Dream Theater: The Astonishing (now with moment of betrayal!)

[Madman Shepherd]

So I haven't posted anything about my opinion because I couldn't figure out which of the 8 threads I should post in but....

the term "rock opera" scares the shit out of me. 

Concept album?  Cool. 

Rock opera?  Ehhhh....isn't that what Nostradamus was?

I was also hoping this would be some type of alternate history but now it seems scifi.  DT are kinda striking out with me. 

I'm still psyched for it and I will still buy it the day it goes on sale but man.....I just don't know. 

[Kotowboy]

Now wait a minute, man !

.....I just don't understand. 

[MirrorMask]

I thought of something last night. I think it's likely that there will be a single, but what about a music video? Considering the lengths they're going through to immerse us in the story of this album, it would be awesome to have a music video featuring characters/settings/scenes from the story.

There are already two placeholders for videos at the Astonishing page... pretty sure if it won't be a video of a song, at the very least it will be something related to the story.

So I haven't posted anything about my opinion because I couldn't figure out which of the 8 threads I should post in but....

the term "rock opera" scares the shit out of me. 

Concept album?  Cool. 

Rock opera?  Ehhhh....isn't that what Nostradamus was?

"Rock opera" is used in such a broad way that anything with a story and a couple of characters can, and usually is, labeled as a rock opera, so don't worry too much about it 

Also, I love Nostradamus, I would sign for DT to make an album (in their style of course) that I would enjoy as much as that one.

[Madman Shepherd]

I thought of something last night. I think it's likely that there will be a single, but what about a music video? Considering the lengths they're going through to immerse us in the story of this album, it would be awesome to have a music video featuring characters/settings/scenes from the story.

There are already two placeholders for videos at the Astonishing page... pretty sure if it won't be a video of a song, at the very least it will be something related to the story.

So I haven't posted anything about my opinion because I couldn't figure out which of the 8 threads I should post in but....

the term "rock opera" scares the shit out of me. 

Concept album?  Cool. 

Rock opera?  Ehhhh....isn't that what Nostradamus was?

"Rock opera" is used in such a broad way that anything with a story and a couple of characters can, and usually is, labeled as a rock opera, so don't worry too much about it 

Also, I love Nostradamus, I would sign for DT to make an album (in their style of course) that I would enjoy as much as that one.

The thing is, I don't give a shit about Nostradamus.  I just couldn't get into it because the guy from history doesn't interest me. 

With SFAM, even if you don't like or understand the story, there are really cool broad themes running through it that you can get into. 

If I don't end up liking the story of the Astonishing, can I really find myself singing along to some song about NOMACS and BIGMACS and whatnot? 

I hope I can...I'm keeping an open mind but man, its got me scared. 

[bosk1]

I am super excited!

I thought of something last night. I think it's likely that there will be a single, but what about a music video? Considering the lengths they're going through to immerse us in the story of this album, it would be awesome to have a music video featuring characters/settings/scenes from the story.

I don't know anything official about that (and if I did, I likely couldn't say anything anyway), but they have done song videos for the last two albums now, and they have had creative input into both of those, so I would be pretty surprised if they DIDN'T do a music video with aspects of the story incorporated into it.  But that is just my best guess.

[Kotowboy]

American Idiot was called a rock opera. That was basically just a story set to music.

[BlackInk]

I dreamt a few nights ago that I heard the new album. Sounded pretty cool. Although you guys can forget that awesome art that that guy made, because my vision says that the cover will be a large red bull doing a tough-guy face and flexing towards the camera.

[TioJorge]

Madam, I used to be weary of the term as well till I found out it's, as stated, the same exact thing as a concept album. The same. No difference except for how people want to use it.

Between the Buried and Me's Coma Ecliptic is a rock opera.
Dream Theater's SFAM is a rock opera.
Coheed and Cambria's entire discography except their newest album are all rock operas.
Many of The Dear Hunter's albums are rock operas (this one actually works perfectly with the term given the orchestral nature).

You can even call Porcupine Tree's The Incident a rock opera if you so please. It's just another term, albeit one I think sounds dumbfuckish as all hell and ridiculously cheesy, but whatever. 'Concept album' has been beaten to death though, so I guess they needed something else to attribute a story told through music. I personally would only use the term for the more extravagant works like Coheed/TDH and since BTBAM themselves called CE a rock opera, I suppose that works as well.

Point is, don't get hung up on that wording. I did the same thing when Mr. Giles used the term to describe their (at the time) upcoming album and freaked out thinking it'd be this huge change in direction and a totally different experience but nope. Just a different term for the same shit. Apparently it's been used for a while but I hadn't heard it till that time, which wasn't that long ago at all. Just one of those things I guess. Who would'a thunk it? My friend the other day admitted he had no fucking clue what a kolache was. No idea. Granted, he lives in the boonies of Louisiana but still...

I digress. I'm excited that they're doing another concept album and I think that, however much bleu cheese is oozing out of it, it'll be an interesting and fun experience. SFAM is still one of a handful of concept albums that I can sit through entirely and not get bored. If this is an album that can tell a story I can actually follow and keeps my interest piqued while still getting me into the music, I'll be happy. I haven't liked DT's past couple albums aside from literally one or two songs so I'm not holding my breath but I think if anything could breathe new life into the band (for me), it'd be this. I'm all for the ridiculously fantastical, utterly insane sci/fi, preposterously obtuse, overly complicated stories so I have no worries about that aspect. 

[Kotowboy]

[LCArenas]

American Idiot was called a rock opera. That was basically just a story set to music.

With songs very loosely related to the actual story

This is going to be either one of the Top 4 albums they've ever released or one of the Bottom 3 they have. It's big, it's ambitious, and it's so absolutely full of itself that I can't see it coming up as mediocre in any way

[Lucien]

I'm all for the ridiculously fantastical, utterly insane sci/fi, preposterously obtuse, overly complicated stories so I have no worries about that aspect. 

What is your opinion on the emails that have been sent out, etc, that have been building the world, then?

[Madman Shepherd]

Dream Theater's SFAM is a rock opera.

...but I've never really heard it called that. 

If they are just calling it that because it sounds cooler, then fine.  I hope thats all it is. 

[Pax]

I'm sorry the "leaking" part is over now, because it wasn't real leaks where someone from inside publishes material on torrent, it was more of "discovering" new stuff by smart people here by legal means only (i.e. image searching and reading the source code, not actually hacking the site)
But if it makes DT sad, we won't do it anymore. Just imagine Petrucci scrolling down these messages and sees we know many things and surprises we actually weren't supposed to know yet, and sad face he would make... WE'RE SORRY, JP, JUST DON'T MAKE THE SAD FACE

[The Fatal Tragedy]

I don't think this was mentioned anywhere yet, but I noticed something interesting about the background image on the album website. In between the transition of the picture of the monastery and the design sketches of the NOMACS are numerous blades of grass that appear to be cut-out in a way that suggests that there is another image hiding behind it.
Here is a link to the background image for easier reference:
https://www.dreamtheater.net/sites/g/files/g2000003226/f/201511/Minisite_BG_LargerScreens_0.jpg

[EraVulgaris]

I feel (and fear) like this album could turn out like the last Ayreon record The Theory of Everything. The music is great and I love listening to the instrumental parts, but the lyrics are shallow at best and embarrasing at worst, it's really hard to ignore that while enjoying the music itself. I hope they really took their time with those lyrics.

[fadetoblackdude7]

I'm hoping for 10 tracks on each act. Hopefully they won't slack on the lengthier ones either

[jakepriest]

I feel (and fear) like this album could turn out like the last Ayreon record The Theory of Everything. The music is great and I love listening to the instrumental parts, but the lyrics are shallow at best and embarrasing at worst, it's really hard to ignore that while enjoying the music itself. I hope they really took their time with those lyrics.

The problem with The Theory of Everything aren't the lyrics but subpar vocal melodies, but then again I never pay any attention to lyrics so I don't mind however cheesy they are.

[EraVulgaris]

I feel (and fear) like this album could turn out like the last Ayreon record The Theory of Everything. The music is great and I love listening to the instrumental parts, but the lyrics are shallow at best and embarrasing at worst, it's really hard to ignore that while enjoying the music itself. I hope they really took their time with those lyrics.

The problem with The Theory of Everything aren't the lyrics but subpar vocal melodies, but then again I never pay any attention to lyrics so I don't mind however cheesy they are.

Teacher:
I can’t believe… this can’t be true.
How could you know?
I’ve tried to solve this
For as long as I recall

Is this your work? Be honest now
How did you do it?
I’m not angry, boy
But I really need to know

Prodigy:
I’m sorry, sir, I can’t explain
It’s the way I’ve always been
You see, the numbers just appear
Before my eyes


Rival:
Don’t believe him, no! He is envious!
I’ve felt it from the start
In every class, I’ve always been the genius
And he just wants to be like me

Don’t let him deceive you
He’s nothing but a fake
A sad pretender
Trying to take my place

Don’t let him deceive you
He’s nothing but a fake
A sad pretender
A total waste of space

Girl:
Why do you torment him, are you jealous?
There must be a reason you’re so cruel
What have you got against him?
Does he scare you?
What did he ever do to you?


Rival:
Oh no, I can’t believe
You’re falling for this loser
Oh no, I thought you knew
That I am so much cooler!

 

We'll see, though. I don't love the lyrics for SFAM either (don't care about the story at all), but can still listen to the music just fine.

[paulstfu]

The "Oh no, I thought you knew That I am so much cooler!" part made me chuckle the first time 

[jakepriest]

Oh lord I totally forgot about that part of Love and Envy.  Yeah that's pretty bad.
One can only hope the album turns out like The Human Equation in terms of music and vocals.

[Crow]

am i the only one hoping the album is only like 90ish minutes between both discs

[BlobVanDam]

am i the only one hoping the album is only like 90ish minutes between both discs

Nope. I'm definitely hoping for shorter rather than longer.

[Kotowboy]

am i the only one hoping the album is only like 90ish minutes between both discs

Nope. I'm definitely hoping for shorter rather than longer.

Biffy Clyro released a double album that was just under 40 minutes per disc. A slight shave and it could have fit on one CD.

One of the few double albums i've heard which isn't all great on the first CD and mostly good on the second CD.

Pretty strong throughout. But something like that could be good. 40 minutes per CD would be fine.

[BlobVanDam]

If it just happened to end up being longer than a regular disc because they still had to finish off the concept, it's all good, as long as it wasn't a case of "USE ALL THE SPACE!"

[Kotowboy]

If it just happened to end up being longer than a regular disc because they still had to finish off the concept, it's all good, as long as it wasn't a case of "USE ALL THE SPACE!"

Yeah even Metallica didn't release Load & Reload ALL AT ONCE. They were at least smart enough to release them a year apart..

2 hours and 40 minutes of new music is a lot to digest.

[Crow]

i'm gonna give it a caution listen if they stream the full album but i'm not sure if i'd want to pay for 120+ minutes of prog metal concept cheese anyways, blah 

[Kotowboy]

i'm gonna give it a caution listen if they stream the full album but i'm not sure if i'd want to pay for 120+ minutes of prog metal concept cheese anyways, blah 

Depends on the packaging too.

If the album is amazing and the artwork and packaging is amazing. I may get it on CD and Vinyl too just to look at.

[yorost]

All depends. Well done music is well done. If the musicians are going out and making what they want and loving it, length can be somewhat irrelevant. Some double discs are ear candy that fly by while some single discs are tough to stomach.

[ErHaO]

I feel (and fear) like this album could turn out like the last Ayreon record The Theory of Everything. The music is great and I love listening to the instrumental parts, but the lyrics are shallow at best and embarrasing at worst, it's really hard to ignore that while enjoying the music itself. I hope they really took their time with those lyrics.

The problem with The Theory of Everything aren't the lyrics but subpar vocal melodies, but then again I never pay any attention to lyrics so I don't mind however cheesy they are.

Teacher:
I can’t believe… this can’t be true.
How could you know?
I’ve tried to solve this
For as long as I recall

Is this your work? Be honest now
How did you do it?
I’m not angry, boy
But I really need to know

Prodigy:
I’m sorry, sir, I can’t explain
It’s the way I’ve always been
You see, the numbers just appear
Before my eyes


Rival:
Don’t believe him, no! He is envious!
I’ve felt it from the start
In every class, I’ve always been the genius
And he just wants to be like me

Don’t let him deceive you
He’s nothing but a fake
A sad pretender
Trying to take my place

Don’t let him deceive you
He’s nothing but a fake
A sad pretender
A total waste of space

Girl:
Why do you torment him, are you jealous?
There must be a reason you’re so cruel
What have you got against him?
Does he scare you?
What did he ever do to you?


Rival:
Oh no, I can’t believe
You’re falling for this loser
Oh no, I thought you knew
That I am so much cooler!

 

We'll see, though. I don't love the lyrics for SFAM either (don't care about the story at all), but can still listen to the music just fine.

To be fair, that part of the story is in highschool, so at least the teenage awkwardness makes sense. That said, I love the actual story told in Theory of Everything a lot. But the lyrics can indeed be a bit too literal at times.

[Rodni Demental]

I'd like to listen to it blind (deaf?, okay the saying doesn't really work here). 

If a single comes out, there's no chance I'm even slightly going to be able to resist listening to it. My best bet is to just stop looking for info. until the albums out. But curiosity always get's the better of me. 

[erwinrafael]

Some random thoughts on The Astonishing hype so far:

I've been listening repeatedly to ITPOE Pt. 1 and 2 since I read the news. I think we would be looking back on that song once this album comes out as something of a prototype idea.

I think this is not really a full JP project. For instance, LaBrie said in an interview once that he would be contributing lyrics to this album after he declined to write lyrics in the self-titled because he already spent a lot of creative energy for Impermanent Resonance.

Mangini's most recent post said "I'll be focusing most everything I do on this for a while: London, February 18th is the first night of the tour, and the worldwide premier of The Astonishing Live!" Given that it's November, it looks like Mike is involved in fixing and programming the click tracks for their sets. Back in September, he already posted this "There'll be a clinic or few popping up this fall between stuff I have to do to prepare for DT 2016" so he's been preparing way ahead of the tour.

And of course he posted this back in May:

"What have I been up to? Muaah ha ha ha ... it is a secret But I am hitting a lot of drums, smiling more than anyone should be allowed and burning a lot of calories too."

I have also been thinking a bit (overthinking most likely) and I am trying to find a connection between the Dream Theater album and The Astonishing. I remember them saying that the Dream Theater album would mark the direction the band would be taking moving forward, and what I see is that it looks like they are now putting emphasis on THEATER in the Dream Theater name.

For the last album, they aimed for a cinematic feel (whether they achieved it or not is a matter of opinion). They have an intro music, a closing credits music, the songs are sequenced like a show (the DT12 songs are actually played in the album order in the last tour), and they have been repeatedly using the term cinematic in describing the album as a whole and individual songs like The Bigger Picture and Illumination Theory. The last tour has the most integrated musical and visual experience so far.

And now they are doing a rock opera.

And for my final random thought, would the next tour again not feature any Images and Words song in the set? Is Dream Theater really moving forward confident that they need not live under the shadow of their biggest success?

[KevShmev]

Rock opera is just a fancy way of dressing up the phrase "concept album," especially since the definition of a concept album has been expanded to now include albums that are merely thematic in nature.  A rock opera is something that will tell a specific story (which is really just what a concept album should be). 

[ariich]

If it just happened to end up being longer than a regular disc because they still had to finish off the concept, it's all good, as long as it wasn't a case of "USE ALL THE SPACE!"

Even if it's two discs, which seems moderately likely right now, I'd be surprised if it was literally double-length, i.e. both discs filled. You never know though.

[erwinrafael]

Rock opera is just a fancy way of dressing up the phrase "concept album," especially since the definition of a concept album has been expanded to now include albums that are merely thematic in nature.  A rock opera is something that will tell a specific story (which is really just what a concept album should be).

Yeah. but as you said, concept album has now expanded its definition. Hand.Cannot. Erase, for example, is a concept album but it is not a rock opera. Maybe rock opera now refers specifically to albums with multiple characters speaking to each other.

[ariich]

Rock opera is just a fancy way of dressing up the phrase "concept album," especially since the definition of a concept album has been expanded to now include albums that are merely thematic in nature.  A rock opera is something that will tell a specific story (which is really just what a concept album should be).

Yeah. but as you said, concept album has now expanded its definition. Hand.Cannot. Erase, for example, is a concept album but it is not a rock opera. Maybe rock opera now refers specifically to albums with multiple characters speaking to each other.

There was definitely a definition that someone posted that made the distinction that in a rock opera, the lyrics are dialogue in a single story/narrative. Which makes sense.

All the same to me really, I'm not against the term "rock opera" but I don't use it either (EDIT: Except with things like Ayreon that use a full cast - that for me personally is the distinction).