Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[Prog Snob]

Why is the setting of the story important anyhow? It's just dressing. The story of Star Wars isn't about spaceships. It's about the hero's journey. It's about friendship (and ultimately, family). The same is true about Game of Thrones - ultimately, if you "undress" it, it's a soap opera.

The dressing of the setting is just a way to set up the story. And I don't get it why people need to have everything be relatable. "I can't enjoy a story that's not in my world, because I can't relate to it". Sure you can. Because ultimately, it's a story about human behavior. Even movies with speaking animals is about human behavior.

I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I particularly do not believe in reincarnation. Does that hinder me from enjoying the story of SFAM? Not at all! Because the story is ultimately a basic "whodunnit" at its core.

The Astonishing is a story about people. It's setting is a dystopian future (so how you get "game of thrones" from that - considering game of thrones is set in a medieval-like setting (High fantasy) I'm not sure). To ease your way into the setting, the story comes with illustrations of the people in the story and a map, as well as pictures of some key locations in the story. And it's the most elaborate I've ever seen DT be. But I completely understand why. To experience this album is not just to experience the music. The story is so important that you need to experience it like a play. In fact, I can with absolute certainty say that if the story is a problem for you, you will have problem with the music as well, because they're so strongly connected.


This points towards a more general problem I've always seen from DT fans. REGARDLESS of what DT does, a great portion of the fans will hate it with a passion, a great portion will love it with all their heart, and the rest are just "it's okay"... It even happened with SFAM. Heck, it even happened with IAW. It's become so predictable that I can tell instantly how the fanbase will react to any song. I think it's insane, I don't see this level of scrutiny in other fanbases.

I think you might be overreacting.

I don't think he did. He makes a valid point regarding people nitpicking over trivial details. I just had a similar discussion with someone regarding Tolkien. They just found it "stupid" and "ridiculous" to write a story with dragons and wizards and whatnot. What I told him is that he's completely missing the point if that's all he sees when he reads Tolkien's books. It's not meant to be superficial. Using dragons (GoT or The Hobbit) or spaceships (Star Wars) is not the point. It just relates the story to a different group using different mediums. It gives it a different appeal.

[King Postwhore]

Why is the setting of the story important anyhow? It's just dressing. The story of Star Wars isn't about spaceships. It's about the hero's journey. It's about friendship (and ultimately, family). The same is true about Game of Thrones - ultimately, if you "undress" it, it's a soap opera.

The dressing of the setting is just a way to set up the story. And I don't get it why people need to have everything be relatable. "I can't enjoy a story that's not in my world, because I can't relate to it". Sure you can. Because ultimately, it's a story about human behavior. Even movies with speaking animals is about human behavior.

I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I particularly do not believe in reincarnation. Does that hinder me from enjoying the story of SFAM? Not at all! Because the story is ultimately a basic "whodunnit" at its core.

The Astonishing is a story about people. It's setting is a dystopian future (so how you get "game of thrones" from that - considering game of thrones is set in a medieval-like setting (High fantasy) I'm not sure). To ease your way into the setting, the story comes with illustrations of the people in the story and a map, as well as pictures of some key locations in the story. And it's the most elaborate I've ever seen DT be. But I completely understand why. To experience this album is not just to experience the music. The story is so important that you need to experience it like a play. In fact, I can with absolute certainty say that if the story is a problem for you, you will have problem with the music as well, because they're so strongly connected.


This points towards a more general problem I've always seen from DT fans. REGARDLESS of what DT does, a great portion of the fans will hate it with a passion, a great portion will love it with all their heart, and the rest are just "it's okay"... It even happened with SFAM. Heck, it even happened with IAW. It's become so predictable that I can tell instantly how the fanbase will react to any song. I think it's insane, I don't see this level of scrutiny in other fanbases.

I think you might be overreacting.

I know you are wrong.

[me7]

I know but I still think it's a bad business model given the situation with downloading.  I've pre-ordered the CD, of course, if I got an email saying for an extra $10 I could download it now I would be running to get my credit card.  Before downloading it made sense.  Now it's just bad business.  Then many people who buy it also download it first, as an example if it were to leak on 1/24 I would download it and still get my pre-order on 1/29 so I would still buy it. But then bands wonder why so many download it when a good number of the downloads are also buyers.  Craziness.  But it's a max of 28 days now.

I agree. This model just supports piracy sites who make money from ads as people visit them. Fans who already preordered the album will go to piracy sites as soon as it leaks, because they want to hear it as soon as possible. By doing so, they generate traffic and ad money for pirates, keeping them afloat financially.

[TL]

Why is the setting of the story important anyhow? It's just dressing. The story of Star Wars isn't about spaceships. It's about the hero's journey. It's about friendship (and ultimately, family). The same is true about Game of Thrones - ultimately, if you "undress" it, it's a soap opera.

The dressing of the setting is just a way to set up the story. And I don't get it why people need to have everything be relatable. "I can't enjoy a story that's not in my world, because I can't relate to it". Sure you can. Because ultimately, it's a story about human behavior. Even movies with speaking animals is about human behavior.

I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I particularly do not believe in reincarnation. Does that hinder me from enjoying the story of SFAM? Not at all! Because the story is ultimately a basic "whodunnit" at its core.

The Astonishing is a story about people. It's setting is a dystopian future (so how you get "game of thrones" from that - considering game of thrones is set in a medieval-like setting (High fantasy) I'm not sure). To ease your way into the setting, the story comes with illustrations of the people in the story and a map, as well as pictures of some key locations in the story. And it's the most elaborate I've ever seen DT be. But I completely understand why. To experience this album is not just to experience the music. The story is so important that you need to experience it like a play. In fact, I can with absolute certainty say that if the story is a problem for you, you will have problem with the music as well, because they're so strongly connected.


This points towards a more general problem I've always seen from DT fans. REGARDLESS of what DT does, a great portion of the fans will hate it with a passion, a great portion will love it with all their heart, and the rest are just "it's okay"... It even happened with SFAM. Heck, it even happened with IAW. It's become so predictable that I can tell instantly how the fanbase will react to any song. I think it's insane, I don't see this level of scrutiny in other fanbases.

I think you might be overreacting.

I don't think he did. He makes a valid point regarding people nitpicking over trivial details. I just had a similar discussion with someone regarding Tolkien. They just found it "stupid" and "ridiculous" to write a story with dragons and wizards and whatnot. What I told him is that he's completely missing the point if that's all he sees when he reads Tolkien's books. It's not meant to be superficial. Using dragons (GoT or The Hobbit) or spaceships (Star Wars) is not the point. It just relates the story to a different group using different mediums. It gives it a different appeal.

I never said it was "stupid", or that it couldn't be relateable.

I don't personally enjoy things set in that sort of fantasy setting (and yes, even if The Astonishing is set in the future, it's clearly going for a certain fantasy style), and so I'm not as excited about that aspect of the album. That doesn't mean other people shouldn't enjoy it. I don't think "people have different tastes in things" should be a controversial thing to say.

I'm still going to listen to the album, and musically TGOM sounds promising. I'm just not interested in any of the story or setting stuff so far. That doesn't mean I think it's stupid or that other people shouldn't like it.

[noxon]

The reason for -any- "launch date" in retail for stuff like movies, music, video games etc, is pretty simple. Most of the sales happen in the first few weeks after release. And the first week of sale is the spot where they get "noticed" in music. Especially stuff that's not mainstream. DT is usually in and out of the local list in two weeks. But that one week they were in, they'll hit like in the top 10. And that's how the record company "know" that they've done their job.

And to say that it "supports piracy"? What? I know several movies that have leaked in unfinished versions. I know several albums that have leaked in unfinished versions. Is this okay? Should the band just give in and release their material when it's leaked because "piracy always wins"? This is a horrible mindset, and so illustrative of the blatant disrespect people have towards intellectual property.

[Prog Snob]

Why is the setting of the story important anyhow? It's just dressing. The story of Star Wars isn't about spaceships. It's about the hero's journey. It's about friendship (and ultimately, family). The same is true about Game of Thrones - ultimately, if you "undress" it, it's a soap opera.

The dressing of the setting is just a way to set up the story. And I don't get it why people need to have everything be relatable. "I can't enjoy a story that's not in my world, because I can't relate to it". Sure you can. Because ultimately, it's a story about human behavior. Even movies with speaking animals is about human behavior.

I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I particularly do not believe in reincarnation. Does that hinder me from enjoying the story of SFAM? Not at all! Because the story is ultimately a basic "whodunnit" at its core.

The Astonishing is a story about people. It's setting is a dystopian future (so how you get "game of thrones" from that - considering game of thrones is set in a medieval-like setting (High fantasy) I'm not sure). To ease your way into the setting, the story comes with illustrations of the people in the story and a map, as well as pictures of some key locations in the story. And it's the most elaborate I've ever seen DT be. But I completely understand why. To experience this album is not just to experience the music. The story is so important that you need to experience it like a play. In fact, I can with absolute certainty say that if the story is a problem for you, you will have problem with the music as well, because they're so strongly connected.


This points towards a more general problem I've always seen from DT fans. REGARDLESS of what DT does, a great portion of the fans will hate it with a passion, a great portion will love it with all their heart, and the rest are just "it's okay"... It even happened with SFAM. Heck, it even happened with IAW. It's become so predictable that I can tell instantly how the fanbase will react to any song. I think it's insane, I don't see this level of scrutiny in other fanbases.

I think you might be overreacting.

I don't think he did. He makes a valid point regarding people nitpicking over trivial details. I just had a similar discussion with someone regarding Tolkien. They just found it "stupid" and "ridiculous" to write a story with dragons and wizards and whatnot. What I told him is that he's completely missing the point if that's all he sees when he reads Tolkien's books. It's not meant to be superficial. Using dragons (GoT or The Hobbit) or spaceships (Star Wars) is not the point. It just relates the story to a different group using different mediums. It gives it a different appeal.

I never said it was "stupid", or that it couldn't be relateable.

I don't personally enjoy things set in that sort of fantasy setting (and yes, even if The Astonishing is set in the future, it's clearly going for a certain fantasy style), and so I'm not as excited about that aspect of the album. That doesn't mean other people shouldn't enjoy it. I don't think "people have different tastes in things" should be a controversial thing to say.

I'm still going to listen to the album, and musically TGOM sounds promising. I'm just not interested in any of the story or setting stuff so far. That doesn't mean I think it's stupid or that other people shouldn't like it.

I never said that you said it was stupid. I was relating another story to this situation.

Secondly, you said that "not everyone is into Game of Thrones-y stuff." No one before that implied that it had to be fantasy or the work Kasper did. You made that leap. Unless I missed something before that, which I'm pretty sure I didn't.

[Thematt202]

What was the whole TGOM situation?  I thought Rolling Stone premiered it and it was all official?

It leaked a few hours before that happened.

How did I miss this?!

You just missed another leak, too.

Should that be in green font?

[TL]

As for an actual stylistic nitpick, and it is a nitpick;
For the character portraits, I feel like they would have been better off using sketches rather than CGI. Probably stylized to a degree too, and not just all medium-close shots of the characters looking into the camera. That's just my opinion though.

Either way, it doesn't really have much bearing on whether or not I end up liking the album.

[TL]

Why is the setting of the story important anyhow? It's just dressing. The story of Star Wars isn't about spaceships. It's about the hero's journey. It's about friendship (and ultimately, family). The same is true about Game of Thrones - ultimately, if you "undress" it, it's a soap opera.

The dressing of the setting is just a way to set up the story. And I don't get it why people need to have everything be relatable. "I can't enjoy a story that's not in my world, because I can't relate to it". Sure you can. Because ultimately, it's a story about human behavior. Even movies with speaking animals is about human behavior.

I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I particularly do not believe in reincarnation. Does that hinder me from enjoying the story of SFAM? Not at all! Because the story is ultimately a basic "whodunnit" at its core.

The Astonishing is a story about people. It's setting is a dystopian future (so how you get "game of thrones" from that - considering game of thrones is set in a medieval-like setting (High fantasy) I'm not sure). To ease your way into the setting, the story comes with illustrations of the people in the story and a map, as well as pictures of some key locations in the story. And it's the most elaborate I've ever seen DT be. But I completely understand why. To experience this album is not just to experience the music. The story is so important that you need to experience it like a play. In fact, I can with absolute certainty say that if the story is a problem for you, you will have problem with the music as well, because they're so strongly connected.


This points towards a more general problem I've always seen from DT fans. REGARDLESS of what DT does, a great portion of the fans will hate it with a passion, a great portion will love it with all their heart, and the rest are just "it's okay"... It even happened with SFAM. Heck, it even happened with IAW. It's become so predictable that I can tell instantly how the fanbase will react to any song. I think it's insane, I don't see this level of scrutiny in other fanbases.

I think you might be overreacting.

I don't think he did. He makes a valid point regarding people nitpicking over trivial details. I just had a similar discussion with someone regarding Tolkien. They just found it "stupid" and "ridiculous" to write a story with dragons and wizards and whatnot. What I told him is that he's completely missing the point if that's all he sees when he reads Tolkien's books. It's not meant to be superficial. Using dragons (GoT or The Hobbit) or spaceships (Star Wars) is not the point. It just relates the story to a different group using different mediums. It gives it a different appeal.

I never said it was "stupid", or that it couldn't be relateable.

I don't personally enjoy things set in that sort of fantasy setting (and yes, even if The Astonishing is set in the future, it's clearly going for a certain fantasy style), and so I'm not as excited about that aspect of the album. That doesn't mean other people shouldn't enjoy it. I don't think "people have different tastes in things" should be a controversial thing to say.

I'm still going to listen to the album, and musically TGOM sounds promising. I'm just not interested in any of the story or setting stuff so far. That doesn't mean I think it's stupid or that other people shouldn't like it.

I never said that you said it was stupid. I was relating another story to this situation.

Secondly, you said that "not everyone is into Game of Thrones-y stuff." No one before that implied that it had to be fantasy or the work Kasper did. You made that leap. Unless I missed something before that, which I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Fair enough. I was replying more to the general notion of people being too critical about this or that relating to the upcoming album. I think if some people aren't onboard with the initial idea, they're probably more likely to me more critical of what follows.

[BlackInk]

I love fantasy. I'm also pretty convinced that I'll really dislike this album overall. Everything I've read about this so far is soooo cringey.

I'll still give it a chance of course, but all of this silliness might make it more difficult for me to enjoy it.

[MirrorMask]

I agree. This model just supports piracy sites who make money from ads as people visit them. Fans who already preordered the album will go to piracy sites as soon as it leaks, because they want to hear it as soon as possible. By doing so, they generate traffic and ad money for pirates, keeping them afloat financially.

I didn't preorder it, but I won't download it when it will be avalaible (I assume in the last week when physical copies will be ship out), am I the only one who can wait? like those people who binge-watch shows and then complain they have to wait an year for another season of their favorite show, is it really such an impossible task, with all the curiosity and expectations one may have, to wait for the release date to hear an album? people have the rest of their lives to hear an album, a week or so makes it such a big difference?

[mikemangioy]

I'm quite conflicted this time. I personally always listen to the leaks, especially when I have pre-ordered.. this time, though, I feel that listening to the album  for the first time with the actual physical copy in my hands will be a far better experience since the concept is so big.

[MirrorMask]

I personally always listen to the leaks, especially when I have pre-ordered.

"I always open Christmas presents way before the 25th of December, my friends and loved ones already bought them for me anyway"

 

It's not about downloading (I'm a "live and let live" kind of dude on this point, anyone can do whatever they want), it's about as I said before knowing to wait... if pre-ordering would mean also early release, the copies would be shipped before and not around the actual release date.

[KevShmev]

Random thought: I am NOT referring to anyone specifically, but I find that forum posters are sometimes like reporters; they want the scoop of being the first one to report/post it, so it's more fun and satisfying, I suppose, to post first and ask questions later. Asking a mod means someone else, like that mod, could post it first and then they have been scooped.

Well, I don't care about posting info first, I just wanted to start some relevant discussion on the album since TGoM came out about a month ago with the Rolling Stone interview and very little has come since regarding solid info on album content. I assumed the guy was credible considering that he had the album for reviewing purposes and even held back on some info when he said "I can't really speak about it at length. Embargo and all that.". I didn't think to ask until I referenced the website, but it turns out that the reddit info was the problem. I'd be perfectly fine with not being the first one to communicate info, I'm not that self-centred.

That is why I said, " I am NOT referring to anyone specifically..."  I was speaking in general terms. 

Cool?

[King Postwhore]

Kev,  we know you were talking directly about Enigmachine,  your fingers disobeyed you.

[Crow]

ok so then why the hell are you going to divide your double album so poorly

i haven't seen a split this bad since The Ocean's Precambrian 

[noxon]

So poorly? it's not like its 80 minutes 20 minutes...

[millahh]

ok so then why the hell are you going to divide your double album so poorly

i haven't seen a split this bad since The Ocean's Precambrian 

It's fairly typical for Act I to be about 60% and Act II to be about 40% in shows, and this is in that ballpark.  Bad opinion zone, indeed!

[King Postwhore]

But guys, it has to be even or its of kilter or something,  something.

[ericoml]

Someone who have already heard the album, there is some influence of Savatage's rock operas? Personally they are my favorites on the genre and I would enjoy very much to hear something with voices like "Chance" and "The Hourglass" by DT.

[noxon]

I haven't heard much of Savatage before - but I ran quickly through a couple of the tracks they've had on their concept albums.

I wouldn't say "inspired by" as I don't know if that's the case. But there's definitively a stylistic similarity - I don't think you'll be disappointed by the DT one if you really like the Savatage concept albums. of course, DT doesn't do the multilayered vocal tracking as they don't have that type of vocal ability in the band I'm afraid, but the orchestration, and heavy reliance on piano - yeah, totally can see a semblance there.

[ericoml]

I haven't heard much of Savatage before - but I ran quickly through a couple of the tracks they've had on their concept albums.

I wouldn't say "inspired by" as I don't know if that's the case. But there's definitively a stylistic similarity - I don't think you'll be disappointed by the DT one if you really like the Savatage concept albums. of course, DT doesn't do the multilayered vocal tracking as they don't have that type of vocal ability in the band I'm afraid, but the orchestration, and heavy reliance on piano - yeah, totally can see a semblance there.

That's VERY good news. Thanks. I suggest to listen Savatage's rock operas in the next days - specially Poets and madmen and The wake of Magellan which are the most metal ones -,  so you can tell us if there are more similarities with The Astonishing, I really enjoy their rock opera style.

[ericoml]

When I first listened to SFAM I immediately recalled Streets - a Rock Opera by Savatage you can see that are many influences on SFAM  - take for example Spirit Carries On and Believe. Of course DT is much more talented however is good to read that The Astonishing may has some Savatage inspiration and I would like to learn more if possible.

[RMGadelha]

I haven't heard much of Savatage before - but I ran quickly through a couple of the tracks they've had on their concept albums.

I wouldn't say "inspired by" as I don't know if that's the case. But there's definitively a stylistic similarity - I don't think you'll be disappointed by the DT one if you really like the Savatage concept albums. of course, DT doesn't do the multilayered vocal tracking as they don't have that type of vocal ability in the band I'm afraid, but the orchestration, and heavy reliance on piano - yeah, totally can see a semblance there.

Do the similarities with About to Crash/SDOIT end on TGOM? Because that's one of my top DT songs.

[noxon]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

[lightbug]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

Ohh Yeahhh

[CDrice]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

Well, now I'm really disappointed. That's like their four worst album just kidding

[TH1RT3EN]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

I don't mean to question the credibility of a statement that came from noxon, but after Portnoy described BC&SL as a combination of A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Learning to Live, Pull Me Under and The Glass Prison prior to its release, I became quite skeptical about those types of comparison…

[RMGadelha]

Well, in my case, 3 of them are my favorites. Lol.

[lightbug]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

Well, now I'm really disappointed. That's like their four worst album just kidding

what !?!?

[CDrice]

No. In fact, it's like FII, SFAM, SDOIT, and 8V had an orgy, and the resulting baby was TA...

Well, now I'm really disappointed. That's like their four worst album just kidding

what !?!?

Sometimes the answer lies within the small prints

[seasonsinthesky]

ok so then why the hell are you going to divide your double album so poorly

i haven't seen a split this bad since The Ocean's Precambrian 

Precambrian was split that way because disc 1 was designed for a mini-CD. Those have smaller runtimes because they don't possess the surface space to run the typical 80 minutes. Other bands have done it similarly – a recent example being the CD version of Vein by Boris, which is a regular 5” CD size, but the area outside the mini-(3")CD is transparent and has a design printed on it. Each disc runs 18 minutes.

In DT's case, remember that the band seem to write until they are done and include all material (since SFAM), so splitting it across CDs in general is enforced by the medium, not the material. Perhaps the band even sequenced it with the vinyl sides in mind rather than CDs, like the last Pink Floyd album.

And either way, the download version isn't split.

[Enigmachine]

That is why I said, " I am NOT referring to anyone specifically..."  I was speaking in general terms. 

Cool?

It's just that the general terms includes me and I was just defending my choice. But it's cool. 

ok so then why the hell are you going to divide your double album so poorly

i haven't seen a split this bad since The Ocean's Precambrian 

Porcupine Tree's The Incident is quite bad with this, although it does seem to have its reasons considering it isn't even double length and the second disk is more like an extra EP.

[Ben_Jamin]

Has anyone else looked at the clouds during the TGOM video?

Also maybe Faythe is listening to TGOM?

[Enigmachine]

Has anyone else looked at the clouds during the TGOM video?

Yeah, they look like some psychedelic trip. The thumbnail shows one of the worst cases of this.