.. I don't think (as others do think, only that in the opposite way: that "we MUST look at the graphics and form opinions on the album that way") that you're not allowed to be critical.. Do what you want.. But, IMHO, you *should* not be judging a band for their videos.. Not even for their videoclips.. Music is what they do.. Accept it for once..

You should NOT automatically like everything DT put out, regarding music or whatever, but the relevant thing is the former..

At least my expectations are too high, yeah.. It's DT..

The art isn't THAT important, to right away be writing your opinion about it instead of how bad/meh/good/excellent was what you listened there which is, in the end, and for the last time, all that matters..

[Enigmachine]

Then why wouldn't someone (engineer) properly identify that and inform the band.

Because there's nothing objectively wrong with the end result.

but stack that drum sound against FII or SFAM or SDOIT and it seems like it could be a lot better.

Eh, not to my ears. TGoM's drum sound is punchy and unique and a lot of the aspects others see as an issue, I see as another way for the overall sound to be more distinctive from other DT albums.

[King Postwhore]

We're also talking about a band who have animated alter egos such as a genie, a wizard and a pirate. So while the plot seems somewhat serious and grandiose, I would not be surprise if they threw in a bit of tongue-in-cheek stuff here and there.

Yes, but so far, we've seen nothing like that, which is what makes it a bit cringye-worthy.

Yeah, the problem is that the album trailer is funny too. At least South Park is supposed to be funny.

I think your confusing DT with other bands that have the revenue for what you want as a trailer.  Lets not fools ourselves to think DT is rolling in the money to be artsy enough for you.

What I want as a trailer? What I would be fine with is some music snippets with an image, maybe some text. An my biggest problem with the trailer isn't even the animation, it's the narration. It's not more expensive to not record ridiculous narration. So it would be much cheaper way to make it "artsy" enough for me.

It isn't as bad as you put it.  I think your overanalyzing it.  The album is really the most important,  not the trailer.

[ResultsMayVary]

Also, am I the only one who likes the drum sound?

I've never had an issue with Mangini's drum sound, but I will say I like what I've heard from the new album the best.

[Kotowboy]

I think the real problem with the drums is the snare, everything else sounds good.

On a subjective note, I don't like the lower tuned snare sound, it lacks the snap of a higher snare. I also think it still lacks some dynamics, but it's a lot better here than on DT12. I can actually make out ghost notes now.
Overall I think it's clear they've taken on board the major criticisms of the production on the previous album, because it's a big improvement imo.

I can't wait to blast the CD in my headphones whilst on a long walk . I always import into iTunes as WAV and I have a good set of headphones so looking forward to it.

[ResultsMayVary]

It's a shame really, watching Mike play live in a clinic it makes you wonder what goes wrong during the mixing process of the albums, because he sounds so dynamic and powerful when you listen to his drums live.

I'm not a production guy so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I think I remember an interview with Mike where  mentionned that they had a hard time setting up the mic for recording his drum for A Dramatic Turn of Events. I'm guessing it's because there was a lot of sound leakage where it shouldn't.

If that's the case, maybe this drum sound and production is the way they found to make reduce this problem.

Edit: I got ninja'd by nikatapi.

And maybe the amount of albums he's been on has allowed him to tweak/experiment with the mic setup and that's why we've basically gotten a better sound from his kit on recordings over time.

[Kotowboy]

How does his kit sound on James two MullMuzzler albums ?

[Mark Levinson Jr.]

Regarding the video  I don't care if it is Cheesy .   I love it.   This reminds me of a Zelda videogame with Dream Theater writing the score.
I suppose if DT put clothes dryers on the stage they would get crap too.   One thing I like about Rush fans is that to them Rush is King
of the world and everthing they do is great.   Dream Theater fans are of a different sort.

I agree that there's a lot of bands doing unique things like Rush's stage show, and that those things just kind of slide under the radar, unmentioned. I also see that there's even more bands who do less.

Blind Guardian recently released a (more or less) concept album, which was a Part 2 to an older album, and they released nothing but one "lyric video". Symphony X had a couple lyric videos for Underworld and that was a really strong themed album, like a concept album.... but no other promotion at all. They may have played most of the new album on the tour, but still, no supplemental material for an album that would have been perfect for it.

Kamelot had a couple real MTV style videos, and Nightwish released a bunch of "Making of" videos... but none of these bands brought up new websites, had dedicated Twitter feeds, rolled out a true campaign or took extra effort to explain the uniqueness and subtlety of what they were doing to the fans or to the masses. All of them had albums that were in a similar genre as DT, and albums that would have been a great fit for that type of marketing.

I guess I see it as DT going the extra mile, for the fans, to give us all something fun to think about in the troubled world. I'm just so happy to go to their sites and hit F5, and I just feel like it's so far above and beyond the call of duty to do what they've done.

[Implode]

I like how everyone's arguments against criticism of the artwork don't even defend the art or say it's good. They all just say we aren't allowed to be critical and should automatically like everything DT put out or that our expectations are too high or that the art isn't important.

You're not saying it was bad either..

Didn't I? I thought that was clear. It's bad. I think it's bad. I'm saying it's bad.

That being said, I don't hold it against DT in the slightest, and it won't affect my enjoyment of the album when I actually listen to it. But that also doesn't mean it's not awful because...it kind of is. And to be specific I'm merely talking about the artwork. The concept of the video trailer and voice over and cheese all in all is great imo. I'm still pumped for the album.

[Podaar]

but stack that drum sound against FII or SFAM or SDOIT and it seems like it could be a lot better.

Eh, not to my ears. TGoM's drum sound is punchy and unique and a lot of the aspects others see as an issue, I see as another way for the overall sound to be more distinctive from other DT albums.

I agree with the exception of the kick drum. It stands out too much for my liking when listening over speakers (Rumby's typewriter). Headphones tend to reduce the problem though.

[jakepriest]

ADTOE is by far his best DT drum sound. And even that sound is bloody horrible. I seriously don't get it since everything else I've heard from his apart from DT sounded pretty fine.

[Bertielee]

I know Bosk (I think it was Bosk) said it would be a very divisive album, I didn't know the animations would be as well.

B.Lee

[cramx3]

How does his kit sound on James two MullMuzzler albums ?

Drums sound good on Elements of Persuasion if you ask me. Drums also sound fine on BTFW.  I don't personally believe it is a MM problem.

[Paintbox]

Did you already read/post this?

(Found on reddit)

[ResultsMayVary]

Then why wouldn't someone (engineer) properly identify that and inform the band.

Because there's nothing objectively wrong with the end result.

This is a very important point that most people are missing. It seems the majority (at least how I've seen the argument) of people don't like MM's drum sound, which is a preference.

[Kotowboy]

There you go. I never thought the snare on DT12 was triggered.  He's just that consistent.

Plus you have compression, gating etc.

[ResultsMayVary]

There you go. I never thought the snare on DT12 was triggered.  He's just that consistent.

Plus you have compression, gating etc.

Considering how he plays, this doesn't surprise me at all. The dude is insanely consistent to the point where people actually believe it's triggered.

[Kotowboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkSuGV0Zhsg

New-ish Mangini Video.

[Implode]

I distinctly remember this exact discussion happening back when ADTOE came out.

[vazquez]

Strange. I think I´m one of the few who doesn´t bother with the drum sound on ADTOE or DT12. Ok, they are not amazing, so what? I believe the rest of the instruments were so much better than before (mostly the bass), and they are more important to me.

I believe in the past albums Portnoy had a greater influence during the mix, so the drums sounded a lot better, but that made the remaining instruments worse (again, mostly the bass). I.e., I´m listening to the official bootleg Tokyo, Japan 10/28/95, where Portnoy had a lot of influence mixing/mastering, and I can´t believe how high are the drums on it. It almost kills the album.

As long as the musicians are ok, I believe the sound of the guy with the sticks can be sacrificed without great loss.